American racism (spin off from French riots thread)

This discussion was created from comments split from: Difficult not to have some sympathy for the rioters in France.

Comments

  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Here's an MLK quote from the article that puts the problem with looting and rioting.
    “The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing it, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.”

    Yet violence is also a pretty much inevitable consequence of oppression.

    What's often elided in discussions like this is that violence isn't just the consequence of oppression, it's the tool of oppression. Most comments on the matter seem to go something along the lines of "non-state actors need to stop committing non-state violence immediately and then maybe sometime in the indefinite future we might consider to begin to contemplate thinking about possibly slightly reducing state-sponsored violence". No one ever reverses the order and suggests that the government should stop killing its citizens before the rioting stops.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    What @Crœsos said.

    Locating, identifying and "solving" racism and the multiple issues causing, related to, and stemming from it seems to me at times hopeless, especially when "government" gets involved.

    Here in NH, we are cursed with a state education commissioner (Frank Edelblut) who has singlehandedly (though with strong support from our esteemed (hack-cough-gasp) governor, Chris Sununu) wrecked not just any attempt to achieve racial and/or economic equality in public k-12 education, but also seems hellbent on destroying public education itself.

    Installed in 2017, he and Sununu pushed through an initiative which allows parents to send kids to private and/or religious schools with substantial financial support from the state. By contrast, merely bussing kids out of poor neighborhoods with struggling schools to better-resourced suburban schools is for amateurs.

    What a genius move: poor parents dependent on public assistance and/or public transport would be left with only local public schools as an option for their kids, ensuring a constituency too exhausted and stressed out just trying to make the ends come together to bitch.

    A second effect of this bit of legerdemain was to hollow out the teaching force for these now "less-desirable" schools. I was a teacher for 30 years (though at the college level, so maybe I don't count), and I can tell you it's lots more fun to teach energetic, bright, engaged students than it is to teach students too hungry, tired, and stressed to devote much attention to learning.

    Middle-and-higher-income voters in this vast-majority sheet-white state went for this program big-time. It's as though a White Call went out the minute any small town (most of the state, in other words) abruptly acquired one single non-English-speaking refugee family or a Black family: Help!! Our culture, our way of life is under attack! There are Strangers in our midst!! Circle the wagons!!!

    Meanwhile, low-income residents -- esp. those dependent on school busses and public transport to get kids to school and themselves to jobs got left in the dust. Purely by happenstance, cough-cough-cough, guess where underfed, stressed-out, non-white schoolkids mostly end up? I know you'll be shocked to discover the answer for yourself.

    Don't get me started on related facts: it costs as much to run a school bus to pick up 4-5 kids as it takes to pick up a bus full. It costs as much to pay a third-grade teacher to instruct 12 students as it costs to have her teach a full class. At the high school level, you can't just cut courses willy-nilly if those courses make the difference between job or college eligibility and non-eligibility. And on it goes.

    As long as New Hampshire insists on funding non-public schools with public money, diminishing resources to actual public schools, public education in this state will continue to decline.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    I was going to ask whether funding religious schools was a violation of the establishment clause but then I remembered who would ultimately decide that and realised the actual answer was not relevant to any likely judgment.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    Cross post from @Ohher that missed the split
    Ohher wrote: »
    Yep. And there's this: which of the smug lily-white middle-class MY-child-attends-St. Diddly-Fits moms is going to raise objections? Which of the exhausted, shopping-for-day-old-discounted-bread-at-11-at-night-in-Joe's-deli so she can make PB sandwiches for Missy and Junior moms before she catches the 6 a.m. bus to work the next morning is going to kick up a fuss? And who, other than these folks, would have standing to bring an action against the state for this misappropriation of state education funding?
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    As no one seems interested in discussing this -- and as at risk I am of talking solely to myself -- might it not be worthwhile to close this thread?
  • AnteaterAnteater Shipmate
    Ohher: I am quite interested in this, given that a close relative has just transitioned her kids from the local state (primary Church of England ) school to a private school with our support. So I suppose it makes us baddies in the eyes of some.

    You can guess some of the reasons, but the link to racism comes because the final straw was persistent bullying of her son by other kids who belong to a minority group who only are allowed into the school (being way outside the catchment area) for social reasons. You will just have to take my word for the fact that the bullying is real, the people know and the school response totally inadequate.

