Heaven: 2021 April Book Club - Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

MiliMili Shipmate
edited August 2022 in Limbo
We have chosen another classic for this month. I'm looking forward to hearing from Gaskell fans and new readers. The book is a long one, originally serialised before being published as a novel, and unfortunately Gaskell had not quite completed the book before her death in 1865. Some editions of the book end at this point, while others include a note by editor Frederick Greenwood, outlining as much as he knew of Gaskell's intended ending. I really wish I could read Gaskell's never-written ending! Maybe we can make some predictions of how she would have concluded the story. There is a free edition of the book on Gutenberg.org or the book can be bought cheaply as an ebook. It is also any easy book to acquire second hand.

I will write discussion questions and post them around the 20th of April. Feel free to add more questions or take the discussion on tangents. For the first time we are also considering running a Zoom Book Club meeting towards the end of April if we can find a suitable date and time and work out the logistics. I have done quite a bit of Zooming, but have never actually led or even attended a book club discussion in person or via video and am also in a different time zone (Australian Eastern Standard Time) than most other members. So if somebody wants to put their hand up to lead the Zoom meeting discussion, please let me know. You would be welcome to use my questions as a jumping off point or come up with your own discussion starters.

There is also a 1999 BBC adaption in the form of a four part series. It is fairly faithful to the book, from memory, but has a modified ending.
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Comments

  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    So glad we are doing this as it is one of my favourite books. I'm already in a zoom book group but I'm not sure about committing to leading a discussion as one I don't have the professional version of zoom and two we hope to be moving shortly and goodness knows if I'll have access to the internet or even exactly where I'll be.
    I enjoyed the BBC series, I might try to track that down.
  • MooMoo Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Sarasa wrote: »
    So glad we are doing this as it is one of my favourite books.

    Mine too.

  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I read this online a few weeks ago and was blown away. Looking forward to the conversation.

    I'm not able to do Zoom, I tried to join the Ship services and couldn't get visuals or sound. Not enough software memory. This last week I finally received an upgraded Samsung Tablet with microphone and tried that out, no luck.
  • HelixHelix Shipmate
    I'm really struggling with this book. I have determination stamped all over me and really hope to make it to the end but there are so many words! Regardless, I'm about 1/6th of the way through.

    I found it really helped reading the synopsis before hand as I think I would have been pretty lost by now.

    It's not entirely unenjoyable, there are some very clever and amusing observations, but it is a struggle.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Just ordered it from our university library system.
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    This is one of my top ten favourite novels. Maybe top five, actually.

    An interesting tangent re the BBC adaptation: a journalist who was doing TV reviews for the Observer at the time (Kathryn Flett) criticised the production for “modernising” the dialogue. Unfortunately for her, the example she chose to illustrate her point was actually a direct quote from the book, as a number of her readers noticed. Mrs Gaskell had an extremely good ear for authentic dialogue among a variety of people and often sounds more modern than you would expect.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    This is in my top five too. I've just re-read the first chapter and Gaskell's abilities with character and dialogue are amazing.
    Gaskell is someone I'd love to have round for dinner, she sounds such a generous and sensible person.
    A couple of years ago I went to her house, and if you are ever in Manchester and it's open I thoroughly recommend it.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I haven't read it before, just downloaded it from the library last night and started the first chapter. It is long, but I think I'll be sufficiently engaged to have read it in time for discussion.
  • HelixHelix Shipmate
    I started to feel inspired by it last night - about 120 pages in - I think reading the comments here made me realise how there are some beautiful observations and dialogues, also beginning to find the characters more interesting. So thank you for positive comments on the book which are helping me not only persevere, but enjoy.

    Not sure I will finish it by the end of the month tho ...!
  • BelisariusBelisarius Admin Emeritus
    edited April 2021
    I liked the novel well enough, but it didn't engross me as other authors have. I found the story structure and character development a little old-fashioned (made me think of a less cynical Trollope). Also, the historical setting of the story is close enough to that of Middlemarch to warrant comparisons (which may not be completely fair, but still).

    I was interested in what dialogue Kathryn Flett thought was too modern and found this article. Where do they get these people? It reminds me of the (1800s) Anti-Purcell musicologist who claimed that he was obviously influenced by Bach.

