Epiphanies 2023: Can someone explain …

SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
edited January 2024 in Limbo
What does Non Binary mean? I really don’t understand it. I totally understand what it means to be Transgender, Transvestite (and yes, I understand the difference between the two), Bisexual or Asexual, but I can’t get my head around Non Binary.

Please believe me when I say I’m not trying to be provocative or controversial by asking this. It’s a genuine question as I really don’t get it but I want to, so sensible answers will be gratefully received.
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Comments

  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    edited June 2023
    I'm not sure what there is to not understand. Non-binary simply means a gender that isn't male or female. Also, those words are adjectives and don't need capitalising. Someone being a transvestite is also not related to sexual orientation or gender, and generally cross-dressing is the preferred term now anyway (and it is different to drag in that drag is specifically about performance) in order to prevent confusion with trans issues.

    Also since many if not most non-binary people (not all) identify as transgender I'm confused as to why being transgender is understandable but not being non-binary. Being transgender simply means identifying as a gender other than the one assigned at birth.
  • This article might be helpful:

    https://www.lgbthero.org.uk/being-non-binary?gclid=Cj0KCQjwnMWkBhDLARIsAHBOftrGDMyj2R7vP-PHfq7HdGUd-ESZzZQtQMVou9NLCLNpAqh0VKVkPF4aAm-KEALw_wcB

    FWIW, it's not a bad thing to appreciate the fact that, for many of us of a senior generation, all these different terms can be at times confusing.
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Non-binary is when your gender isn't a binary gender of male or female, so it can encompass quite a few things. I'm agender, and I see that as under the 'non-binary' umbrella, but more specific than non-binary. There are lots of conversations and info sites about this online, so it's quite easy to learn about. Some non-binary people identify as part male, part female, or sometimes they identify as male and other times female, or they identity with a separate gender.

    Honestly, the best way to learn is observe the conversations trans and non-binary people are having. I was just seeing the other day a conversation on Reddit about whether non-binary counts as trans, and this was among trans and non-binary people, so it's not always clearcut, though the prevailing conclusion was that yes, it does, though not all non-binary people identify as trans. Reddit has various discussion forums. There's one called asktransgender, where people ask all sorts of questions. And people will answer seriously, and not put you down or act like you're stupid for not understanding. But the more you read, the more nuanced and specific your questions can be. Or you may just read other people's questions and not ask your own, if they cover what you want to know.

    Facebook also has groups and pages, and there's bound to be discussion with hashtags on Twitter, and there will be blogs where people talk about it. It's best to read the discussions and see the current narrative around it, where non-binary people are talking about what it means to be non-binary, because each non-binary person is different. So while, for instance, I can put my perspective and observations here, it's limited, and also I'm middle-aged, and didn't grow up with this vocabulary. And I suspect the same for a lot of us in this forum. So the conversation younger people are having may be more fluid and nuanced in some ways, and it will be from them that the vocabulary develops.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Pomona wrote: »
    I'm not sure what there is to not understand. Non-binary simply means a gender that isn't male or female.

    And that’s the bit I don’t understand. Surely if someone has sexual organs, they must be one thing or the other. Not long ago, I saw an article about a non binary person. This person was bald with a beard, married and had three children. I’d have thought that if someone was a natural parent, they must have some sort of gender in order to reproduce.



  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Gender and sex are not necessarily the same thing.
  • Gender is about identity. Not the same as sexual organs.
  • @fineline said:

    Honestly, the best way to learn is observe the conversations trans and non-binary people are having.

    I'm sure this is true, but there are many people (myself included) who have little or nothing to do with trans and non-binary folks on a day-to-day basis - at least AFAIK! There's no art to find the mind's construction i'the face, as King Duncan says in The Scottish Play...

    Please show us some patience as we try to get to grips with these concepts - it's not that we're anti, just a bit ignorant...

    Perhaps I should add that I'm speaking for myself here, and not necessarily for @Spike , though I share his confusion.
  • Fineline seemed accurate to me when she said that some people identify as part male part female, or whatever. It's the "identify as" that is important. Saying that someone is a bald middle aged bloke is your description, not theirs.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    As another nb person, I think the biggest thing to understand is that gender and sex are utterly unrelated. For most people they relatively well coincide. That means cis people haven't had to think of them separately, which is valid. But for some of us it's like saying that because we wear jeans we are a man/woman/construction worker. Maybe they are "supposed to" match, after all many male or female trans people have a very strong sense of gender, but there's nothing wrong with me that they don't.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    @fineline said:

    Honestly, the best way to learn is observe the conversations trans and non-binary people are having.

