If there's one thing the Ship, and especially Mystery Worship, has taught me, it's that there are many different ways of praising God. All are free to choose which way they are most comfortable with -- or indeed, to make up their own way. In my Father's house there are indeed many mansions.
and Bishop Jonathan (so not the bishop of London) in their usual place in the roman Canon.
Bishop Jonathan being bishop of Fulham, which is hardly surprising given that under the London Plan that's who London delegates episcopal oversight to for Traditionalist parishes.
FWIW, and even from that wing of the church I think it's great and was relieved when there was a clear out of the more rigid to the Ordinariate, I think relations between the current London and the current Fulham look pretty good, and there is (from pictures) far more evidence of +Sarah actually being invited to Fulham things (and more to the point *going*) than could have been imagined 10 years ago under a much spikier Fulham.
I remain convinced that the remaining Trads actually want to make a go of this. I certainly do - and it's much easier now the real Anglo Papalists aren't in charge at Forward in Faith/The Society.
Mind you, I think a discussion of the effect that the "clear out of the more rigid to the Ordinariate" has had on the Forward in Faith movement, minus its "real Anglo Papalists," would be an interesting one -- minus the weighted terminology, I should hope -- but not on this thread, please.
Doesn't the prayer book and/or the Canons require the service to be in the vernacular?
To be clear, Article XXIV of the Articles of Religion does not use the word "vernacular", but says that it is "repugnant to the Word of God... to have [the service]... in a tongue not understanded of the people," presumably meaning the people present. At my Anglican undergraduate college in Toronto, the settings were sometimes Latin (translated in the pamphlet), and there was on rarer occasion Latin spoken (ditto). That chaplain, though, was a bit eccentric, taught philosophy in the divinity school, and a course on neo-platonism in the university's philosophy department. His successor was lower church and more Reform minded, and discontinued those practices.
The one Old Catholic Church parish that I occasionally visited did the Tridentine Mass in Latin, and they provided a translation as well. I suppose one could make the argument that the use of Latin with printed translation still excludes people on the basis of illiteracy.
I have not had the pleasure of worshipping at St Magnus, but our Australian country parish has a strong link, as it was the family church of our founding benefactor. The family initially lived and traded on London Bridge and then moved opposite Fishmonger's Hall. The generosity referred to in the report was echoed at the time of the 175th anniversary of Anglican worship here, when the parish archivist provided copious references to assist in the preparation of a commemorative book. Mrs BA and I hope to visit post-COVID if our advancing years allow.
I know nothing of the liturgical niceties. All I know is that each time I have attended Mass at St Magnus The Martyr I feel uplifted and confirmed in my Christian Faith.
It does me good.
I know nothing of the liturgical niceties. All I know is that each time I have attended Mass at St Magnus The Martyr I feel uplifted and confirmed in my Christian Faith.
It does me good.
I enjoyed reading this report. St. Magnus is a church I know well and I have been there many times (intermittently) over the years. I thoroughly agree with the sentiments expressed and were I the mystery worshipper, my assessment would have been similar!
The Rector (uniquely styled 'Cardinal Rector') is [name redacted], who has been in post for a good number of years. Since he took over, he has introduced some ambitious plans to enhance his Church. In this otherwise excellent report, I spot no mention of the ringing peal of bells, which he has had installed in the church-tower. He went the 'whole hog' and had a "full" ring of 12 bells installed. The previous ring of 10 bells was destroyed in 1940, due to war-time enemy damage, and was never installed again until the present Rector's time. I am a bellringer, but I have not reached the standard of ringing "Surprise Maximus", which is possible on 12 bells. I have yet to ring at St. Magnus. I understand that Sunday morning ringing takes place after the service of High Mass from around 12.15 pm. This is to fit in with the availability of the band of ringers who also ring elsewhere locally, earlier on a Sunday morning. Not all ringers are church-goers and those that are, don't necessarily attend church where they ring. I believe that the band of ringers are all members of the "Society of College Youths" (or similar) and capable of very advanced ringing.
Yes. I think it was always allowed in Universities where the language would be understood. I believe the BCP was translated into Latin soon after its publication.
No-one is saying that the readings and sermon are in Latin.
I see from their website that the High Mass at 11 a.m. on Sundays is generally live streamed.