    I do actually know that bullies come in all shapes and sizes, and another person I know well, had to withdraw her son for a fairly prestigious local private school due to bullying. But when you are making decisions for your children you look at the situation you are actually in. And it is very tough for parents to put the burden of social fairness issues onto their children, which is why it is quite common for Lefties in the UK to send their kids to elite schools.

    A less racist factor is the crap they are expected in eat if they have the school meals which have to be seen to be believed. Like sausage roll and slice of pizza a load of crisps and sugary biscuits (not a square inch of anything green) and to add insult to injury there are multiple restrictions on the food people can being in, in case anybody in the school could possibly have an allergy. The presumption is, I suppose, that there is no such thing as an allergy to shite. But bullying is the main issue.

    Can you at least appreciate why some people pay up. Nobody wants to part with cash for something which should be free. But what should be free is quality education, and that's not on offer. Contrary to your instance there is no direct aid. School fees are no longer tax deductible.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    This last week I took a friend from Tanzania to where I grew up. On the way, we just happened to pass a couple of (Christian) Academies. He asked about what they taught. I explained they most likely teach seven day creation, conservative view of history, etc. He asked what they teach about slavery. I said they usually teach slavery was beneficial to the slave. He was surprised at that. And then what do we hear on the news? DeSantis' new history curriculum for Florida schools that says exactly that.

    Later he said he was told if he were driving in America and broke down it would be dangerous for him to go up to a nearby house to ask for help. I had to admit while it might be dangerous for even me, I would more likely be able to do it safer than him because of the color of my skin.

    He has never had "The Talk" which Black American parents have to give to their children.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Anteater wrote: »
    Ohher: I am quite interested in this, given that a close relative has just transitioned her kids from the local state (primary Church of England ) school to a private school with our support. So I suppose it makes us baddies in the eyes of some.

    You can guess some of the reasons, but the link to racism comes because the final straw was persistent bullying of her son by other kids who belong to a minority group who only are allowed into the school (being way outside the catchment area) for social reasons. You will just have to take my word for the fact that the bullying is real, the people know and the school response totally inadequate.

    I do actually know that bullies come in all shapes and sizes, and another person I know well, had to withdraw her son for a fairly prestigious local private school due to bullying. But when you are making decisions for your children you look at the situation you are actually in. And it is very tough for parents to put the burden of social fairness issues onto their children, which is why it is quite common for Lefties in the UK to send their kids to elite schools.

    A less racist factor is the crap they are expected in eat if they have the school meals which have to be seen to be believed. Like sausage roll and slice of pizza a load of crisps and sugary biscuits (not a square inch of anything green) and to add insult to injury there are multiple restrictions on the food people can being in, in case anybody in the school could possibly have an allergy. The presumption is, I suppose, that there is no such thing as an allergy to shite. But bullying is the main issue.

    Can you at least appreciate why some people pay up. Nobody wants to part with cash for something which should be free. But what should be free is quality education, and that's not on offer. Contrary to your instance there is no direct aid. School fees are no longer tax deductible.

    @Ohher is in the US I believe - the situation and tax codes may be quite different there.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Anteater wrote: »
    Ohher: I am quite interested in this, given that a close relative has just transitioned her kids from the local state (primary Church of England ) school to a private school with our support. So I suppose it makes us baddies in the eyes of some.

    You can guess some of the reasons, but the link to racism comes because the final straw was persistent bullying of her son by other kids who belong to a minority group who only are allowed into the school (being way outside the catchment area) for social reasons. You will just have to take my word for the fact that the bullying is real, the people know and the school response totally inadequate.

    I do actually know that bullies come in all shapes and sizes, and another person I know well, had to withdraw her son for a fairly prestigious local private school due to bullying. But when you are making decisions for your children you look at the situation you are actually in. And it is very tough for parents to put the burden of social fairness issues onto their children, which is why it is quite common for Lefties in the UK to send their kids to elite schools.

    A less racist factor is the crap they are expected in eat if they have the school meals which have to be seen to be believed. Like sausage roll and slice of pizza a load of crisps and sugary biscuits (not a square inch of anything green) and to add insult to injury there are multiple restrictions on the food people can being in, in case anybody in the school could possibly have an allergy. The presumption is, I suppose, that there is no such thing as an allergy to shite. But bullying is the main issue.

    Can you at least appreciate why some people pay up. Nobody wants to part with cash for something which should be free. But what should be free is quality education, and that's not on offer. Contrary to your instance there is no direct aid. School fees are no longer tax deductible.

    @Ohher is in the US I believe - the situation and tax codes may be quite different there.
    Yes, she specifically said she was talking about the situation in New Hampshire, where she lives.