    I'm sure this is true, but there are many people (myself included) who have little or nothing to do with trans and non-binary folks on a day-to-day basis - at least AFAIK! There's no art to find the mind's construction i'the face, as King Duncan says in The Scottish Play...

    Please show us some patience as we try to get to grips with these concepts - it's not that we're anti, just a bit ignorant...

    Perhaps I should add that I'm speaking for myself here, and not necessarily for @Spike , though I share his confusion.

    If @fineline had links to some of the reddits they mention, that might be helpful - potentially we could add them to the resource thread too.
  • I think identity is a puzzling idea for some people as it's subjective. We are used to objective descriptions, but who I am can't be described objectively. And some criticize the subjective as a fantasy.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Spike wrote: »
    Pomona wrote: »
    I'm not sure what there is to not understand. Non-binary simply means a gender that isn't male or female.

    And that’s the bit I don’t understand. Surely if someone has sexual organs, they must be one thing or the other. Not long ago, I saw an article about a non binary person. This person was bald with a beard, married and had three children. I’d have thought that if someone was a natural parent, they must have some sort of gender in order to reproduce.



    But gender isn't related to what organs you have. And it's not like trans people who aren't non-binary have all their sexual organs replaced.
  • 'The Left Hand of Darkness' by Ursula K.Le Guin is rather good on gender fluidity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_Hand_of_Darkness

    It was published in 1969 and we're only just starting to catch up.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    edited June 2023
    Spike wrote: »
    What does Non Binary mean? I really don’t understand it. I totally understand what it means to be Transgender, Transvestite (and yes, I understand the difference between the two), Bisexual or Asexual, but I can’t get my head around Non Binary.

    Please believe me when I say I’m not trying to be provocative or controversial by asking this. It’s a genuine question as I really don’t get it but I want to, so sensible answers will be gratefully received.

    I think it can be difficult to get a handle on in a concrete way, because the terminology now seems to be used to cover a very wide range of experiences and/or interpretations of these experiences. A lot of the stuff I run into randomly on the Internet doesn't particularly resonate with me as far as my own experience is concerned, so I can see how this can be extremely confusing looking in from the outside.

    If you basically have a feel for what transgenderism is, that may be a helpful way into understanding nonbinary identities, at least as far as some nonbinary people are concerned. In full-on* transgenderism AIUI there is strong disconnect between most aspects of an individual's sex, and the gender identity they experience, such that the individual will identify more-or-less completely cross-sex. For nonbinary people there may be a disconnect, but not to the point of completely and consistently identifying cross-sex. So for instance you can have people who experience different gender identities in different contexts, or a "mixed" gender identity (and/or some combination of the above), or who experience a disconnect from any sense of gender. The underlying reality is that whatever it is that creates a sense of gender is not all-or-nothing and creates different experiences of gender in different people.

    (*as others have said, it's not really accurate to contrast transgenderism with nonbinary - it's probably more a difference in degree rather than a difference in kind)
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    @fineline said:

    Honestly, the best way to learn is observe the conversations trans and non-binary people are having.

    I'm sure this is true, but there are many people (myself included) who have little or nothing to do with trans and non-binary folks on a day-to-day basis - at least AFAIK! There's no art to find the mind's construction i'the face, as King Duncan says in The Scottish Play...

    Please show us some patience as we try to get to grips with these concepts - it's not that we're anti, just a bit ignorant...

    I wasn't feeling impatience when I wrote that post - it took me some time, and I was trying to help people find ways to find out more. Was there something about my words that sounded impatient?

    When I first started reading these discussions online, around 15 years ago, I also had nothing to do with trans or non-binary people on a day-to-day basis. (In the same way as, at that time, I had nothing to do with upper middle class C of E people on a day to day basis, but I found many on S of F - the internet helps me find all sorts of people!)

    When I first was searching online to find out more about gender identity, I googled about transgender, gender identity, and gender dysphoria. I literally just did google searches. In my post I specified what websites you can find discussions on. If there is something more you want me to specify, please can you tell me.



  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Marsupial wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    What does Non Binary mean? I really don’t understand it. I totally understand what it means to be Transgender, Transvestite (and yes, I understand the difference between the two), Bisexual or Asexual, but I can’t get my head around Non Binary.

    Please believe me when I say I’m not trying to be provocative or controversial by asking this. It’s a genuine question as I really don’t get it but I want to, so sensible answers will be gratefully received.