Might it be a good idea to watch and find out answers to at least some of the questions put ?
Unfortunately that is when I play at Mass.
Livestream can be watched retrospectively, which is how I do it.
I know nothing of the liturgical niceties. All I know is that each time I have attended Mass at St Magnus The Martyr I feel uplifted and confirmed in my Christian Faith.
It does me good.
You can watch this space for 16th April, which is St. Magnus Day when the patronal festival is kept. But in the coming year of 2022, this is Holy Saturday, when it will need to be transferred. [name redacted] - the present Rector - has been in post since 2003, so nearly 20 years already. I know some-one who is an altar server at St. Magnus.
Well, if the MW Report of a service on an *ordinary* Sunday is anything to go by, I daresay they'll pull out all the stops (literally) for their Patronal Mass!
I appreciate that it will need to be transferred in 2022, but I hope someone can MW the service, whenever it takes place.
I think it's Ship policy now for MW Reports not to name the names of those taking the service etc.
It is. Once a name is included in a report or post it then contains personal data, and is potentially subject to data protection legislation. We might be acting cautiously in not using names, it's not the only example of where we're cautious over issues that could result in either legal hot water or simply a lot of work for us.
I think it's Ship policy now for MW Reports not to name the names of those taking the service etc.
It is some years since I was active as a mystery worshipper. I clearly remember that it was normal practice, at that time, to give names of officiating clergy; but the subsequent GDPR development was something I had not picked up.
It has been a long time that I have not logged on s-o-f - out of the habit - so when I returned a week or two ago, staring me straight in the face, was the topic of St. Magnus the Martyr, which is right up my street!
If the church advertises the names of the clergy, surely they are already in the public domain. Same for the organist, parish councillors, youth workers etc where listed on their web-site/magazine.
If the church advertises the names of the clergy, surely they are already in the public domain. Same for the organist, parish councillors, youth workers etc where listed on their web-site/magazine.
I am sure you are right; this is illogical and society has gone mad over things like that. I feel there is no answer to that.
If the church advertises the names of the clergy, surely they are already in the public domain. Same for the organist, parish councillors, youth workers etc where listed on their web-site/magazine.
I’m sure someone can correct me if I’m wrong, and I may well be wrong. But I think the issue is not whether the name is publicly known or available elsewhere, but rather whether the individual has consented for their personal information to be posted here. I think it may also be that if the Ship posts personal information, even if publicly available elsewhere, then requirements may be legally imposed on the Ship to maintain that information with specific safeguards.
This is not the place to discuss this issue. Any concerns re GDPR or the publishing of names should be brought to the Styx.
I will only say that we are acting out of an abundance of caution. Reports that were published before GDPR took effect, and which contain persons' names, will remain as-is. Reports published after GDPR took effect, and all comments made on all reports regardless of publication date, will not contain persons' names unless they can be considered "newsworthy" (e.g. a report on a state funeral).
Whether or not names are published elsewhere, including on the churches' own websites, is irrelevant for our purposes.
Amos - I dont think its true that many City of London (i.e.Square Mile) churches are HTB - and there is in truth a spectacular Sunday range on offer.
If St Magnus is one Latin declension too far, and St Helen Bishopsgate too Calvinist in its HTB-influenced ways the other options on the spectrum are: middle of the road all Hallows by the Tower; Book of Common Prayer at St James Garlickhithe or at St Peter's Cornhill; Modern Catholic at St Vedast and smokey Catholic at St Barts; St Sepulchre's have started opening on Sundays in a HTB sort of way; and there are services in Welsh at St Benets and in German for Lutheran minded Anglicans at St Mary at HIll, whilst the LGBTQ+friendly award goes to St Botolph's Aldgate and the award for the classiest professional choir to St Bride's. There is of course the Cathedral which tries, mostly successfully, to straddle the traditions. So oooodles of alternatives. All the City of London churches now need is bigger congregations, which may be a challenge as very few people live in the area these days.
Well, Ms Amanda, He doubtless speaks all languages of the earth including those now extinct, but after His incarnation there was a preference for Aramiac, the same language that the angel is likely to have used to Mary. https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/what-language-did-jesus-speak
He probably had proficient Hebrew (proficiently enough to debate with the temple rabbis so He likely put it on his CV), Greek and Latin (both used to defend Himself before Pilate). But all the signs are that His 'mother tongue' was Aramaic, sadly a language that in 2021 is rapidly heading for extinction.