  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    Hi Ohher,

    We do not generally close threads for lack of use. Some will come back to life later, and this way we let people choose.

    Gwai
    Epiphanies Host
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Thanks for the explanation, Gwai, re: letting the thread stand. As it now appears there is some interest, after all, the policy clearly serves a worthwhile purpose.

    As to the topic: NH state law now requires (among other things) that the state deliver an "adequate" education to its young. No definition of "adequate" (AFAIK) exists. A lawsuit against the state re: state ed funding (aka Claremont) exists and has been open for lo these many years with zero forward movement toward resolution since the current commissioner of ed was appointed. He (Frank Edelblut) has championed (with support from the current governor, Chris Sununu) this wholesale misappropriation (from my POV) of taxpayer funding for education.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    @Anteater maybe open another thread discussing this wrt your/your friend's experience in UK schools? It's very different in the US, not least because the parochial schools in the US would be private schools anyway (but not necessarily fee-paying).
  • AnteaterAnteater Shipmate
    Maybe. I must admit that my reasons for posting was twofold. Firstly (not a good one) is that Ohherr was sort of trying to make sure the thread didn't dry up.

    But mainly, I thought that the general issue of taking children out of state and into private education was still relevant. I'll think about a thread, and stay away from this one.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Anteater wrote: »

    But mainly, I thought that the general issue of taking children out of state and into private education was still relevant. I'll think about a thread, and stay away from this one.

    @Anteater, I agree: taking children out of state and into private education IS relevant. It's also sometimes absolutely necessary and in the best interests not only of an individual child, but also for the class / school / local education authority into which that kid would otherwise be schooled. The problem, though, is the peculiarly American 'all-or-nothing' approach to virtually everything including education.

    Ensuring that kids get a decent public (in US terms, this means publicly-funded by taxpayers) education means pleasing taxpayers. So the first problem is this: convincing taxpayer Smith that it's a great idea for her little math-whiz Susie to attend third grade (about age 8) alongside little out-of-control Johnny, also 8 and diagnosed with a severe behavioral disorder, who spends most of his time screaming, fighting, pushing, running and wreaking havoc while his aide (if any) tries to keep him from destroying the room.

    Yes, that's an extreme and rare example. Not, however, nearly rare enough.

    Back in the Bad Old Days (pre-1975), kids with even comparatively non-severe disabilities were often shut out of school altogether. Use a wheelchair? Schools have stairs; tough luck, kid. Slow at catching on? Sorry, kid; we're not set up for that. Whiz kid? That's nice; let's see if we can bore that out of you before you make too much trouble. You're a typical average run-of-the-mill kid? Great; sit down, shut up, and we'll give you the basics.

    Now, nearly 50 years on, we have a hybrid system that tries to accommodate everybody from Johnny to Suzie and ends up, AFAIKS, doing damn-all for anybody including the ordinary run-of-the-mill kid.

    The theory behind accommodating kids with disabilities in so-called "regular ed" sounds great on paper. It also works well for many kids. But accommodating those at the extreme edges of any range -- behavioral, physical, intellectual -- requires extreme measures and this can be disruptive.

    In my last few years of teaching (at college, not in public school), two efforts were afoot to include students with disabilities in my freshman composition course. In one case, the young man was non-verbal. In the first class, he and his aide sat in the front of the room, where he murmured (sometimes loudly), scribbled, drooled, banged on his desk with his hands, attempted repeatedly to leave his seat, hummed, barked, moved his head and upper body around distracting-and ed-ly.

    Did this guy have a right to attempt an education? Sure. But wouldn't a course in English Composition be of more benefit to someone who had, by age 20, acquired at least a few words in the relevant language?

    Did he have a right to interrupt his instructor, distract other students who are paying out-of-pocket for this course, and interfere with instruction? No.

    We need something far more nuanced than this all-or-nothing approach. We also need a funding system that doesn't require taxpayers to fund unreachable goals.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    edited July 2023
    Ohher wrote: »
    Ensuring that kids get a decent public (in US terms, this means publicly-funded by taxpayers) education means pleasing taxpayers. So the first problem is this: convincing taxpayer Smith that it's a great idea for her little math-whiz Susie to attend third grade (about age 8) alongside little out-of-control Johnny, also 8 and diagnosed with a severe behavioral disorder, who spends most of his time screaming, fighting, pushing, running and wreaking havoc while his aide (if any) tries to keep him from destroying the room.
    That sounds strikingly like a statement that children with developmental disabilities don't deserve or need education. Also, if you want to go there, if Johnny is doing half those things that means his needs are not being met. No one does any of those panic disorder behaviors for fun.
    In my last few years of teaching (at college, not in public school), two efforts were afoot to include students with disabilities in my freshman composition course. In one case, the young man was non-verbal. ...