    I think it can be difficult to get a handle on in a concrete way, because the terminology now seems to be used to cover a very wide range of experiences and/or interpretations of these experiences. A lot of the stuff I run into randomly on the Internet doesn't particularly resonate with me as far as my own experience is concerned, so I can see how this can be extremely confusing looking in from the outside.

    If you basically have a feel for what transgenderism is, that may be a helpful way into understanding nonbinary identities, at least as far as some nonbinary people are concerned. In full-on* transgenderism AIUI there is strong disconnect between most aspects of an individual's sex, and the gender identity they experience, such that the individual will identify more-or-less completely cross-sex. For nonbinary people there may be a disconnect, but not to the point of completely and consistently identifying cross-sex. So for instance you can have people who experience different gender identities in different contexts, or a "mixed" gender identity (and/or some combination of the above), or who experience a disconnect any sense of gender. The underlying reality is that whatever it is that creates a sense of gender is not all-or-nothing and creates different experiences of gender in different people.

    (*as others have said, it's not really accurate to contrast transgenderism with nonbinary - it's probably more a difference in degree rather than a difference in kind)

    I'm not sure it's helpful to suggest that non-binary people are less transgender, or less intensely transgender. It's simply that the gender they are transitioning to is not male or female - that's all. Many non-binary people seek medical transition and the idea that they are 'less transgender' is harmful to them and their chances of accessing transition care.
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus

    If @fineline had links to some of the reddits they mention, that might be helpful - potentially we could add them to the resource thread too.

    I gave the name of the reddit discussion forum. It is asktransgender. You put an r in front of it: r/transgender. I think it is called a subreddit (this is what I mean by I am middle aged and I am not the best person to give info!).

    I access this on the Reddit app. Reddit just started showing me this group - I hadn't even joined it. I probably clicked things I was interested in when I downloaded the app and made an account, so now it suggests subreddits to me. Anyway, when I google for r/asktransgender, here is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/ But it is better to download the app, because Reddit will notify you of the best threads. There's a lot of stuff on there which isn't likely to be helpful.

    For info, there is so much out there from googling. I assumed people knew how to use google, or other search engines, but if you don't, you just type into the search bar what you want info on. Like, you can type in 'What is non-binary?' and you get lots of hits:

    https://lgbt.foundation/who-we-help/trans-people/non-binary

    https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-nonbinary-people-how-to-be-respectful-and-supportive

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

    https://www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/being-non-binary-uk-today

    https://www.minus18.org.au/articles/i-just-came-out-as-non-binary-here's-what-that-means

    Because the questions being asked here are so basic, it would be helpful for people to read the basics on a website that will explain it all quite systematically. In the same way that when I was new to S of F and I was asking questions about the Trinity and other doctrines that people felt were basic, I was told to go away and read a beginners' book on church history. So it is the same here. People can say 'Gender and sex are not the same,' and 'Gender is about identity,' but if people haven't yet grasped this concept, you need to read up on it to get more of a sense of it. I think if people read those five links I gave, they will start to understand more.

    Also, have people read Jan Morris? Trans travel writer who was one of the first high profile people to transition. She died recently, in her 90s. Her book Conundrum may be helpful, maybe more accessible to an older generation. It's about her transition from male to female, but also talks about non-binary people (though I don't think she uses that word). It's dated in many ways, but it looks at the research at the time, and also describes her inner experience. I read it recently and found it very interesting.


  • fineline wrote: »
    @fineline said:

    Honestly, the best way to learn is observe the conversations trans and non-binary people are having.

    I'm sure this is true, but there are many people (myself included) who have little or nothing to do with trans and non-binary folks on a day-to-day basis - at least AFAIK! There's no art to find the mind's construction i'the face, as King Duncan says in The Scottish Play...

    Please show us some patience as we try to get to grips with these concepts - it's not that we're anti, just a bit ignorant...

    I wasn't feeling impatience when I wrote that post - it took me some time, and I was trying to help people find ways to find out more. Was there something about my words that sounded impatient?

    When I first started reading these discussions online, around 15 years ago, I also had nothing to do with trans or non-binary people on a day-to-day basis. (In the same way as, at that time, I had nothing to do with upper middle class C of E people on a day to day basis, but I found many on S of F - the internet helps me find all sorts of people!)

    When I first was searching online to find out more about gender identity, I googled about transgender, gender identity, and gender dysphoria. I literally just did google searches. In my post I specified what websites you can find discussions on. If there is something more you want me to specify, please can you tell me.



    No, no - rest assured I wasn't saying you're impatient!

    I was merely pointing out, in a general way, that some people don't really understand a lot of these issues, and there are times when other posters seem not to appreciate this.

