Anti-Norfolk bigotry
stetson
Shipmate
I'd like to know more about this.
[And only those prepared to accept that the prejudice in question deserves that epithet with its most detestable connotations should post here.]
So, it's an anti-rural thing, that trades on degrading and dehumanizing stereotypes about inbreeding and associated medical issues. But is there anything else that would distinguish it from other types of anti-rural sentiment?
And what sort of negative encounters have Norfolk people had with hostile individuals or groups?
And just as a possible model...
I come from the province of Alberta, aka Texas North, and people sometimes mock us as southern-twanged, noueveau riche, boom-town bible-thumpers. Those with an oversimplified understanding of how ideology migrates say we are "a conduit" for all the bad right-wing stuff coming from the USA. But it's not a dominating and/or systemic prejudice among Canadians.
That's the sort of stuff I'm interested in learning about anti-Norfolk bigotry.
Also, is this in any way represented in media portrayals, eg. sitcoms, crime shows, the usual purveyors of schlock caricatures?
And is there any sort of historical connection, eg. Alberta HAS had a few high-profile political leaders who were literally revival tent evangelists, and all have guarded the province's oil wealth jealously, some would argue against the interests of the larger nation.
[And only those prepared to accept that the prejudice in question deserves that epithet with its most detestable connotations should post here.]
So, it's an anti-rural thing, that trades on degrading and dehumanizing stereotypes about inbreeding and associated medical issues. But is there anything else that would distinguish it from other types of anti-rural sentiment?
And what sort of negative encounters have Norfolk people had with hostile individuals or groups?
And just as a possible model...
I come from the province of Alberta, aka Texas North, and people sometimes mock us as southern-twanged, noueveau riche, boom-town bible-thumpers. Those with an oversimplified understanding of how ideology migrates say we are "a conduit" for all the bad right-wing stuff coming from the USA. But it's not a dominating and/or systemic prejudice among Canadians.
That's the sort of stuff I'm interested in learning about anti-Norfolk bigotry.
Also, is this in any way represented in media portrayals, eg. sitcoms, crime shows, the usual purveyors of schlock caricatures?
And is there any sort of historical connection, eg. Alberta HAS had a few high-profile political leaders who were literally revival tent evangelists, and all have guarded the province's oil wealth jealously, some would argue against the interests of the larger nation.
Comments
A suitable UK parallel might be the traditional portrayal of "teuchters".
As @Arethosemyfeet says, if you're doing a generic 'yokel' portrayal it will almost certainly be based off the Somerset accent - and the 'Mummerzet' accent has become a trope on TV/radio for people supposed to be living rurally pretty well anywhere from Great Yarmouth to Penzance. 'Normal for Norfolk' is a Norfolk thing rather than particularly a sling aimed at the county from outside (though obviously I'm not saying it never is or has been) IME. Aside from Alan Partridge (and to be honest half the point of the various series and films involving him was to point and laugh at him, rather than Norfolk, which comes out of them rather well) Norfolk is if anything ignored usually. If you want the people always up in arms about their portrayal in TV and radio 'comedy' - everything from Doc Martin on through to Jethro, then you really want Cornwall.
Where there *is* (or was, we'll come onto that) a specific 'these people are weird' IME (and this is closer to what I think @ExclamationMark was getting at) is the Fens, but if you look on a map you'll see that they're mostly not in Norfolk. However I'm not sure how much that is even still something that most people in England would know (I'd question how many these days would even have heard of the Fens or be able to find them on a map) - I only have knowledge because of relatives in the area.
There is a trope about in-breeding in Norfolk, but then if you lived here you'd know there's also a similar one about Northants - 'all people in Northants are interested in is drink driving and incest' as overheard in a bookshop! Also Northumberland, the Wigan area (which is urban), Clee Hill and many other places. Essentially, a lot of the national culture is or seems to be based on abusing people from other areas. Though that's the same in many/most nations IME.
Where I think there is an issue, which goes right to the heart of the discussion as it has been developing more generally, is the spectacular and growing rural: urban divide in the country, which means that really it's at least two countries. While it would be simple to think that this was all about urban people becoming divorced from rural ones, it cuts both ways. At the same time however, it's difficult not to see the country as set up to work (insofar as it works at all) for the people living in urban areas, and the rural dwellers are at best people to be ignored, or at worst an annoyance.
It's further complicated by the political system. The Tories historically pose as the voice of the shires, but don't do anything for them, the Liberal Democrats tend to be a bit more plugged in to actual rural concerns and needs, but never have the weight of numbers to do anything for them. Sadly, given that they tend to form the government when the Tories don't, Labour really do only ever seem to do anything for urban areas and have literally nothing to say, and no apparent interest in, talking to, understanding, representing or addressing the needs of the rural parts of the country.
All of which means the government will either be your self proclaimed 'friends' - Tories - ignoring you, or people who ignore you without even paying lip service to the fact that you matter or exist - Labour.
Or you get a Lib Dem, who will probably genuine understand and sympathise but can't change anything.
