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Ship of Fools: St Gregory's, Phoenix, Arizona, USA

The Mystery WorshipperThe Mystery Worshipper Shipmate
edited April 2022 in The Mystery Worshipper

imageShip of Fools: St Gregory's, Phoenix, Arizona, USA

An act of perfect love on Good Friday

Read the full Mystery Worshipper report here


Comments

  • boston_irishboston_irish Shipmate
    Crotalus. I haven’t seen one of those used in a Triduum service since my long ago youth. The Umbraculum is rarely used today either. The old traditions, sigh. Btw thank you for correcting vimpa to humeral veil.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    The umbraculum would only be used by the Pope. I think we used to call the liturgical parasol used on Corpus Christi and on Maundy Thursday/Good Friday to accompany the Precious Body to and from the Altar of Repose, the ombrellino (Italian) or umbellium (Latin). I haven't seen one either since my youth, when the Good Friday color was black, not red.

    I've seen the crotalus used in high Anglo-Catholic Episcopal ceremonies but not in the RC church. But I don't think it has actually been suppressed.

    Interestingly, at the Children's Mass in the old days, Sister Principal used to shake a crotalus at the end of mass, when she wanted us all to genuflect in unison before leaving church. And woe to the one who didn't synchronize his genuflection with the sound!
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    I've seen an ombrellino in use on Maundy Thursday, at an Anglo-Catholic church elsewhere in this Diocese, some 50 years back...

    It struck me (not literally!) as a rather odd piece of kit, given that the procession to the Altar of Repose was entirely within the church, or was its purpose to keep bat-droppings (or whatever) from falling on the Blessed Sacrament?
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    the crotalus was used at the Pontifical Mass on Maundy Thursday at the cathedral in Klagenfurt,Austria, the first time I have heard it since Vatican 2.
    In popular language it is/was called a 'Karfreitagsratsche' (Good Friday rickety) and the expression is used also for an old woman with a croaky voice.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    With regard to this:
    Perhaps the fact that the choir rehearsed in church before the service. Are there no choir rooms?
    Our choir, since returning after the pandemic hiatus, has been unable to use our choir room, as it’s too small for the number of people in the choir to gather, space and sing safely. So we’ve had no choice but to practice in the church. (We make sure we’re done 15 minutes before the service starts.)

    Perhaps that’s the case at St. Gregory’s too?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Well, they've got a school, a convent, a parish hall . . . surely they could have found some place to accommodate the dozen or so of them. They weren't social distancing themselves in the north transept, and they weren't masked, so I don't think safety was on their minds.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Ah, well, it was a thought. Carry on.
  • Terry TeeTerry Tee Shipmate Posts: 15
    After a google search and discovering to my relief that the crotalatus was not a venomous snake, I turned to wondering when exactly it was used in the liturgy. Since the latter depends on the pre-sanctified, there would be no hanc igitur or elevations at the words of institution, which is where bells can be rung.
  • boston_irishboston_irish Shipmate
    It is a call of attention to the congregation that Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament is being brought back in to the sanctuary from the altar of repose as bells aren’t rung again until the Great Vigil.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    Terry Tee - inthe RC liturgy of Maundy Thursday bells are rung at Gloria in excelsis and after that no bells are rung until the first Mass of Easter. At a 'normal'Mass bells would be rung around the time of the consecration and the 'crotalus' or wooden clapper replaced these bells. It was also the tradition that no organ music should be played during this period.
    Much of this has disappeared since the changes after Vatican 2 in the 1960s and when they occasionally reappear they do not always follow exactly the pre Vatican 2 liturgical prescriptions.
    There isn't really any need to use the crotalus liturgically on Good Friday but certainly in the past in Central Europe boys would run around on Good Friday with versions of the crotalus,supposedly to encourage people to go to church but also in the hope of obtaining coloured Easter eggs from those whom they reminded that it was Good Friday
  • DardaDarda Shipmate
    Being fairly low down the candle C of E, I was completely ignorant about the Crotalus. Others who wish to learn more might like to go HERE, including a link to a giant Crotalus in Malta
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Yes, the crotalus replaces the bell during those times when bells are not rung. The Latin crotalus means "rattle," which I suppose is where rattlesnakes get their scientific name from.

