It is interesting that each family have their own lexicon of acceptable phrases whose rudeness may surprise an outsider. For example, when Mrs RR and I were staying with her mother in Australia, the house's electricity supply kept failing. We called an electrician, who quickly identified the cause in the junction box. He showed us a blackened and charred wire. "It is," hes said, "Burned to buggery".
This was more than twenty years ago, but Mrs RR and I still use the phrase, "B to B" when things go pear shaped. Usually about the things I've cooked.
For the record, "buggery" refers to particular sexual acts, often associated with male homosexuals. I know that most people who use it as an expletive aren't thinking of that, but it's still, to my mind, in the same moral category as "c*cks*cker".
(And I will confess here that "c*cks*cker" has always been one of my favorite sexual curses, but I have for a long time now been trying to purge it from my vocabulary, and when eg. I spill a glass of water on my shirt, I usually manage to catch myself after the opening "caw" sound, and transform it into something less offensive.)
One I learned today. "Basket Case." We assume it means a highly emotional person. The original meaning was a derogatory term referring to a quadriplegic person--they would sit in a basket chair.
Another one, which proves it depends on context: "girl" originally used to refer to a female slave. Offensive if used in an office environment referring to a female employee. In Middle English it referred to a child of any sex.
I think it's been said before that the c word is used affectionately by some men. But then this may be true of many swear words. If you can't call your mate a big fat twat, what is the point of friendship?
I used to work with a guy who would walk in to our shared office and greet us all with a cheerful
good morning, you cunts!
Personally, I find blasphemous swearing unpleasant, and prefer people not to use it. The earthy English biological language, on the other hand, I find generally less objectionable, and use from time to time.
And I suppose I have to mention the late and unlamented Roger Fuckbythenavele here, who is, or so I gather, the earliest recorded use of the word "fuck" in the English language.
The origin of "fanny-pack" is quite interesting. It can be traced back to the medicine pouches of Native Americans. Dare I say it is similar to the sporran? There is even a similar pouch that is traced back 5,000 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_pack
I wonder if the Vietnamese picked up the word during the American occupation of their land.
Never heard of a hip pack. There is a hip flask, which I may need to finish reading this thread.
Female genitalia are 100% off limits in what I as an American understand to be normal American speech. There is no context I can think of where there isn't an underlying sense of violence.
@Stetson, the use of Latinate words and phrases in English, other than the earlier examples KarlLB cites, came into vogue during the Renaissance as a conscious, and rather mannered, effort to 'upgrade' the language.
People wanted to put English on a oar with the classical and Ronance languages so there were a lot of terms coined during the 16th and 17th centuries. Shakespeare riffs with some of them, 'silken terms precise', in his plays.
Milton was a big one for Latinising the language and he was an egg-head.
You get some good examples in the prose of Sir Thomas Browne from the mid-1600s too.
So yes, academic influence and a desire to elevate English to the status held by classical and other European languages.
Thanks! But just so I'm clear...
A word like "copulate" didn't become more common because of medieval churchmen or the Battle of Hastings, but because of the the Renaissance vogue for Latin?
I don't know why you appear to believe that Latin became more common in England after the Norman Conquest. The Normans spoke Norman French.
They were only ever a small proportion of the overall population but French became the language at court and among the nobility. Richard II is believed to be the first English King after the Norman Conquest to habitually use English, although I'm sure some of his predecessors could speak it.
Middle English, or Chaucerian English, is essentially a fusion of older forms of English with post-Conquest French influences. As French is a Romance language, some Latinate terms entered the language at that stage.
Others were added during the Renaissance when there was a conscious effort to 'upgrade' the language through Latinate expressions.
Until comparatively recently, I'd suggest that a term like 'copulate' would only have been used or understood by an educated elite.
On Latin being used by monks, yes, it pre-dates medieval times. Irish and other 'Celtic' monks used Latin. So did Anglo-Saxon monks. Educated monks in what became Wales would have spoken Brythonic or early Welsh in general conversation but used Latin litirgically.
Anglo-Saxon monks would have spoken Early English and Latin. Irish monks what became Irish-Gaelic and Latin. Pictish monks Pictish (now thought to be a Brythonic language similar to what became Welsh) and Latin.
After the Norman Conquest educated English monks would have spoken English or Norman-French (depending on their origins) and Latin.
The royal court and the nobility would have spoken Norman-French and medieval-French until English gradually became the norm.
Middle English, or Chaucerian English, is essentially a fusion of older forms of English with post-Conquest French influences.
Just to be pedantic, I believe the French influence is largely borrowing vocabulary. The underlying structure is still Germanic: although much of the cases and declensions of the Germanic languages had been worn away by Scandinavian settlers well before the Normans arrived.