    I didn't express this very well - my bad.
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    No, no - rest assured I wasn't saying you're impatient!

    I was merely pointing out, in a general way, that some people don't really understand a lot of these issues, and there are times when other posters seem not to appreciate this.

    I didn't express this very well - my bad.

    Ah, okay. Did the explanation I had given, and which you were replying to, make any sense to you? And did you look at the links I later posted? They are websites where people are explaining in a detailed, systematic way to people who don't understand. Then if there is something particular you still don't get, it might be easier to express it and people here to answer it.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    So what does identity mean? What does it mean to identify as male or female and, more to the point, what does it mean not to identify as either?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Have you had a read of those links ?
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Yes I have, but I’m none the wiser. Yes, I get that there are certain social stereotypes that go with being male of female but many people don’t fit those stereotypes. What is a “typical” man and what is a “typical” woman?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited June 2023
    It might be worth thinking of a Venn diagram - cisgender folk probably have a certain minimum number of characteristics, both internal and external, that overlap with the gender role but in many and various combinations.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    Spike wrote: »
    So what does identity mean? What does it mean to identify as male or female and, more to the point, what does it mean not to identify as either?

    It might be helpful to think about different kinds of identity - many of us on this forum identify ourselves as Christian. Many other people (including the Almighty, for all I know) might identify us as not Christian at all. An identity doesn't have to be something that is simple or clear cut or that everyone agrees on. It's very important to me that I identify as a Christian and that's something that I know in my heart because I know who and what I am. I think that's identity.

    My friend is non binary. They use the pronouns they/them and they dress in the kinds of clothes that don't really proclaim a gender - trousers, plainish tops etc. They are a sibling (rather than a sister/brother) to their sisters. Other than that my friend is just my friend.
  • HelenEva wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    So what does identity mean? What does it mean to identify as male or female and, more to the point, what does it mean not to identify as either?
    <snip>

    My friend is non binary. They use the pronouns they/them and they dress in the kinds of clothes that don't really proclaim a gender - trousers, plainish tops etc. They are a sibling (rather than a sister/brother) to their sisters. Other than that my friend is just my friend.

    This is helpful, and I understand it. My habit (is that the right word?) is to simply see people as who - and how - they are, without looking for labels.

    Is this maybe over-simplistic, or even patronising?

  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Okay, identity is something you feel within yourself. Spike, you said you understand transgender - that is when a person's inner experience is different from their external gender. That inner experience of gender is gender identity.

    So, for myself, when I was a kid, and people referred to me as a little girl, and called me 'she', and they referred to other kids as little boys and called them 'he,' I didn't understand this. I had no concept of what this meant, and I thought it was like as school when you are put into teams, like a red team and a yellow team, and I'd randomly been allocated 'girl.' And it literally never made sense to me. I came to understand that boys have something a bit different in their underpants, but this seemed quite a minor detail, like some people having different hair colours, or being fat or thin. I came to understand it was about reproduction, but I had no interest in this. When people refer to me as 'she,' though I have got used to it as the norm, it feels like a word alien to me. On the occasions that people have called me 'he,' thinking I was a boy/man, that feels like a refreshing change, to even things out a bit, but also still a word alien to me.

    If I imagine waking up one morning and having magically acquired a male body, with a penis and balls, and hairy chest and stubble on my face, and this were to be me for the rest of my life, I don't feel this would be wrong, nor that it would be right. Some people feel quite repulsed by imagining this, because they are cisgender - they identify internally with the gender they are. Others feel a longing when they imagine this, because they have gender dysphoria and identify with the opposite gender and would like their body to change. All I think is about what different societal expectations there would be of me, and how I would adapt to these.

    Because I have never had any sense of gender, I actually have no idea what it feels like inside to identify with a certain gender. But I see the evidence that it clearly happens, and so I accept this. I don't take myself and my experience to be the norm by which everything must be judged. In the same way that I can't imagine what it's like not to be autistic, and people who are not autistic can't imagine my sensory experiences or the way I process the world. But if they accept that these differences exist, it makes my life a lot easier than if they doubt them. And I think there comes a point where it is about accepting that other people do experience life differently from oneself in a way you cannot fully imagine.

    Spike, it might be helpful to consider why you are asking this question. Why do you want to understand what non-binary means? Are there non-binary people in your life and you want to show support and empathy? If so, can you talk to them, and ask them open questions? Or is it more for in case you meet non-binary people in future? There's loads out there on how to show support to non-binary people, if you google that.
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    This is helpful, and I understand it. My habit (is that the right word?) is to simply see people as who - and how - they are, without looking for labels.

