He also points out what I've seen elsewhere - the claim that Humza is 'the first Muslim leader of a Western country' which surprised me. If that's the case it's something important to be celebrated and a shame about how it's been overshadowed here.
Is it any more important than Rishi Sunak becoming the first Hindu leader of a Western country?
And am I the only one who is going to point out that Scotland doesn't qualify as a country, under the commonly accepted usage of the word?
'Special moment leading my family in prayer in Bute House as is customary after breaking fast together,' says Humza Yousaf.
Where are the ladies?
Either cleaning up or praying elsewhere, I would guess. Men and women in most Islamic traditions (as in many Jewish traditions) usually pray separately. If you're hinting that Islam has some work to do on attitudes to women you're not wrong.
He also points out what I've seen elsewhere - the claim that Humza is 'the first Muslim leader of a Western country' which surprised me. If that's the case it's something important to be celebrated and a shame about how it's been overshadowed here.
Is it any more important than Rishi Sunak becoming the first Hindu leader of a Western country?
We had a nine page thread about Rishi Sunak becoming prime minister and I can't see anyone coming into it at the announcement to post a load of racism aimed at him despite the unpopularity of a lot of his policies (you yourself greeted the news with 'oh for fuck's sake!'). I don't think I've seen a lot, if any, anti-hindu prejudice round here but I do see anti-Muslim attitudes from time to time.
He also points out what I've seen elsewhere - the claim that Humza is 'the first Muslim leader of a Western country' which surprised me. If that's the case it's something important to be celebrated and a shame about how it's been overshadowed here.
Is it any more important than Rishi Sunak becoming the first Hindu leader of a Western country?
And am I the only one who is going to point out that Scotland doesn't qualify as a country, under the commonly accepted usage of the word?
A commonly accepted usage. Not every usage requires the country to be a sovereign state.
What percentage of the anglosphere population would you think adheres to a definition of "country" that would include Scotland?
He also points out what I've seen elsewhere - the claim that Humza is 'the first Muslim leader of a Western country' which surprised me. If that's the case it's something important to be celebrated and a shame about how it's been overshadowed here.
Is it any more important than Rishi Sunak becoming the first Hindu leader of a Western country?
And am I the only one who is going to point out that Scotland doesn't qualify as a country, under the commonly accepted usage of the word?
FFS don't go to Scotland and say that.
Scots can use the word "country" to mean whatever they want. But until standard reference materials start including Scotland under lists of places labeled "countries", I'm not going to use the Scottish definition in everyday conversation, unless it's footnoted with "But I don't mean 'country' in the same way that France or New Zealand are countries."
I don't think I've seen a lot, if any, anti-hindu prejudice round here but I do see anti-Muslim attitudes from time to time.
At least among white Canadians, there is very little prejudice against Hindus qua Hindus, but they would certainly be included as targets for the wrath of people who dislike brown folks generally.
There IS quite a bit of anti-Muslim prejudice, and to a lesser extent, anti-Sikh. Both partly connected to their alkeged propensity toward terrorism, but also legal issues around sartorial choices and whatnot.
The Oxford Dictionary of English defines ‘country’ as meaning “a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory’. ISTM that Scotland fits that definition.
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (to give its full name) refers to the political union between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The UK is a sovereign state, but the nations that make it up are also countries in their own right.
From 1801 to 1922 the UK also included all of Ireland.
The Channel Islands and Isle of Man are not part of the UK, but are Crown Dependencies.
This formal House of Lords explainer on the Union and devolution uses the word 'nation' : the Union being made up of four nations
There is no single definition of what constitutes the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom. Unlike in most other countries, the essential components or elements of this Union have never been set down or codified
And this is from the Office for national statistics
talking about population change for the UK's constituent countries
Well, I've been certainly been schooled today. I will no longer purport to correct any Scot claiming that Scotland is a country.
THAT BEING SAID...
If eg. Sweden elects a Muslim president in the near future, and some French guy tells me that France is "the first western country to have a Muslim leader", I am not going to correct him, either.
I think, Stetson, you should "correct him", but not if he had referred to the "first western state." "Country" is a much looser and imprecise term than "state". It is also arguable that "a state" is not necessarily a country: the British State includes three countries: England, Wales and Scotland, and part of another country, Northern Ireland. The credibility of any claim to be a country or of being a state depends on it being recognised as such by others. Thus, although many Cornishmen regard Cornwall as a country, rather than a mere English county, do so with some difficulty as the claim is generally rejected, even amongst the natives.