And people wonder why the countryside feels put-upon, joked about, disparaged, misunderstood (where even understood to any extent at all), or a theme park for urbanites who come to gawp, litter, and go away again, possibly after forming some views on how they'd like to reorganise things in the rural areas for the benefit of the urban areas - it's their playground after all. We just live here.
To misquote Millwall fans, it often seems like no one likes us, and we really do care.
Agree. The Fens especially. But I think my point was that prejudice against the Fens is a diminishing circle that’s now most virulent in the areas surrounding the fens (IME*) rather than the nationwide thing it was in the 50s to (probably) 80s. As I said, I’d be surprised if most people under 30 had even heard of them, unless they live in or near them.
To that extent it’s becoming a bit like how in Northants Corby and surroundings get all the abuse, but outside the county most people have never given Corby and surroundings a moment’s thought.
*there’s big agricultural traffic to and from the Fens round by me and lots of family links but then as you say that’s the East of England.
As mentioned above 'Teuchter' is a derogatory term for anyone north of Perth. 'Culchie' is the Irish equivalent.
I'd agree the big split is between rural and urban - which goes back a loooong way: consider the roots of 'civil' and 'urbane' as against 'villain' or 'boor'.
FWIW, Dorothy L Sayers' novel The Nine Tailors gives a much more positive picture of life in a small Fenland parish in about
1928-29.
They still do.
the one I always remember is 'Planet Thanet'
Yeah, the Peckinpah film I mentioned on the Hell thread is actually set in Cornwall. I'd imagine at least some people there weren't overly thrilled about the representation.
Though I used to think that movie was just a one-off, and never associated the region as being a fount of popular stereotypes. Personally, my subjective impression of it was more along the lines of a bucolic region populated by gentleman-farmers and easygoing villagers.
But given the geography, wouldn't there be a cultural continuity between the two places? Maybe this is something like(from my earlier example) "Canadians will say that Albertans are a buncha right-wing cowboys, but they usually don't say that about the western interior of British Columbia, even though it's sociopolitically similar, because for whatever reason, Alberta is the place that gets the brunt of it."
My late mother moved to Aldborough (near Cromer) in 1986, and loved it. My sister lives in Aylsham, having left London in the early 80s.
There did use to be far more planes, mostly USAF but also RAF from Marham.
MMM
P.S., Aylsham is a lovely town.
I couldn't tell - and I've met you.
Never mind, eh, commiserations
There is a lot of "banter" about all these places. The "jokes" about Norfolk are pretty interchangeable with the ones about our local fishing town..
This is why I often mention my natal county, because I know if I am unnecessarily rude about someone's roots I will get it back in spades, but can lead to fun light banter. It also gets a better reaction from Welsh and Scots people than "English".
I'm from Planet Thanet! 😀
(Please don't judge me!)
He was proud of his roots (he'd have said "and about bloody time" when Colchester became a city), and loved all of East Anglia; he could imitate a Norfolk accent beautifully* but in the kindest possible way.
* or should that be "bootifully"?
So, the stereotype about Essex people, like that of Norfolk, is connected with impoverished rural life? If that's true, then I assume "Essex Man", as an emblematic part of the thatcherite coalition, contains conotations of nouveau riche, ie. one generation removed from the sticks, but elevated(somehow undeservedly, it is thought) into the propertied class, with accompanying tackiness and overindulgence?
Due to the sudden injection of oil wealth into Alberta, the province sometimes gets caricatured that way, eg. "A place that went from poverty to decadence, without passing through civilization". (Which I believe is actually a recycled bit of anti-Texas bile.)
Thanks!
Can't recall the exact wording of the quote as I saw it applied to Alberta. "Barbarism" might have been a little too acerbic for that particular context(light-humour column, mainstream magazine), though portrayals such as the first X-Men movie would certainly fit the epithet.
No, the Essex stereotype is completely different - it’s about a combination of working class Londoners made good moving out of London, and working class Londoners moved out because of the blitz and slum clearance.
Basically it’s a mix of nouveau rich, Thatcherite working class, and ‘not proper rural.’
Of course, when people think Essex, they’re not thinking the East Anglian bits that are like Norfolk and Suffolk, they’re thinking Chigwell, Loughton, Epping, Basildon, Harlow - there’re also elements of ‘White Flight’ caught up in it too.
Essex - in rhe stereotype (IMO) - is about working class urbanites running away/moving away/being moved to a county adjacent to London and then being flashy/trashy/tacky etc - so in some ways you diagnosed the symptoms right but not the cause!
The 90s tv sitcom Birds of a Feather has much to answer for on this point. as does Made in Essex - though the latter was consciously feeding off the trope that the former helped create.
Thanks. And just since it's the nearest example...
David as described by @Piglet would be someone rooted in traditional Essex culture, but he wouldn't be an "Essex Man".
(I'm just a little confused, because you said "...the Essex stereotype...", but then went on to describe Essex Man.)