    Agree with Greenwood that Cynthia was the most interesting character.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    After posting the link to Elizabeth Gaskell house I ended up signing up to their book discussion for this month which is looking at Margaret Oliphant’s Hester. I’ve read other of Oliphant’s works but not this one. I’m going to be well immersed in the 19th century this month.
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    Great article link, Belisarius! Thank you.
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    One of my housemates has the miniseries on DVD, so I plan to try to watch it again before the discussion. I think I last watched it when it was on Netflix about 3 years ago.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I'm really getting into this now. So many thoughts; looking forward to the discussion.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Also have just discovered our library has the series on DVD so might try to watch that after reading the book.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Just picked up my copy. Is it bloody long enough?
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    It is long. Originally it was serialised so original readers must have read it in over a year. I remember why this is only the second time I have read it. However, once you get past the first few chapters it becomes more engaging and easier to read more in a day if you like 19th century romance. There are some pretty awful bits about 'Africans' and women that would improve the book by being removed, but accurately show the awful attitudes of the time.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Caissa wrote: »
    Just picked up my copy. Is it bloody long enough?

    :lol:

    I already had it on my shelf so have been reading it on and off (pretty "on" at the moment, obviously) for weeks, knowing the size of it. I've always got several books on the go anyway, but don't think I could read it solely, without other things alongside.
  • MooMoo Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I already have it on my Kindle. I'm in the process of re-reading it.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    I'm reading it, but have got totally side tracked by Oliphant's Hester for the Gaskell House discussion this month. I may not have finished Wives and Daughters by the 20th, but I've read it so many times I think I'll be fine to discuss it anyway.
    I find the first chapter with the very young Molly at the Towers totally entrancing, I want to live in the world of Gaskell's early 19th century Cheshire.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Mili wrote: »
    It is long. Originally it was serialised so original readers must have read it in over a year. I remember why this is only the second time I have read it. However, once you get past the first few chapters it becomes more engaging and easier to read more in a day if you like 19th century romance. There are some pretty awful bits about 'Africans' and women that would improve the book by being removed, but accurately show the awful attitudes of the time.

    They did make me wince, but are very much of the time. I'd like to say more when we start discussing the novel.

    One association struck me though: we know that Molly Gibson's governess is named Miss Eyre and this is an obvious intertextual reference to Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre. Elizabeth Gaskell was Charlotte's biographer and knew all the sisters' novels well. She would have read about Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights and his swarthy dark complexion, always regarded with some suspicion in Gaskell's novels as a sign of foreignness, unsavory Catholic connections or heathen origins. Many literary critics believe that Heathcliff may have been black: he is found in the streets of Liverpool by Mr Earnshaw at a time, 1801, when the Liverpool Caribbean slave trade was at its apex. The child is 'black as the devil' and referred to as 'it' until after the family christens him Heathcliff. He speaks some kind of unknown gibberish (not Romany which would have been familiar) although it is thought to be of gipsy origin. He might be a little Lascar (Indian) or he might be Mr Earnshaw's son by a black woman.

    Nelly says to Heathcliff, “If you were a regular black …” which can be read as meaning 'You're black but not a slave or regular black among black people, you are a black man out of place'.

    And later, Nelly asks Heathcliff: “Who knows but your father was Emperor of China, and your mother an Indian queen?”

    The exoticising and Othering are undeniable and yet Emily Bronte may have been one of the few British writers to create a black character of such intensity and power. That Elizabeth Gaskell finds Africa so necessary as a destination for scientific study for Roger might indicate some kind of need to explore blackness, to reach beyond English village life.

  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    I love your posts @MaryLouise - always so interesting and thought-provoking.

    I'm partway through the chapter of Cynthia's Big Reveal. My deah - just too thrilling for words!
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    That's such interesting information @MaryLouise.
    When I went to Elizabeth Gaskell House a couple of years ago they told me a lovely story about Elizabeth Gaskell and Charlotte Bronte. Bronte was visiting Gaskell and a neighbour called round wanting to see the famous author. When Gaskell took the neighbour into the drawing room there was no sign of Bronte. After the neighbour had left Bronte creeped out from behind the curtain where she was hiding.
    I stand in awe of Victorian women authors such as Gaskell who wrote their novels in the midst of family life, writing chapters between running a house and mending children's clothes.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Nenya wrote: »
    I love your posts @MaryLouise - always so interesting and thought-provoking.

    I'm partway through the chapter of Cynthia's Big Reveal. My deah - just too thrilling for words!