    Is this maybe over-simplistic, or even patronising?

    I think seeing people as human and not looking for labels is a good idea. Equally, being aware that not everyone fits a certain default, and so not making assumptions, is also a good idea. And therefore, developing awareness of different ways of being and identifying, and awareness of the current language used to describe it, is helpful.

    So, you meet a person, you don't assume they are cis and straight, but you wait for them to tell you what they want to about themselves. And it's okay to ask, respectfully, things you need to know - like asking someone's pronouns if you are not sure. And if you use the wrong pronoun, and they correct you, just apologise and move on. It's okay to make mistakes - it's much more about attitude and respect and listening and adapting.

    Incidentally, people always have called me 'she', and I've never officially changed it to 'they' (by which I mean announcing it, 'coming out,' or asking people to call me 'they' - I have never done this, though I sometimes tell people I don't identify with a gender). I would change it if I were currently a teenager, but it feels like a hassle now, and many of my generation would jeer, or ask disingenuous questions, and I couldn't be arsed with all that. But equally when people do refer to me as 'they,' as @Doublethink did earlier in the thread, that feels nice. It feels I am being respected and believed when I say who I am. Which is something cis people generally can take for granted, but non-binary people can't. There are many people who say, sometimes in a mocking way, and sometimes with a disclaimer that it's just their opinion and they accept everyone, that there are only two genders and that's that. Which is basically saying I don't exist, or that they are imposing their own category onto me regardless of my experience. And why I'm saying this is to explain it really makes a difference, to listen and accept another person's selfhood, even when you don't understand. Because I've always been called she, I didn't think at my age it would make any difference to be referred to as 'they,' but on the occasions it happens, I have realised it really does.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited June 2023
    fineline wrote: »
    This is helpful, and I understand it. My habit (is that the right word?) is to simply see people as who - and how - they are, without looking for labels.

    Is this maybe over-simplistic, or even patronising?

    I think seeing people as human and not looking for labels is a good idea. Equally, being aware that not everyone fits a certain default, and so not making assumptions, is also a good idea. And therefore, developing awareness of different ways of being and identifying, and awareness of the current language used to describe it, is helpful.

    So, you meet a person, you don't assume they are cis and straight, but you wait for them to tell you what they want to about themselves. And it's okay to ask, respectfully, things you need to know - like asking someone's pronouns if you are not sure. And if you use the wrong pronoun, and they correct you, just apologise and move on. It's okay to make mistakes - it's much more about attitude and respect and listening and adapting.
    <snip>

    Thank you - that's helpful and encouraging.
    :smile:

    FWIW, I don't get out very much at all these days, for physical/medical reasons, so I rarely meet anyone other than my immediate (and very helpful) neighbours, along with shop assistants, and the staff in the Arkland office...

  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    FWIW, I don't get out very much at all these days, for physical/medical reasons, so I rarely meet anyone other than my immediate (and very helpful) neighbours, along with shop assistants, and the staff in the Arkland office...

    I was thinking online as well, if you participate in forums other than this one. You may not, of course. I am in quite a variety of Facebook groups with a wide variety of people. This sort of stuff gets talked about a lot on all sorts of FB groups.

  • fineline wrote: »
    FWIW, I don't get out very much at all these days, for physical/medical reasons, so I rarely meet anyone other than my immediate (and very helpful) neighbours, along with shop assistants, and the staff in the Arkland office...

    I was thinking online as well, if you participate in forums other than this one. You may not, of course. I am in quite a variety of Facebook groups with a wide variety of people. This sort of stuff gets talked about a lot on all sorts of FB groups.

    Yes, ISWYM - although I don't do Facebook (I find the pages almost impossible to navigate!).
  • Spike's questions are interesting, what is identity, etc. I am biologically male, but once I started to look at identity, decades ago, I felt baffled. I don't feel anything in particular in relation to male/female. This has been emphasized by decades of meditation, in which I often lost touch with such social markers. So I end up as a kind of channel of information, but not the information itself. Sorry not to be clearer.
  • fineline wrote: »
    Okay, identity is something you feel within yourself. Spike, you said you understand transgender - that is when a person's inner experience is different from their external gender. That inner experience of gender is gender identity.

