I have rarely struggled so much with a book, and I love historical fiction with a passion.
Maybe it's like Dorothy Dunnett, which I always have to read twice to appreciate. I don't know. But I've decided to lay this aside. I may come back to it one day.
I found this an easier read than Dunnett -- not so heavily layered with allusions, indirect statements, and double meanings -- but I do know what you mean!! It was a slower read for me than is usual with books I enjoy (I mean, I did enjoy it, but most books I enjoy I race through quite quickly).
I've got to Edgehill, which I found had "1066 and all that" layered over it, with Rupert's dashing cavalry. I did find it a bit too detailed by comparison with the non-battle parts preceding it, a bit too much of technical military history. But I gather that a Georgette Heyer book is used at Sandhurst to explain Waterloo, so who am I to judge.
I'm not sure if I would have spotted Yoben at Mass without hints here.
Did you enjoy the book?
I did enjoy it – perhaps not as much as I would have done had I read it in my teenage years, but it was worth the effort.
Did you find the characters believable?
Well, up to a point. I felt that, too often, they were there to represent points of view and that was all very fair and reasonable but it distracted me from investing in them.
Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why? I suppose Froniga – I found the men generally a bit tiresome, apart from the lovely old parson
Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it? On the whole, I found them very interesting and informative, though perhaps occasionally a little bit long.
What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madona after his death? Believable? Fanciful? Froniga’s magic was, on the whole, pretty convincing (within the boundaries of a fictional narrative). However, my willing suspension of disbelief was a bit over-stretched, particularly in relation to the idea that black witchcraft was anything other than the madness of lonely and embittered old women massively exaggerated if not wholly confected by malicious neighbours.
There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental? I don’t think I can say “powerful”. Pretty good on the horrors of war and not bad on religious fanaticism. I’m afraid I didn’t find the love element terribly engaging.
I've finished it today, and am puzzled. I know it was serialised and in our house, but blowed if I can remember any of it apart from Froniga's house. I will have to see if the same applies to others I met in the same source - Green Dolphin country for example As it went on, I found it harder going.
I'm just going to comment as things occur, I'm afraid, not according to the question list.
I haven't found Jenny and Francis creepy, since nowhere is there any suggestion of Francis feeling sexual attraction, not only to Jenny, but also to Barbara and Alamina. I'm comparing it to some male writers commenting on the Odyssey, who have a much greater age gap between Odysseus and Penelope, and can obviously not do sums. Someone suggested she was in her teens and he was 40 when they married, which would make him much too old when he gets back, and his father positively ancient. Rather like films with aging male stars and very young women. Definitely to be avoided. I don't think it applies here, but Francis was an idiot turning up in a periwig. And apart from Yoben and the Parson, the men do seem rather stupid.
As for 8 year olds conversation, I have met a couple who were interesting in my time - boys, though, and one from a house where his siblings were much older, 14 and 21, so he was used to adult conversation.
I was expecting Mary Lavenham to have more to do in Oxford, as someone else has commented, she rather fades away.
I loved Parson Hawthyn. And Madona.
I don't think you can make clothes pegs from elder, which has hollow stems, like angelica. Or skewers. Perhaps a mistake for alder. I think my gypsy pegs are probably hazel. You can make whistles from elder.
I was surprised at the use of tansy (even if in Culpeper) for Margaret's failure to conceive. This very week I saw it listed with pennyroyal and raspberry leaves as an abortificient. (You can guess why it was iin the news.) Also useful for constipation. You will notice I'm the sort who picks up trivial tangents.
Most of the supernatural events fitted with things I have known to be experienced in the present. Not necessarily useful (though can be) and not things to go searching for. I don't believe in evil forces as described at the beck of Mother Skipton. (But if I did come across a wax poppet with thorns, I don't think I would just melt it. Francis went on getting problems after that.)
I was interested in Yoben's sudden realisation of what he has demanded from Froniga by his adherence to his calling. I notice that Goudge never married and I wonder if in Froniga's outburst there is something of her experience.
