Heaven: 2021 April Book Club - Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
We have chosen another classic for this month. I'm looking forward to hearing from Gaskell fans and new readers. The book is a long one, originally serialised before being published as a novel, and unfortunately Gaskell had not quite completed the book before her death in 1865. Some editions of the book end at this point, while others include a note by editor Frederick Greenwood, outlining as much as he knew of Gaskell's intended ending. I really wish I could read Gaskell's never-written ending! Maybe we can make some predictions of how she would have concluded the story. There is a free edition of the book on Gutenberg.org or the book can be bought cheaply as an ebook. It is also any easy book to acquire second hand.
I will write discussion questions and post them around the 20th of April. Feel free to add more questions or take the discussion on tangents. For the first time we are also considering running a Zoom Book Club meeting towards the end of April if we can find a suitable date and time and work out the logistics. I have done quite a bit of Zooming, but have never actually led or even attended a book club discussion in person or via video and am also in a different time zone (Australian Eastern Standard Time) than most other members. So if somebody wants to put their hand up to lead the Zoom meeting discussion, please let me know. You would be welcome to use my questions as a jumping off point or come up with your own discussion starters.
There is also a 1999 BBC adaption in the form of a four part series. It is fairly faithful to the book, from memory, but has a modified ending.
I will write discussion questions and post them around the 20th of April. Feel free to add more questions or take the discussion on tangents. For the first time we are also considering running a Zoom Book Club meeting towards the end of April if we can find a suitable date and time and work out the logistics. I have done quite a bit of Zooming, but have never actually led or even attended a book club discussion in person or via video and am also in a different time zone (Australian Eastern Standard Time) than most other members. So if somebody wants to put their hand up to lead the Zoom meeting discussion, please let me know. You would be welcome to use my questions as a jumping off point or come up with your own discussion starters.
There is also a 1999 BBC adaption in the form of a four part series. It is fairly faithful to the book, from memory, but has a modified ending.
Comments
I enjoyed the BBC series, I might try to track that down.
Mine too.
I'm not able to do Zoom, I tried to join the Ship services and couldn't get visuals or sound. Not enough software memory. This last week I finally received an upgraded Samsung Tablet with microphone and tried that out, no luck.
I found it really helped reading the synopsis before hand as I think I would have been pretty lost by now.
It's not entirely unenjoyable, there are some very clever and amusing observations, but it is a struggle.
An interesting tangent re the BBC adaptation: a journalist who was doing TV reviews for the Observer at the time (Kathryn Flett) criticised the production for “modernising” the dialogue. Unfortunately for her, the example she chose to illustrate her point was actually a direct quote from the book, as a number of her readers noticed. Mrs Gaskell had an extremely good ear for authentic dialogue among a variety of people and often sounds more modern than you would expect.
Gaskell is someone I'd love to have round for dinner, she sounds such a generous and sensible person.
A couple of years ago I went to her house, and if you are ever in Manchester and it's open I thoroughly recommend it.
Not sure I will finish it by the end of the month tho ...!
I was interested in what dialogue Kathryn Flett thought was too modern and found this article. Where do they get these people? It reminds me of the (1800s) Anti-Purcell musicologist who claimed that he was obviously influenced by Bach.
Agree with Greenwood that Cynthia was the most interesting character.
I already had it on my shelf so have been reading it on and off (pretty "on" at the moment, obviously) for weeks, knowing the size of it. I've always got several books on the go anyway, but don't think I could read it solely, without other things alongside.
I find the first chapter with the very young Molly at the Towers totally entrancing, I want to live in the world of Gaskell's early 19th century Cheshire.
They did make me wince, but are very much of the time. I'd like to say more when we start discussing the novel.
One association struck me though: we know that Molly Gibson's governess is named Miss Eyre and this is an obvious intertextual reference to Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre. Elizabeth Gaskell was Charlotte's biographer and knew all the sisters' novels well. She would have read about Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights and his swarthy dark complexion, always regarded with some suspicion in Gaskell's novels as a sign of foreignness, unsavory Catholic connections or heathen origins. Many literary critics believe that Heathcliff may have been black: he is found in the streets of Liverpool by Mr Earnshaw at a time, 1801, when the Liverpool Caribbean slave trade was at its apex. The child is 'black as the devil' and referred to as 'it' until after the family christens him Heathcliff. He speaks some kind of unknown gibberish (not Romany which would have been familiar) although it is thought to be of gipsy origin. He might be a little Lascar (Indian) or he might be Mr Earnshaw's son by a black woman.
Nelly says to Heathcliff, “If you were a regular black …” which can be read as meaning 'You're black but not a slave or regular black among black people, you are a black man out of place'.
And later, Nelly asks Heathcliff: “Who knows but your father was Emperor of China, and your mother an Indian queen?”