    So, for myself, when I was a kid, and people referred to me as a little girl, and called me 'she', and they referred to other kids as little boys and called them 'he,' I didn't understand this. I had no concept of what this meant, and I thought it was like as school when you are put into teams, like a red team and a yellow team, and I'd randomly been allocated 'girl.' And it literally never made sense to me. I came to understand that boys have something a bit different in their underpants, but this seemed quite a minor detail, like some people having different hair colours, or being fat or thin. I came to understand it was about reproduction, but I had no interest in this. When people refer to me as 'she,' though I have got used to it as the norm, it feels like a word alien to me. On the occasions that people have called me 'he,' thinking I was a boy/man, that feels like a refreshing change, to even things out a bit, but also still a word alien to me.

    If I imagine waking up one morning and having magically acquired a male body, with a penis and balls, and hairy chest and stubble on my face, and this were to be me for the rest of my life, I don't feel this would be wrong, nor that it would be right. Some people feel quite repulsed by imagining this, because they are cisgender - they identify internally with the gender they are. Others feel a longing when they imagine this, because they have gender dysphoria and identify with the opposite gender and would like their body to change. All I think is about what different societal expectations there would be of me, and how I would adapt to these.

    Because I have never had any sense of gender, I actually have no idea what it feels like inside to identify with a certain gender. But I see the evidence that it clearly happens, and so I accept this. I don't take myself and my experience to be the norm by which everything must be judged. In the same way that I can't imagine what it's like not to be autistic, and people who are not autistic can't imagine my sensory experiences or the way I process the world. But if they accept that these differences exist, it makes my life a lot easier than if they doubt them. And I think there comes a point where it is about accepting that other people do experience life differently from oneself in a way you cannot fully imagine.

    Spike, it might be helpful to consider why you are asking this question. Why do you want to understand what non-binary means? Are there non-binary people in your life and you want to show support and empathy? If so, can you talk to them, and ask them open questions? Or is it more for in case you meet non-binary people in future? There's loads out there on how to show support to non-binary people, if you google that.

    @fineline thank you for sharing this personal experience. It has been tremendously helpful to me.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    fineline wrote: »
    Spike, it might be helpful to consider why you are asking this question. Why do you want to understand what non-binary means? Are there non-binary people in your life and you want to show support and empathy?

    No, I don’t know any non-binary people which is probably why I don’t understand it. I have, however met a few trans people which is probably why I understand that.

    I suppose gender stereotypes have always annoyed me. At school in the 70s, boys who didn’t demonstrate “typical” male behaviour (passionate about football, getting into fights, pinching girls bums) were labelled as “poofs” (I was one of those despite being heterosexual). Girls who didn’t display “typical” feminine behaviour were called “tomboys” which I think may be less insulting.

    I am a middle aged heterosexual man. I drink beer and like cars (but don’t ask me to tell you what goes on under the bonnet). However, I hate football (and most other sport come to think of it) and love cooking.

    I’m not sure where I’m trying to go with this. I try to be open minded, but this is the one area I don’t really understand.
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    fineline wrote: »
    Okay, identity is something you feel within yourself. Spike, you said you understand transgender - that is when a person's inner experience is different from their external gender. That inner experience of gender is gender identity.

    I just realised I used the wrong terminology here. Well, it was the British terminology 15 years ago, but we use the American terminology now.

    British terminology used to be 'gender' for the bodily stuff (genitals, etc.) and 'gender identity' for the internal experience - which perhaps made the difference clearer, as it included the word 'identity.'

    American terminology (which the UK have now adopted) is 'sex' for the bodily stuff, and 'gender' for the internal experience.

    By the way, to distinguish the two, for a person to describe their bodily sex without calling themselves a gender they don't identify with, you can say AFAB and AMAB. Assigned female at birth, and assigned male at birth. So I could say I'm an agender AFAB person. Of course, it isn't always relevant to say what sex your body is, but in online discussions where people are talking about periods, for instance, or menopause, then it can be relevant.
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    @Spike - it's not particularly about gender stereotypes. I have a couple of female friends who are very butch, have a lot of stereotypical male behaviour, but also strongly identify as women.

    But yes, gender stereotypes are quite toxic in society - the fact that it's traditionally been seen as admirable for a girl to be seen as boyish, but weak and shameful for a boy to be seen as girlish of course really emphasises the societal inequality of power between the sexes, that being a girl is seen as so pathetic.

    Things seem to be changing. Young students are way more openly gender fluid.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited June 2023
    Spike wrote: »
    fineline wrote: »
    Spike, it might be helpful to consider why you are asking this question. Why do you want to understand what non-binary means? Are there non-binary people in your life and you want to show support and empathy?

    No, I don’t know any non-binary people which is probably why I don’t understand it. I have, however met a few trans people which is probably why I understand that.