Battles are I think a problem. Either military hitory and war gaming, or focussing on how individuals are damaged - Goudge does both, and I think is rather moving with Francis caring for Robert. But the war gaming type is likely to be boring for those not intereste to start with.
Overall, I've enjoyed the change in reading matter, and it has made me think. I can forgive the book not being on the right side of the war, or the church - inheritor of Independents, me, with 1066 again - Right but Repulsive. I'm glad I decided to join in this time.
I can forgive the book not being on the right side of the war, or the church - inheritor of Independents, me, with 1066 again - Right but Repulsive.
Did you get the impression that the book (ie the narrative/authorial voice, as opposed to the characters) was actually taking a side? I had more of a sense that it was trying to show the motives and impacts on both sides of the conflicts, but again, not being English and not having made much of a study (yet) of your civil war, I might be missing nuances which would lead a more knowledgeable reader to conclude the author does have a definite bias.
I think she was trying, as you suggest, to show the motives and impacts on both sides, but I think she was also writing from a life lived in an environment of High Church, in which symbols and language were important to her, and the reasons for the abandonment of those were not things she understood. I notice she avoided mentioning the extreme iconoclasm, with actual smashing of statues and glass. Also Royalists stabling horses in churches. I don't think Robert is a good example of the religious thinking of the "other" side.
She had, of course, lived through a war, and her cohort of young men had marched off to something more terrible than our Civil War.
While I think it's true that the author is trying to show motives and impacts, and how there are good and God-fearing people on both sides, I think her portrayal of the Royalists is generally more positive. The only Parliament character I can think of who is completely sympathetically portrayed is John Hampden. The rest of Robert's family, including Froniga and Jenny, are only parliamentarian due to family loyalties and not due to personal convictions and Robert himself had little interest in politics until the King imprisoned Hampden, his hero from childhood. Francis is similar to him in this: he tells Yoben that he doesn't fight the war for religious reasons but because of family tradition and because when he first went to court "[the King] showed me great kindness and I loved him... He never loses men's love..."
It's true Elizabeth Goudge never married. In her autobiography The Joy of the Snow she does make reference to being in love for the first time when she was young, and to it ending in tears and doesn't give the impression it was due to a death. As we've said, it is a recurring theme in her books that the desires of love must be set aside for a higher calling, at the expense of oneself, so this may have been her reality.
I found myself comparing her to someone we knew (my mother particularly) who had grown up in a clergy household. Her father had been controlling, for example pulling her out of art college when he changed parishes. Her brother had distanced himself, and her sister "escaped" and married someone not approved of, happily, and helped support her family by writing children's books. In which there is nothing about setting aside love for higher callings. Our friend remained alone. I did wonder if Goudge's singleness was due to something in her background like that.
And I have suddenly realised how our friend was briefly the victim of a modern witch hunt.
Elizabeth Goudge was lucky in finding her purpose. (And our friend would have enjoyed conversation with her. Her best friend at the sheltered housing had been a Plymouth Brethren missionary.)
Sorry if setting off on these tangents is not appropriate, but the book is working at my mind.
No need for apologies; what you say is very interesting.
Elizabeth Goudge speaks in her autobiography of how hard some of the moves they had to make were on her and on her mother, the one to Oxford particularly if I remember correctly.
I think it's great when you get so engaged in a book it starts you thinking about lots of other things. The White Witch didn't quite do that for me, but The Little White Horse does.
As someone whose copy of The White Witch only arrived the other day….& ….. as someone whose All Time favourite book is The Little White Horse…….I m approaching this read in fear and trepidation!
Still
It is a short read and I have six hours on my own in the house today……
I think you'll find some interesting parallels between the two @Ethne Alba . It's a rather nice book to snuggle down with, and if the weather is anything like as hot up where you are as it has been down here where I live staying inside with a book sounds like a very good idea.
I didn't find it that short a read - and I can get through, for example, a Lindsey Davis Roman detective in a day. I needed to stop and cogitate a bit now and then.
Did I enjoy the book?
Yes, once I had covered it with a page from a gardening magazine! It may just be me but I find most illustrated book Covers to be seriously off putting .