Basically, it sounds like "Essex Man" reverses the typical sticks-to-city pipeline for upward mobility, with the lower-class leaving the urban areas and heading out to the countryside, but not embracing, even ostensibly, traditional rural culture.
Essex (wo)man is (for better or worse) the Essex stereotype. People who have been there longer either resent it bitterly, or embrace it - whether ironically, defensively or because they like it.
So you mean the political caricature of new-money thatcherites is the main stereotype that people have about Essex?
(The latter I remember because it's also the name of my hometown.)
The Thatcherite bit is a slight red herring IMO. That exists, but everything else is layered around it, and not everyone in Essex is or was one.
It's difficult to do this - even in Epiphanies - without sounding potentially offensive, but on the basis of being English and having relatives in Thaxted and innumerable trips to visit old university friends in Woodford Green and Loughton....
IMO there are (at least) three Essexes, and the first two get overshadowed by the third, which is where the stereotype comes from.
1) deep rural East Anglia - Thaxted, Saffron Walden, Finchingfield etc - this is what you will have seen on Lovejoy, what Constable was painting, and absolutely *not* what most people in the UK would think of if you said 'Essex' to them
2) Old more urban Essex - Colchester, Chelmsford, etc - more settled populations (aside from the garrison troops) and a sense of being anywhere in small-town England - but with nice vernacular architecture (I don't mean to be too pejorative there, it's just that they don't much fit the stereotype either.
3) Essex stereotype - Harlow and all places named in earlier posts, plus Saaarfend (Southend) which I didn't name earlier but should have - London fringe, working class 'made good', big estates of houses (rather than houses with big estates, though there are some) ritzy, 'glamorous' for a given definition of glamour that fits with Instagram, concrete, boy racers, modified cars, drugs, people being 'flash', new money from questionable sources, baseball caps, the Gavin end of Gavin and Stacey (in some ways that worked because - again in some ways - Essex and the Valleys are not totally dissimilar, which was a clever observation on the part of the two writers)...
All of that can describe a lot of places in the UK (aside from London fringe obviously), but is associated more with Essex. At least that was the list I got when I asked the question in an East Midlands pub last night.
I think the key bit about the Essex stereotype is the 'mass working class influx from London' angle from post WW2 to date. Bits of Hertfordshire - especially Stevenage - have the same sort of associations.
Well, three of those are on the Tube lines so the London element is certainly in play there.
And so is Watford, which is an excursion into Hertfordshire.
True - and there's definitely something in that - though worth noting of course that so too on the Tube are Chesham and Amersham, and with the best will in the world Buckinghamshire just doesn't have the same connotations.
I think it's a question of volume of incomers/outgoers from London.
Mostly because it's considerably more upmarket. Buckinghamshire conjures up images of leafy suburbs and besuited businessmen getting the Met Line to their jobs in the City, whereas Romford, Dagenham, Barking et al conjure up images of, well, everything already mentioned.
I try not to be a dorky civic booster, but that's pretty cool that you know someone from Edmonton Alberta, and that you showed him Edmonton UK. I'd ask if they made any comparative commentary, but I realize that two anglosphere jurisdictions connected only by name are not likely to produce many striking commonalities, or even contrasts.
Great post.
"Big estates of houses" is, I assume, something along the lines of what North Americans call "McMansions".
And interesting that baseball caps are apparently such a novelty in the UK that they would be identified with a particular regional culture. I think they're commonplace enough in North America that most people probably wouldn't attach much signifying import to them, though they're likely still thought of as blue-collar garb.
And just to clarify, by "boy racers", you mean young guys who like to race cars in impromptu competitions along underused roads? We have those back in Edmonton as well, and there was a fatality just last week.
Ah, okay. I think this is where I got tripped up.
I was thinking Essex Man was sorta the 1980s UK version of 1980s USA's yuppies. The latter, being by definition born in the late 1940s or so, first came into their own as financially independent adults during the early 80s, and their supposed renunciation of 60s idealism for capitalist materialism got immediately associated with Reaganism.
Whereas it sounds like Essex Man goes back to suburbanization in the 1940s, with whatever later thatcherite connotations being just because city-fleeing suburbanites in general happen to be the kind of people who lean right politically.
And thanks for putting in the research hours at the pub!
So, basically just postwar suburbia.
But I don't think a North American would describe standard tract housing as "big estates of houses". More like just "suburban neighbourhoods full of houses".
In a British context, "big estates of houses" would put me in mind of something like the community portrayed in the Danny Boyle movie Millions(different region, I know). But there might be a simple terminological issue here.
An ‘estate’ is just a housing development - can be in local authority ownership ‘council estate’ or private but either way totally normal language - ‘they’re from off the estate’, ‘which estate do you live on?’ Etc
Fwiw we (someone will now undoubtedly say they do) don’t really say ‘neighbourhood’ except in the context of watch, or policing - you just wouldn’t ever say ‘what neighbourhood are you from’ - some might say ‘it’s a nice neighbourhood’ but ‘nice area’ would be far more common