    Thanks, Nenya. Agreed on the suspense around Cynthia — I'm also smitten with Lady Harriet!
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Sarasa, that anecdote is so Charlotte Bronte! The sheer industry of writers like Gaskell and George Eliot is hard to think about now that we have so much technology to help us input, copy, edit, revise, publish online etc. Many women writers had servants (housekeepers, cooks and housemaids) and without the childcare provided by nursemaids or governesses, they wouldn't have had the time. Even so, most women did far more household chores and caretaking than men. I'm looking forward to talking about governesses and stepmothers.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I get the impression that for a lot of people on this thread this is a reread, while for me it is a first time through and I have such strong feelings about many of the characters and the choices they are making! I haven't gotten to Cynthia's big reveal yet although I have my suspicions about what her secret is; will be interested to see if I'm right. Really looking forward to this discussion.
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    edited April 2021
    It will be fun to read the reactions of first time readers! I am enjoying it for the second time, but found a few bits jarring as I have watched the miniseries more often and they didn't include the offensive racism as excluding it has no impact on the plot. A sensible, caring character such as Dr. Gibson making jokes about Africans not being known for their reasoning skills is shocking for a modern reader. I also forgot how creepy the villain is and how sadly similar his actions are to stories we read today, except now texting and social media plays a role. Victim blaming sadly hasn't yet disappeared either. Loving rereading all the intrigues and character arcs otherwise.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Technically it is a reread for me as I've had it on my shelf since university days and must have read it during the course of my degree, but I confess I don't remember anything about it so I am in practice a first time reader. I must have a hunt for the miniseries; I'm wondering if it's on Netflix?
  • HelixHelix Shipmate
    It's my first time on it - and after the initial frustration I felt - I'm loving it. It's so different from anything else I have read. I am glad I read the synopsis first so I could get a sense of the characters and the plot because otherwise I think I would be lost. I'm a bit of a skim reader - inate lack of patience.

    I'm looking forward to the big reveal of Cynthia.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    She has just REVEALED ALL in the bit I've read and I'm happy to say it was exactly what I expected; the hints were pretty broad. But no spoilers to anyone else who, like myself and @Helix , is reading it for the first time.
  • BelisariusBelisarius Admin Emeritus
    edited April 2021
    From the same hints, I thought it was going to be worse.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    If it was a piece of historical fiction by a modern writer I would have expected it to be worse. But more of this when discussion officially starts!!
  • HelixHelix Shipmate
    Thanks for the lack of spoilers - I am now caught up on the terrible secret!
  • HelixHelix Shipmate
    Well I've finished it now - a bout of insomnia gave me the time and opportunity for a long, late read.

    really grateful to all those who posted how much they loved this book. Such comments gave me a lot of encouragement to persevere as I really struggled at the beginning but am glad that I did keep going and made it through.
  • MooMoo Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    At the time it was written, people liked long novels because there were not many other things to do.
  • If you were of the leisured class
  • TukaiTukai Shipmate
    One glance at my wife's copy and I thought "too long for me".

    (The last really long book I read was War and Peace, but that was 10 years ago while I was waiting for and then recovering from heart surgery, so I had plenty of time!)
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    It was very long but it actually took me less than a week to read it -- I found it kept up a pretty good pace. I'm also done now and looking to borrow the miniseries from the library to watch this week.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I decided to pass given its length.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    I finished it this morning, on the patio with a coffee. :smile:
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    Here are the questions for this month. We haven't discussed the possibility of a Zoom discussion any further, but please let the group know if you would like to organise one. As usual feel free to ask more questions, go off on tangents and post any interesting links about the book or its themes.

    1. Did Dr. Gibson make a wise choice in marrying Hyacinth Kirkpatrick/Clare? Would staying single or marrying one of the other eligible village women have been a better choice?

    2. A lot of the plot points centred around secrets that various characters were keeping from their children, parents and fiancés. Do you feel this was mainly to create an interesting plot or reflective of real life at the time?

    3. Which character did you most relate to?

    4. Did you find Molly or Cynthia to be the more engaging character?

    5. Does the concept of ‘honourable blood’ still exist among people of British ancestry? Do these attitudes to hereditary differ between those of British ancestry in the United Kingdom and people of British ancestry elsewhere in the world?

    6. Does the book demonstrate that money cannot buy happiness or the things that matter in life?

    7. The book is set in the 1820s and 1830s at a time of scientific discovery. Did you find it surprising that Roger is not considered to have a true profession despite his employment as a scientist/naturalist?