    I suppose gender stereotypes have always annoyed me. At school in the 70s, boys who didn’t demonstrate “typical” male behaviour (passionate about football, getting into fights, pinching girls bums) were labelled as “poofs” (I was one of those despite being heterosexual). Girls who didn’t display “typical” feminine behaviour were called “tomboys” which I think may be less insulting.

    I am a middle aged heterosexual man. I drink beer and like cars (but don’t ask me to tell you what goes on under the bonnet). However, I hate football (and most other sport come to think of it) and love cooking.

    I’m not sure where I’m trying to go with this. I try to be open minded, but this is the one area I don’t really understand.

    I think the distinction between gender expression and gender identity is quite important here. They're not the same thing, although they may or may not coincide.

    AIUI - and open to correction - a woman who doesn't care for stereotypically girly things - whatever culture may dictate that they be - may, if she is in a setting where gender roles are societally enforced, express the wish that she were not a woman (a classic literary example might be George in the Famous Five). She may rebel and present in a masculine way. This is not however the same as having a male gender identity. It's the difference between being frustrated by cultural expectations of ones gender (which I can identify with having also been labelled a "poof" or even "a woman"* by my peers for my lack of interest in violence, sport and cars) and actually having an internal sense of actually being the opposite gender.

    Non-binary people are those whose sense is of being neither male nor female specifically, but that is not the same as having no gender identity at all, which some cis-gendered people seem to have. And to be fair, I think I'm only conscious of having a male gender identity because of having it pointed out to me how I didn't express gender the way boys were "meant" to, when I was young.

    *It's horrifying, but in the 70s and 80s, "you woman!" was a popular insult used by boys of other boys.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    KarlLB wrote: »

    *It's horrifying, but in the 70s and 80s, "you woman!" was a popular insult used by boys of other boys.

    90s too, I'm afraid. :(
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    @Spike I guess my confusion comes from the fact that being transgender isn't confusing to you. Non-binary is just another variety of transgender, so I don't understand why one is confusing and the other isn't. They're essentially the same thing just with different genders involved.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »

    *It's horrifying, but in the 70s and 80s, "you woman!" was a popular insult used by boys of other boys.

    90s too, I'm afraid. :(

    I can't decide whether it's simple misogyny (being a woman is an inherently bad thing) or forced gender normativity (being like a woman in any way is a bad thing for a man to be). It's pretty ugly either way.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    fineline wrote: »
    fineline wrote: »
    Okay, identity is something you feel within yourself. Spike, you said you understand transgender - that is when a person's inner experience is different from their external gender. That inner experience of gender is gender identity.

    I just realised I used the wrong terminology here. Well, it was the British terminology 15 years ago, but we use the American terminology now.

    British terminology used to be 'gender' for the bodily stuff (genitals, etc.) and 'gender identity' for the internal experience - which perhaps made the difference clearer, as it included the word 'identity.'

    American terminology (which the UK have now adopted) is 'sex' for the bodily stuff, and 'gender' for the internal experience.

    By the way, to distinguish the two, for a person to describe their bodily sex without calling themselves a gender they don't identify with, you can say AFAB and AMAB. Assigned female at birth, and assigned male at birth. So I could say I'm an agender AFAB person. Of course, it isn't always relevant to say what sex your body is, but in online discussions where people are talking about periods, for instance, or menopause, then it can be relevant.

    I can’t keep up! I had always used the word sex and was told in no uncertain terms that the correct term was gender. Now it seems it’s gone back to what it had been previously
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    What do you mean, Spike? Sex is for the body and gender for how you identify. I don't think sex has ever meant gender identity. Gender was used as the sole word only when it wasn't acknowledged that how one identifies may be different from their body. And that was a long time ago. This isn't a recent change.
  • edited June 2023
    The bit I struggle with isn’t the terminology, but the suggestion that someone’s biological sex is irrelevant to who they are. It’s all a bit too dualistic for me.
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    The bit I struggle with isn’t the terminology, but the suggestion that someone’s biological sex is irrelevant. It’s all a bit too dualistic for me.

    Who is suggesting it's irrelevant, and irrelevant to what?
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    @Marvin the Martian Ah, you edited it after I replied. Well, the fact that people do talk about being AFAB and AMAB indicates that it's not seen as totally irrelevant - it is a part of their physical body that needs to be acknowledged.

    But do you think someone's genitals need to be a defining factor in how they see themselves - their own internal experience of themselves? And if so, why? And if for some people this isn't a defining factor, why is that something you personally struggle with? How does it affect you?
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    edited June 2023
    The bit I struggle with isn’t the terminology, but the suggestion that someone’s biological sex is irrelevant to who they are. It’s all a bit too dualistic for me.