At one point, the height of British imperialism, Scots often referred to themselves as living in North Britain, implying they belonged to the same country as the South British, as if British denoted an ethnic identity. Today those in Scotland describing themselves as British are simply stating the bureaucratic fact of being a citizen of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland,
I'm sure that's all true. And who am I to presume what a continental Frenchman would understand by a word, anyway. I'll whittle it down to "If I were talking to someone in my family or social circle, I would assume he or she didn't define 'country' in a way that would include the current status of Scotland."
I probably do have some friends, mostly on the anti-imperialist left, who would describe it as a "nation", but with the tacit understanding that that term doesn't neccessarily imply recognized political independence.
"Nation" is more a reference to a group of people who profess a common identity: an " imagined community", (Benedict Anderson), than a country, which refers to a track of land. Not all Scots live in Scotland, nor are all the people living in Scotland Scots.
"Nation" is more a reference to a group of people who profess a common identity: an " imagined community", (Benedict Anderson), than a country, which refers to a track of land. Not all Scots live in Scotland, nor are all the people living in Scotland Scots.
Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane -
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
I'm sure that's all true. And who am I to presume what a continental Frenchman would understand by a word, anyway. I'll whittle it down to "If I were talking to someone in my family or social circle, I would assume he or she didn't define 'country' in a way that would include the current status of Scotland."
The French call Wales Pays de Galles - Country of the Welsh. I don't think they'd struggle with the concept.
I'm sure that's all true. And who am I to presume what a continental Frenchman would understand by a word, anyway. I'll whittle it down to "If I were talking to someone in my family or social circle, I would assume he or she didn't define 'country' in a way that would include the current status of Scotland."
The French call Wales Pays de Galles - Country of the Welsh. I don't think they'd struggle with the concept.
And indeed parts of Scotland were at various points part of the Kingdom of Wales and the Kingdom of Norway respectively. Culturally Orkney and Shetland are still fairly Nordic in character and Scots has a lot of Nordic loanwords ('ken/kenning' springs to mind). Scotland was one of the first unified kingdoms within Europe, well before England was.
Certainly Cornwall is a nation as much as Wales is, there is a very strong relationship between the Brythonic-language Celtic nations in particular (the Brythonic Celtic languages are Welsh, Cornish, and Breton - and iirc Asturian and Galician are related). The Channel Islands are arguably outposts of Normandy, and are very specifically Norman and *not* French.
Asturian and Galician are both Romance languages, no more related to Celtic languages than any other Romance languages are. The closest relatives of Brythonic are the Goidelic languages (Irish, Gaelic and Manx). Some elements within Asturia and Galicia like to claim Celticity but those regions have not spoken a Celtic language for the best part of two thousand years, and when they did it would have been a form of Celtiberian, which is far more distantly related to modern Brythonic languages than even the modern Goidelic languages are. Continental Celtic languages died out by around 500AD, lasting longest in Gaul. The only Celtic language spoken natively on the Continent now is Breton, and the mainstream view is that that was brought there by migrants from Britain*
I can't think of any parts of Scotland that were ever part of Wales. Certainly southern Scotland was Brythonic speaking at one point, but the Kingdoms of Strathclyde and Rheged were not part of Wales; they form what is known as Yr Hen Ogledd (the Old North). There was of course much coming and going between there and what was to become Wales (it's a bit early to call it that really; it only comes into existence as an entity some time after the Saxon invasions); Wales at this time was also a group of Kingdoms - Venedotia (Gwynedd), Demetia (Dyfed), Brycheiniog, Deheubarth, Powys...
*the Breton linguist Falc'hun reckons that Breton is Gaulish revitalised by Brythonic speaking immigrants, but he's pretty much on his own with that hypothesis.
This thread is getting off topic. Definitions of the word "country" go elsewhere. Discussions of the SNP election in terms of protected categories like being trans belong here.
Comments
FFS don't go to Scotland and say that.
thumbs_b_c_7862586abdb21ccd57e6c7836c1884a1.jpg
'Special moment leading my family in prayer in Bute House as is customary after breaking fast together,' says Humza Yousaf.