    8. In the nineteenth century, some people believed that novels or certain types of novels could morally corrupt. Many more argued that novels were only okay if they portrayed and taught good morals. Given that Molly is encouraged by her father to read a ‘trashy novel’ when she is unwell, it seems Gaskell does not fully share this view. The relationship between Osborne and Aimee shows a successful relationship between a nobleman and a servant that ends in legitimate marriage and shared parenthood, whereas often these relationships ended with the woman being abandoned and sometimes left with a child they could not support. Could Gaskell be seen as tempting young working-class women to a moral ‘fall’ through this plotline?

    9. In the concluding remarks http://www.online-literature.com/elizabeth_gaskell/wives_daughters/60/, Frederick Greenwood, editor of ‘The Cornhill’ magazine states, “you feel yourself caught out of an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions, into one where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter, but where it is possible for people to live calm and wholesome lives; and, what is more, you feel that this is at least as real a world as the other.” Does this suggest that as true to life as it may seem to modern readers, the novel is not a true reflection of life at the time or that it only reflects the world of a minority of society at the time?

    10. Any suggestions for how Gaskell may have written the ending, had she lived or how you would like the book to have ended?

  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    Thanks for those @Mili, I'll reflect on those questions and answer them after I've finished my (third? fourth?) reread.
    As for a zoom chat, I can set on up, but I don't have the professional version so we'd be limited to 40 minutes. That might be enough time to discuss one or two points or a character or two. Anyone else got the professional version?
  • MooMoo Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    1) Dr. Gibson would have been much better off not marrying Hyacinth. There do not appear to have been any women in the village who would have made suitable wives for him.

    4) I like Molly much better than Cynthia, but Cynthia is very interesting to read about.
  • gustavagustava Shipmate Posts: 37
    Re the Zoom chat, you could stop after 40 minutes to boil the kettle and make a cup of tea before starting a new meeting in 5-10 minutes. This works well for one of the small groups at the church I go to. This is also a suggestion for others as I don't like using Zoom.

    I'm still making my way through the book (cheated and read the plot synopsis online) - re question 1, couldn't Dr Gibson have married one of the Miss Brownings? I agree Hyacinth was not a good choice
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    Thanks for the tips gustava. I wonder how the story would have turned out if Dr. Gibson had married Phoebe Browning instead. He could have also married someone considered beneath his class - he would have known everybody in the village and was not as class-conscious as some of the other characters. It's interesting that he had no problem with Molly or Cynthia marrying above their class, but didn't consider women of a lower class to him as potential wives. Perhaps due to wanting a mother figure for Molly as his main motive for marrying.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Mr Gibson is said to be a bit passive about marriage - "drifting into matrimony" while Molly is away - and as he wanted a mother figure for her perhaps he felt someone who was already a mother would be better than someone unmarried. It clearly wasn't a good choice (I found myself muttering from time to time about "that insufferable Cynthia and her equally insufferable mother") but if he hadn't we wouldn't have had the relationship and contrast between Cynthia and Molly.

    I found myself more tolerant of Cynthia once we knew a bit more about her upbringing but was permanently irritated by how emotionally immature she seemed to remain, and much preferred Molly.

    The version I have has an afterword by the Cornhill editor, detailing what he knew of Mrs Gaskell's plans for the ending. I won't say more yet in case some people haven't finished reading.
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    I would like to join the Zoom discussion if possible!
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    Re other marriage choices: I think Mr Gibson would have found Phoebe Browning equally illogical and exasperating, and less attractive. I don’t think he was particularly hung up about class, but he was a healthy, active middle-aged man who was considered “eligible” and physical attractiveness was important to him. It wasn’t till later that he was confronted with Hyacinth’s appalling lack of integrity.

    He wanted a suitable chaperone for Molly, and perhaps someone who would give Molly more opportunities in society. All he knew of Hyacinth was that she was respected by the Cumnors, had been kind to Molly at the Towers, had a daughter of the same age, and had experience of educating girls - all of which sounded ideal for Molly.

    If he had had any opportunity to discuss his interest in Hyacinth with Molly, I don’t think the marriage would have taken place.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    It's only on this read of the book that I've got slightly annoyed with Mr Gibson rushing into marriage with Hyacinth Kirkpatrick to provide the chaperone he thinks Molly needs. Molly was a sensible young woman and I doubt that she would have had her head turned by Mr Coxe. It was a shame that Mrs Hamley was so unwell as she could have become a proper mother substitute without Mr Gibson having to marry anyone at all.

    As for zoom discussion what time would work best given that we are in so many different time zones. I was thinking maybe sometime on either this Saturday or the one after, though I couldn't do between 2.00 and 4.00 on the 1st May
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    I can’t do this Saturday but can do the one after.
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