    Why should my gentialia define what is in my head? I can promise I don't store my self concept down there.

    I just don't see what dicks and cunts have to do with people? I mean people tend to have them, but I have hands too. I'm right handed. My partner is left handed. So is my mom for that matter and he has some things in common with her. Why don't we start basing gender on handedness? Maybe lefties are the real minority gender. It would make at least as much sense.

    ETA: (@fineline this is sort of what you said. I responded before I finished the thread properly. Apologies.)
  • Gwai wrote: »
    I just don't see what dicks and cunts have to do with people? I mean people tend to have them, but I have hands too. I'm right handed. My partner is left handed. So is my mom for that matter and he has some things in common with her. Why don't we start basing gender on handedness? Maybe lefties are the real minority gender. It would make at least as much sense.

    I'd say dicks and cunts have a good deal more to do with sex and gender than handedness. Humans reproduce sexually, and dicks and cunts are how we do it. Handedness is irrelevant to reproduction. And unless you want to say that sexuality has nothing to do with sex (the act), you seem to be arguing a step too far. Further if dicks and cunts have nothing to do with it, why do people have alignment surgery?
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    That's a complicated question because it also depends on where someone lives - in some areas, including some US states, genital surgery including sterilisation is a requirement for legal gender recognition. Until recently this was the norm in most of Europe (though not in the UK). This kind of legislation is something invented by cis people, not by trans people, because it's based on a cis idea of what being trans should be like and what trans people should want. Some trans people want genital surgery, some don't - in the UK where it hasn't been a requirement for legal gender recognition for a long time, plenty of trans people choose not to have it.

    @Marvin the Martian I don't see how genitalia is any more indicative of who someone is than their elbows. They're just body parts. Everyone has different body parts so it doesn't seem like this specific variation is any more important than any other. I don't see what's dualistic about that.

    @fineline I think generally people try to avoid using AMAB and AFAB unless it's for very specific reasons, and I think it's falling out of favour in preference for TME/TMA (transmisogyny exempt/transmisogyny affected respectively).
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Gwai wrote: »
    I just don't see what dicks and cunts have to do with people? I mean people tend to have them, but I have hands too. I'm right handed. My partner is left handed. So is my mom for that matter and he has some things in common with her. Why don't we start basing gender on handedness? Maybe lefties are the real minority gender. It would make at least as much sense.

    I'd say dicks and cunts have a good deal more to do with sex and gender than handedness. Humans reproduce sexually, and dicks and cunts are how we do it. Handedness is irrelevant to reproduction. And unless you want to say that sexuality has nothing to do with sex (the act), you seem to be arguing a step too far. Further if dicks and cunts have nothing to do with it, why do people have alignment surgery?

    This seems like a very reductive take on reproduction and sex, which also don't necessarily have anything to do with each other on an individual level. Contraception exists and so does adoption - it's perfectly possible to have kids and also never experience pregnancy for instance. Humans as a species may reproduce sexually as opposed to asexually, but that's very different to talking about how individuals may or may not create their families.

    Surely you are aware that sexual behaviour on an individual level doesn't have to involve any potential reproduction at all? Genitalia isn't even necessary let alone crucial to certain types of sexual activity.
  • delete
  • Pomona wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Gwai wrote: »
    I just don't see what dicks and cunts have to do with people? I mean people tend to have them, but I have hands too. I'm right handed. My partner is left handed. So is my mom for that matter and he has some things in common with her. Why don't we start basing gender on handedness? Maybe lefties are the real minority gender. It would make at least as much sense.

    I'd say dicks and cunts have a good deal more to do with sex and gender than handedness. Humans reproduce sexually, and dicks and cunts are how we do it. Handedness is irrelevant to reproduction. And unless you want to say that sexuality has nothing to do with sex (the act), you seem to be arguing a step too far. Further if dicks and cunts have nothing to do with it, why do people have alignment surgery?

    This seems like a very reductive take on reproduction and sex, which also don't necessarily have anything to do with each other on an individual level. Contraception exists and so does adoption - it's perfectly possible to have kids and also never experience pregnancy for instance. Humans as a species may reproduce sexually as opposed to asexually, but that's very different to talking about how individuals may or may not create their families.

    Surely you are aware that sexual behaviour on an individual level doesn't have to involve any potential reproduction at all? Genitalia isn't even necessary let alone crucial to certain types of sexual activity.

    Seems you want to take my very general observation and make it apply to every single person, find it doesn't, and reject my observation wholesale.
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