Where are the ladies?
Either cleaning up or praying elsewhere, I would guess. Men and women in most Islamic traditions (as in many Jewish traditions) usually pray separately. If you're hinting that Islam has some work to do on attitudes to women you're not wrong.
We had a nine page thread about Rishi Sunak becoming prime minister and I can't see anyone coming into it at the announcement to post a load of racism aimed at him despite the unpopularity of a lot of his policies (you yourself greeted the news with 'oh for fuck's sake!'). I don't think I've seen a lot, if any, anti-hindu prejudice round here but I do see anti-Muslim attitudes from time to time.
It would be helpful if an actual link to a photo was provided...
What percentage of the anglosphere population would you think adheres to a definition of "country" that would include Scotland?
Scots can use the word "country" to mean whatever they want. But until standard reference materials start including Scotland under lists of places labeled "countries", I'm not going to use the Scottish definition in everyday conversation, unless it's footnoted with "But I don't mean 'country' in the same way that France or New Zealand are countries."
At least among white Canadians, there is very little prejudice against Hindus qua Hindus, but they would certainly be included as targets for the wrath of people who dislike brown folks generally.
There IS quite a bit of anti-Muslim prejudice, and to a lesser extent, anti-Sikh. Both partly connected to their alkeged propensity toward terrorism, but also legal issues around sartorial choices and whatnot.
The non-free-for-all Encyclopedia Britannica describes it as "the most northerly part of the United Kingdom".
Which in and of itself says nothing about whether it is also a country.
The vast majority of people living there call it a country. So does the British Government.
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20080909013512/http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page823
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/whats-the-difference-between-uk-britain-and-british-isles
This formal House of Lords explainer on the Union and devolution uses the word 'nation' : the Union being made up of four nations
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldconst/149/14905.htm
And this is from the Office for national statistics
talking about population change for the UK's constituent countries
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/annualmidyearpopulationestimates/mid2021#population-change-for-uk-countries
It's not a nationalist formulation to use nation or country in this context but standard UK constitutional language.
THAT BEING SAID...
If eg. Sweden elects a Muslim president in the near future, and some French guy tells me that France is "the first western country to have a Muslim leader", I am not going to correct him, either.
At one point, the height of British imperialism, Scots often referred to themselves as living in North Britain, implying they belonged to the same country as the South British, as if British denoted an ethnic identity. Today those in Scotland describing themselves as British are simply stating the bureaucratic fact of being a citizen of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland,
Partitioning the UK would be ironic.
I'm sure that's all true. And who am I to presume what a continental Frenchman would understand by a word, anyway. I'll whittle it down to "If I were talking to someone in my family or social circle, I would assume he or she didn't define 'country' in a way that would include the current status of Scotland."
I think so, yeah.
Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane -
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
The French call Wales Pays de Galles - Country of the Welsh. I don't think they'd struggle with the concept.
And indeed parts of Scotland were at various points part of the Kingdom of Wales and the Kingdom of Norway respectively. Culturally Orkney and Shetland are still fairly Nordic in character and Scots has a lot of Nordic loanwords ('ken/kenning' springs to mind). Scotland was one of the first unified kingdoms within Europe, well before England was.
Certainly Cornwall is a nation as much as Wales is, there is a very strong relationship between the Brythonic-language Celtic nations in particular (the Brythonic Celtic languages are Welsh, Cornish, and Breton - and iirc Asturian and Galician are related). The Channel Islands are arguably outposts of Normandy, and are very specifically Norman and *not* French.
I can't think of any parts of Scotland that were ever part of Wales. Certainly southern Scotland was Brythonic speaking at one point, but the Kingdoms of Strathclyde and Rheged were not part of Wales; they form what is known as Yr Hen Ogledd (the Old North). There was of course much coming and going between there and what was to become Wales (it's a bit early to call it that really; it only comes into existence as an entity some time after the Saxon invasions); Wales at this time was also a group of Kingdoms - Venedotia (Gwynedd), Demetia (Dyfed), Brycheiniog, Deheubarth, Powys...
*the Breton linguist Falc'hun reckons that Breton is Gaulish revitalised by Brythonic speaking immigrants, but he's pretty much on his own with that hypothesis.
Gwai,
Epiphanies Host