The exoticising and Othering are undeniable and yet Emily Bronte may have been one of the few British writers to create a black character of such intensity and power. That Elizabeth Gaskell finds Africa so necessary as a destination for scientific study for Roger might indicate some kind of need to explore blackness, to reach beyond English village life.
I'm partway through the chapter of Cynthia's Big Reveal. My deah - just too thrilling for words!
When I went to Elizabeth Gaskell House a couple of years ago they told me a lovely story about Elizabeth Gaskell and Charlotte Bronte. Bronte was visiting Gaskell and a neighbour called round wanting to see the famous author. When Gaskell took the neighbour into the drawing room there was no sign of Bronte. After the neighbour had left Bronte creeped out from behind the curtain where she was hiding.
I stand in awe of Victorian women authors such as Gaskell who wrote their novels in the midst of family life, writing chapters between running a house and mending children's clothes.
Thanks, Nenya. Agreed on the suspense around Cynthia — I'm also smitten with Lady Harriet!
I'm looking forward to the big reveal of Cynthia.
really grateful to all those who posted how much they loved this book. Such comments gave me a lot of encouragement to persevere as I really struggled at the beginning but am glad that I did keep going and made it through.
(The last really long book I read was War and Peace, but that was 10 years ago while I was waiting for and then recovering from heart surgery, so I had plenty of time!)
1. Did Dr. Gibson make a wise choice in marrying Hyacinth Kirkpatrick/Clare? Would staying single or marrying one of the other eligible village women have been a better choice?
2. A lot of the plot points centred around secrets that various characters were keeping from their children, parents and fiancés. Do you feel this was mainly to create an interesting plot or reflective of real life at the time?
3. Which character did you most relate to?
4. Did you find Molly or Cynthia to be the more engaging character?
5. Does the concept of ‘honourable blood’ still exist among people of British ancestry? Do these attitudes to hereditary differ between those of British ancestry in the United Kingdom and people of British ancestry elsewhere in the world?
6. Does the book demonstrate that money cannot buy happiness or the things that matter in life?
7. The book is set in the 1820s and 1830s at a time of scientific discovery. Did you find it surprising that Roger is not considered to have a true profession despite his employment as a scientist/naturalist?
8. In the nineteenth century, some people believed that novels or certain types of novels could morally corrupt. Many more argued that novels were only okay if they portrayed and taught good morals. Given that Molly is encouraged by her father to read a ‘trashy novel’ when she is unwell, it seems Gaskell does not fully share this view. The relationship between Osborne and Aimee shows a successful relationship between a nobleman and a servant that ends in legitimate marriage and shared parenthood, whereas often these relationships ended with the woman being abandoned and sometimes left with a child they could not support. Could Gaskell be seen as tempting young working-class women to a moral ‘fall’ through this plotline?
9. In the concluding remarks http://www.online-literature.com/elizabeth_gaskell/wives_daughters/60/, Frederick Greenwood, editor of ‘The Cornhill’ magazine states, “you feel yourself caught out of an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions, into one where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter, but where it is possible for people to live calm and wholesome lives; and, what is more, you feel that this is at least as real a world as the other.” Does this suggest that as true to life as it may seem to modern readers, the novel is not a true reflection of life at the time or that it only reflects the world of a minority of society at the time?
10. Any suggestions for how Gaskell may have written the ending, had she lived or how you would like the book to have ended?
As for a zoom chat, I can set on up, but I don't have the professional version so we'd be limited to 40 minutes. That might be enough time to discuss one or two points or a character or two. Anyone else got the professional version?
4) I like Molly much better than Cynthia, but Cynthia is very interesting to read about.
I'm still making my way through the book (cheated and read the plot synopsis online) - re question 1, couldn't Dr Gibson have married one of the Miss Brownings? I agree Hyacinth was not a good choice
I found myself more tolerant of Cynthia once we knew a bit more about her upbringing but was permanently irritated by how emotionally immature she seemed to remain, and much preferred Molly.
The version I have has an afterword by the Cornhill editor, detailing what he knew of Mrs Gaskell's plans for the ending. I won't say more yet in case some people haven't finished reading.
He wanted a suitable chaperone for Molly, and perhaps someone who would give Molly more opportunities in society. All he knew of Hyacinth was that she was respected by the Cumnors, had been kind to Molly at the Towers, had a daughter of the same age, and had experience of educating girls - all of which sounded ideal for Molly.
If he had had any opportunity to discuss his interest in Hyacinth with Molly, I don’t think the marriage would have taken place.
As for zoom discussion what time would work best given that we are in so many different time zones. I was thinking maybe sometime on either this Saturday or the one after, though I couldn't do between 2.00 and 4.00 on the 1st May