    Did this guy have a right to attempt an education? Sure. But wouldn't a course in English Composition be of more benefit to someone who had, by age 20, acquired at least a few words in the relevant language?

    He certainly deserved a teacher who knew more about his condition and was interested in teaching him.

    (ETA split & edited for clarity, Doublethink, Admin)
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    [Hosting]
    Gwai wrote: »

    @Ohher Please note my host comments.

    Avoid ablism. Additionally, in accordance with Epiphanies guidance. I remind you to cite sources of those affected. Johnny and/or his mother would be appropriate. Since he's fictional, I highly recommend reading about some actual people with developmental disabilities. For instance, Sabrina the nonspeaking advocate often comments on facebook about how it feels when people assume she is stupid or otherwise irrelevant because she doesn't talk.

    Severe vs. non severe language for disabilites is generally to be avoided these days. Partially because it hurts everyone involved. (Severe? Means you can' do anything? Not severe? means you don't need any help)

    Nonverbal does NOT mean unable to use words. It means doesn't. Epiphanies guidelines require people to listen to the voices of those affected for a reason.

    Gwai,
    Epiphanies Host

    [/Hosting]

    (ETA split & edited for clarity, Doublethink, Admin)
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    Being assumed to lack capacity because of not communicating orally is an issue which affects and hurts a lot of autistic people.

    https://www.bristolautismsupport.org/why-being-nonverbal-doesnt-mean-being-non-capable/

    That piece has some good links to non speaking bloggers and writers and a list of further reading. It's the first one that came to hand as I'm pushed for time but it looks useful.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    The lack of support for teachers when students with complex needs arrive in their class is part of the problem. It's not reasonable to expect every teacher to be able to respond appropriately off the bat to every complex need. Adjustments/accommodations can't solely consist of expecting the teacher to adapt. They will need specialist training, extra prep time, and ongoing expert advice and support. Without those both teacher and student are being set up to fail.

    It's all very well offering the truism that behaviour is communication or disruptive behaviour is a response to an unmet need, but it's rarely clear what is being communicated or what need is unmet, or how best to respond in either case. And sometimes the need is for (e.g.) not being surrounded by 30 noisy schoolchildren in which case there is bugger all the teacher can do about it.

    Inclusion is absolutely the right approach to education but it comes with a resource cost attached to it which is rarely met in full, and often not even in part.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Typically schools in England will be required to support a child with special needs for six months before a support plan is agreed and funding put in place. The school will not then be reimbursed for the extra cost of supporting the child up to that point.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    It also needs pointing out that disabled pupils and pupils with special educational needs are different sets of pupils. A pupil who uses a wheelchair but with no intellectual or learning disabilities just needs an accessible building, not a special school. Likewise a child may be mentally ill but NOT learning disabled or intellectually disabled.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    For 15 of my 30 years in university student services I have worked with students with disabilities. Accommodations are meant to address the functional limitations of the disability and remove barriers to access to education. In the US, the requirement to provide reasonable academic accommodations is embedded in the Americans with Disabilities Act and other legislation. In Canada, the duty to accommodate is a positive requirement built into our human rights codes which prohibit discrimination towards persons with disabilities. Finding appropriate academic accommodations is often an art. In Canada, we are required to provide "reasonable academic accommodations up to the level of undue hardship". On occasion this bumps up against academic ableism. Jay Timothy Dalmage wrote a great book on this topic in higher education.
  • My eldest grandson is on the high end of the Autism Spectrum. Essentially, he is very sensitive to sound, and he likes everything to be in order. When he was enrolled in the Portland School District in Oregon, she was placed in a special needs class. But the problem with the class was that they catered to the lowest common denominator.

    He would get so frustrated with the class. He is not intellectually challenged. Rather he is quite advanced.

    His parents fought long and hard to get him mainstreamed in a regular class. Their insurance paid for a special assistant to help him adjust to a class with general population kids. At on time this was five days a week. Now they are paring the assistant services back because he has made good transitions.

    He still goes to regular therapy on a weekly basis.

    Just recently, he asked his science teacher if he could do a project using a 3D printer. The teacher was very pleased. She said kids at his age level normally are not interested in 3D printing yet.
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