Overall I loved reading the book!
Did I find the characters believable?
Yes!
Maybe growing up in the backwaters of a rural setting helped, as most certainly I found myself easily translating the descriptive written text into geographical areas I have known.
Favourite characters?
Froniga easily!
Depictions of battles were dealt with in the same way as housework, perfunctory and swiftly.
Supernatural elements, how did I find them?
The title put me off but upon sober reflection I Had to remember that both my parents have died and will no longer judge my bookshelves!
I found the supernatural elements / or not to be perfectly believable and they didn’t detract from a good story.
The powerful elements of forgiveness mercy love , dangers of war etc …. Are I think one reason why I do love EG as an author.
Think I said earlier that The Little White Horse was an all time favourite of mine from my late teens, I was gifted The Heart of the Family a few years back & now this.
Maybe I find it easier to explore difficult emotions and the whole area of decisions and choices…. In this type of literature.
( I did find some of the descriptive passages of countryside to be tiresome though, can’t believe I ve just written this tbh, …..but I did!)
Thank you @Ethne Alba ! So glad you enjoyed the book. It's interesting that several of us have felt it works in our minds and makes us think about other things.
I've read The Heart of the Family too - it's the third of a trilogy. I wonder if you've read them all? Another set of books which has the setting aside of passion/desire/self for the greater good as one of its themes.
Comments
Maybe it's like Dorothy Dunnett, which I always have to read twice to appreciate. I don't know. But I've decided to lay this aside. I may come back to it one day.
I'm not sure if I would have spotted Yoben at Mass without hints here.
I did enjoy it – perhaps not as much as I would have done had I read it in my teenage years, but it was worth the effort.
Did you find the characters believable?
Well, up to a point. I felt that, too often, they were there to represent points of view and that was all very fair and reasonable but it distracted me from investing in them.
Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why? I suppose Froniga – I found the men generally a bit tiresome, apart from the lovely old parson
Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it? On the whole, I found them very interesting and informative, though perhaps occasionally a little bit long.
What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madona after his death? Believable? Fanciful? Froniga’s magic was, on the whole, pretty convincing (within the boundaries of a fictional narrative). However, my willing suspension of disbelief was a bit over-stretched, particularly in relation to the idea that black witchcraft was anything other than the madness of lonely and embittered old women massively exaggerated if not wholly confected by malicious neighbours.
There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental? I don’t think I can say “powerful”. Pretty good on the horrors of war and not bad on religious fanaticism. I’m afraid I didn’t find the love element terribly engaging.
I'm just going to comment as things occur, I'm afraid, not according to the question list.
I haven't found Jenny and Francis creepy, since nowhere is there any suggestion of Francis feeling sexual attraction, not only to Jenny, but also to Barbara and Alamina. I'm comparing it to some male writers commenting on the Odyssey, who have a much greater age gap between Odysseus and Penelope, and can obviously not do sums. Someone suggested she was in her teens and he was 40 when they married, which would make him much too old when he gets back, and his father positively ancient. Rather like films with aging male stars and very young women. Definitely to be avoided. I don't think it applies here, but Francis was an idiot turning up in a periwig. And apart from Yoben and the Parson, the men do seem rather stupid.
As for 8 year olds conversation, I have met a couple who were interesting in my time - boys, though, and one from a house where his siblings were much older, 14 and 21, so he was used to adult conversation.
I was expecting Mary Lavenham to have more to do in Oxford, as someone else has commented, she rather fades away.
I loved Parson Hawthyn. And Madona.
I don't think you can make clothes pegs from elder, which has hollow stems, like angelica. Or skewers. Perhaps a mistake for alder. I think my gypsy pegs are probably hazel. You can make whistles from elder.
I was surprised at the use of tansy (even if in Culpeper) for Margaret's failure to conceive. This very week I saw it listed with pennyroyal and raspberry leaves as an abortificient. (You can guess why it was iin the news.) Also useful for constipation. You will notice I'm the sort who picks up trivial tangents.