    On Maundy Thursday it would be used when the Sanctus bell would otherwise have been rung, namely at the Sanctus, the Hanc igitur, and the Elevation; and then to accompany the Sacrament in solemn procession to the altar of repose.

    As for its liturgical use on Good Friday, I have seen it used in high church Anglo-Catholic episcopal services to accompany the Sacrament as it is being fetched from the altar of repose. I don't remember if it was used for that same purpose in the RC church of my youth. We're talking over 50 years ago, and Miss Amanda's memory isn't quite that sharp.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    The crotalus might have been used liturgically on Good Friday when there was the Mass of the PreSanctified.This was discontinued in the early 1950s during the initial changes to the Good Friday Liturgy made by pope Pius XII. I make that about 70 years ago and not sure if Miss Amanda's memory stretches back as far as that.
    There is no need liturgically for the use of the crotalus during the simple Transfer of the Blessed Sacrament from the Altar of Repose to the main altar.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    She does, but her memory doesn't.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    That would have been before Miss Amanda reached the age of reason😉




  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Probably.

    But we've, erm, rattled on long enough about the crotalus, she thinks.
  • Peter MacGregorPeter MacGregor Shipmate Posts: 5
    Thank you, Amanda, I've enjoyed reading your reviews of churches here in Phoenix!

    You might be interested to know that the current Pastor (Fr. Paul) and Parochial Vicar (Fr. Chauncey) here at St. Gregory's have made some not insignificant changes over these past few years. Most recently, statues of the Blessed Mother and of St. Joseph have been installed up behind the altar, one on either side. Fr. Paul referred to these as his "Christmas Present" to the congregation.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Thanks for the info. It's a beautiful church.
  • Peter MacGregorPeter MacGregor Shipmate Posts: 5
    You're more than welcome! I should have added that both Frs. Paul & Chauncey deliver wonderful sermons as well...

    I'm a newbie here at Ship of Fools, so please ignore this if it's too off-topic or otherwise inappropriate, but if you get a chance, I would be very interested in your take on the website I've created for my late wife:
    https://catarinamacamericansojourner.art/

    I've shared it with family and some friends (including Fr, Paul), but based on your reviews I welcome any advice/criticisms/recommendations you might have!
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Yes, it is off topic, but I did take a look. What a touching tribute!
  • Peter MacGregorPeter MacGregor Shipmate Posts: 5
    Thank you for your kind comment!
    I'm never sure of what to take out and what to leave in, and I keep finding more of her writing that just seems to "pop up" unexpectedly (e.g. her comments on unmediated reality that I added to the companion site (i.e. catarinamacamericansojourner.net/reality) and which I only came across a few weeks ago).
    Cheers!
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Welcome to the Ship! There aren't many of us left in the Phoenix area. I'm not a Host, but I think a Host would tell you that discussions of a personal nature belong in All Saints.

    Should I revisit St. Gregory's, I will think of some way to make myself known.
  • Peter MacGregorPeter MacGregor Shipmate Posts: 5
    Ah, in the Forums, indeed I will do that!
    And please do revisit St. Gregory's, I usually go the 10AM Sunday Mass (during the cold months, the 8AM once things warm up) and sit in the transept pews, close to the choir and the lectern.
    And perhaps I could replace my photo of Frida (originally named King Alfred of Wessex, re The Last Kingdom, but the wrong gender as it turned out) with one that would make myself more recognizable?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Browse here instead and you'll learn more about me.

    I'm not guaranteeing a return visit, mind you. As someone once said: Be vigilant, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
  • Peter MacGregorPeter MacGregor Shipmate Posts: 5
    Indeed, Words to live by!
    And thank you for that link to your story of your fascinating journey, and work as an editor to boot!
    Of course no guarantees, and no particular rush nor worries either.
    If you have access to Instagram, you might enjoy seeing some of my son's artwork at
    https://www.instagram.com/mac_arte/
    And if not, then here: https://www.elmac.net/about
    Cheers
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