Comments
Including celebrating the younger one's birthday there after mass.
Welcome aboard @DrAngelicus, and thanks for such a positive comment!
Bishop Jonathan being bishop of Fulham, which is hardly surprising given that under the London Plan that's who London delegates episcopal oversight to for Traditionalist parishes.
FWIW, and even from that wing of the church I think it's great and was relieved when there was a clear out of the more rigid to the Ordinariate, I think relations between the current London and the current Fulham look pretty good, and there is (from pictures) far more evidence of +Sarah actually being invited to Fulham things (and more to the point *going*) than could have been imagined 10 years ago under a much spikier Fulham.
I remain convinced that the remaining Trads actually want to make a go of this. I certainly do - and it's much easier now the real Anglo Papalists aren't in charge at Forward in Faith/The Society.
@Amanda B Reckondwyth
Lead Editor, Mystery Worship
You stopped me just in time.
To be clear, Article XXIV of the Articles of Religion does not use the word "vernacular", but says that it is "repugnant to the Word of God... to have [the service]... in a tongue not understanded of the people," presumably meaning the people present. At my Anglican undergraduate college in Toronto, the settings were sometimes Latin (translated in the pamphlet), and there was on rarer occasion Latin spoken (ditto). That chaplain, though, was a bit eccentric, taught philosophy in the divinity school, and a course on neo-platonism in the university's philosophy department. His successor was lower church and more Reform minded, and discontinued those practices.
The one Old Catholic Church parish that I occasionally visited did the Tridentine Mass in Latin, and they provided a translation as well. I suppose one could make the argument that the use of Latin with printed translation still excludes people on the basis of illiteracy.
It does me good.
No-one is saying that the readings and sermon are in Latin.
Livestream can be watched retrospectively, which is how I do it.
This (and welcome aboard @Peter Bartlett , too).
I appreciate that it will need to be transferred in 2022, but I hope someone can MW the service, whenever it takes place.
It is some years since I was active as a mystery worshipper. I clearly remember that it was normal practice, at that time, to give names of officiating clergy; but the subsequent GDPR development was something I had not picked up.
It has been a long time that I have not logged on s-o-f - out of the habit - so when I returned a week or two ago, staring me straight in the face, was the topic of St. Magnus the Martyr, which is right up my street!
I am sure you are right; this is illogical and society has gone mad over things like that. I feel there is no answer to that.
I will only say that we are acting out of an abundance of caution. Reports that were published before GDPR took effect, and which contain persons' names, will remain as-is. Reports published after GDPR took effect, and all comments made on all reports regardless of publication date, will not contain persons' names unless they can be considered "newsworthy" (e.g. a report on a state funeral).
Whether or not names are published elsewhere, including on the churches' own websites, is irrelevant for our purposes.
@Amanda B Reckondwyth
Lead Editor, Mystery Worship
If St Magnus is one Latin declension too far, and St Helen Bishopsgate too Calvinist in its HTB-influenced ways the other options on the spectrum are: middle of the road all Hallows by the Tower; Book of Common Prayer at St James Garlickhithe or at St Peter's Cornhill; Modern Catholic at St Vedast and smokey Catholic at St Barts; St Sepulchre's have started opening on Sundays in a HTB sort of way; and there are services in Welsh at St Benets and in German for Lutheran minded Anglicans at St Mary at HIll, whilst the LGBTQ+friendly award goes to St Botolph's Aldgate and the award for the classiest professional choir to St Bride's. There is of course the Cathedral which tries, mostly successfully, to straddle the traditions. So oooodles of alternatives. All the City of London churches now need is bigger congregations, which may be a challenge as very few people live in the area these days.
Latin was Pilate's native tongue.
https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/what-language-did-jesus-speak
He probably had proficient Hebrew (proficiently enough to debate with the temple rabbis so He likely put it on his CV), Greek and Latin (both used to defend Himself before Pilate). But all the signs are that His 'mother tongue' was Aramaic, sadly a language that in 2021 is rapidly heading for extinction.