Most of the supernatural events fitted with things I have known to be experienced in the present. Not necessarily useful (though can be) and not things to go searching for. I don't believe in evil forces as described at the beck of Mother Skipton. (But if I did come across a wax poppet with thorns, I don't think I would just melt it. Francis went on getting problems after that.)
I was interested in Yoben's sudden realisation of what he has demanded from Froniga by his adherence to his calling. I notice that Goudge never married and I wonder if in Froniga's outburst there is something of her experience.
Battles are I think a problem. Either military hitory and war gaming, or focussing on how individuals are damaged - Goudge does both, and I think is rather moving with Francis caring for Robert. But the war gaming type is likely to be boring for those not intereste to start with.
Overall, I've enjoyed the change in reading matter, and it has made me think. I can forgive the book not being on the right side of the war, or the church - inheritor of Independents, me, with 1066 again - Right but Repulsive. I'm glad I decided to join in this time.
Did you get the impression that the book (ie the narrative/authorial voice, as opposed to the characters) was actually taking a side? I had more of a sense that it was trying to show the motives and impacts on both sides of the conflicts, but again, not being English and not having made much of a study (yet) of your civil war, I might be missing nuances which would lead a more knowledgeable reader to conclude the author does have a definite bias.
She had, of course, lived through a war, and her cohort of young men had marched off to something more terrible than our Civil War.
While I think it's true that the author is trying to show motives and impacts, and how there are good and God-fearing people on both sides, I think her portrayal of the Royalists is generally more positive. The only Parliament character I can think of who is completely sympathetically portrayed is John Hampden. The rest of Robert's family, including Froniga and Jenny, are only parliamentarian due to family loyalties and not due to personal convictions and Robert himself had little interest in politics until the King imprisoned Hampden, his hero from childhood. Francis is similar to him in this: he tells Yoben that he doesn't fight the war for religious reasons but because of family tradition and because when he first went to court "[the King] showed me great kindness and I loved him... He never loses men's love..."
It's true Elizabeth Goudge never married. In her autobiography The Joy of the Snow she does make reference to being in love for the first time when she was young, and to it ending in tears and doesn't give the impression it was due to a death. As we've said, it is a recurring theme in her books that the desires of love must be set aside for a higher calling, at the expense of oneself, so this may have been her reality.
And I have suddenly realised how our friend was briefly the victim of a modern witch hunt.
Elizabeth Goudge was lucky in finding her purpose. (And our friend would have enjoyed conversation with her. Her best friend at the sheltered housing had been a Plymouth Brethren missionary.)
Sorry if setting off on these tangents is not appropriate, but the book is working at my mind.
Elizabeth Goudge speaks in her autobiography of how hard some of the moves they had to make were on her and on her mother, the one to Oxford particularly if I remember correctly.
Still
It is a short read and I have six hours on my own in the house today……
Yes, once I had covered it with a page from a gardening magazine! It may just be me but I find most illustrated book Covers to be seriously off putting .
Overall I loved reading the book!
Did I find the characters believable?
Yes!
Maybe growing up in the backwaters of a rural setting helped, as most certainly I found myself easily translating the descriptive written text into geographical areas I have known.
Favourite characters?
Froniga easily!
Depictions of battles were dealt with in the same way as housework, perfunctory and swiftly.
Supernatural elements, how did I find them?
The title put me off but upon sober reflection I Had to remember that both my parents have died and will no longer judge my bookshelves!
I found the supernatural elements / or not to be perfectly believable and they didn’t detract from a good story.
The powerful elements of forgiveness mercy love , dangers of war etc …. Are I think one reason why I do love EG as an author.
Think I said earlier that The Little White Horse was an all time favourite of mine from my late teens, I was gifted The Heart of the Family a few years back & now this.
Maybe I find it easier to explore difficult emotions and the whole area of decisions and choices…. In this type of literature.
( I did find some of the descriptive passages of countryside to be tiresome though, can’t believe I ve just written this tbh, …..but I did!)
I've read The Heart of the Family too - it's the third of a trilogy. I wonder if you've read them all? Another set of books which has the setting aside of passion/desire/self for the greater good as one of its themes.