As I've seen it put, English often has three synonyms for common words: a Germanic one for outdoor or work use, a French one for indoor or leisure use, and a Latinate one for academic or official use. (Sometimes there are more: an early French one and a later French one, or a Latinate one and a Greek one.)
On Latin being used by monks, yes, it pre-dates medieval times. Irish and other 'Celtic' monks used Latin. So did Anglo-Saxon monks.
Irish and Anglo-Saxon monks are medieval times: the Middle Ages start with the end of the Western Roman Empire (although when that is is fuzzy).
Middle English, or Chaucerian English, is essentially a fusion of older forms of English with post-Conquest French influences.
Just to be pedantic, I believe the French influence is largely borrowing vocabulary. The underlying structure is still Germanic: although much of the cases and declensions of the Germanic languages had been worn away by Scandinavian settlers well before the Normans arrived.
As I've seen it put, English often has three synonyms for common words: a Germanic one for outdoor or work use, a French one for indoor or leisure use, and a Latinate one for academic or official use. (Sometimes there are more: an early French one and a later French one, or a Latinate one and a Greek one.)
On Latin being used by monks, yes, it pre-dates medieval times. Irish and other 'Celtic' monks used Latin. So did Anglo-Saxon monks.
Irish and Anglo-Saxon monks are medieval times: the Middle Ages start with the end of the Western Roman Empire (although when that is is fuzzy).
Head - Germanic
Capital - Latin
Chief - Norman (Old)French
Chef - Standard (Modern) French
English doesn’t borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.
I think it's been said before that the c word is used affectionately by some men. But then this may be true of many swear words. If you can't call your mate a big fat twat, what is the point of friendship?
I used to work with a guy who would walk in to our shared office and greet us all with a cheerful
good morning, you cunts!
Personally, I find blasphemous swearing unpleasant, and prefer people not to use it. The earthy English biological language, on the other hand, I find generally less objectionable, and use from time to time.
I'm more at home with a few choice religious expletives than the biological stuff, which seems cruder.
I'd have asked your colleague not to use that term and if he persisted I'm sorry to say I'd have reported him to management and if necessary to HR. Not something I've ever done with anyone before, but I'd consider that completely unacceptable in an office setting.
I don't know why you appear to believe that Latin became more common in England after the Norman Conquest. The Normans spoke Norman French.
Yeah, I think I had somehow conflated Latin with French in my impressions of the linguistic aftermath of the Norman Conquest. Prob'ly thought that since French is a Latin tongue, it woulda been accompanied by the infusion of more directly Latin words and phrases. Thanks for the info.
As I've seen it put, English often has three synonyms for common words: a Germanic one for outdoor or work use, a French one for indoor or leisure use, and a Latinate one for academic or official use. (Sometimes there are more: an early French one and a later French one, or a Latinate one and a Greek one.)
That's interesting, I'd never heard it framed that way before.
But I wonder if someone could provide an example? I'm having trouble myself coming up with ones that fit the above schematum. ("Doctor" and "physician", for example, are both of Latin origin, and I can't think of a Germanic equivalent.)
As I've seen it put, English often has three synonyms for common words: a Germanic one for outdoor or work use, a French one for indoor or leisure use, and a Latinate one for academic or official use. (Sometimes there are more: an early French one and a later French one, or a Latinate one and a Greek one.)
That's interesting, I'd never heard it framed that way before.
But I wonder if someone could provide an example? I'm having trouble myself coming up with ones that fit the above schematum. ("Doctor" and "physician", for example, are both of Latin origin, and I can't think of a Germanic equivalent.)
As I've seen it put, English often has three synonyms for common words: a Germanic one for outdoor or work use, a French one for indoor or leisure use, and a Latinate one for academic or official use. (Sometimes there are more: an early French one and a later French one, or a Latinate one and a Greek one.)
That's interesting, I'd never heard it framed that way before.
But I wonder if someone could provide an example? I'm having trouble myself coming up with ones that fit the above schematum. ("Doctor" and "physician", for example, are both of Latin origin, and I can't think of a Germanic equivalent.)
Not quite fitting the schema, but write, scribe and scriven are of Germanic, Latin and Old French origin respectively.
Thanks. But I'm not sure those are equivalent meanings, because "stink" and "odour" refer to unpleasant smells, but "aroma" refers to pleasant ones, or, at worst, neutral.
Thanks. But I'm not sure those are equivalent meanings, because "stink" and "odour" refer to unpleasant smells, but "aroma" refers to pleasant ones, or, at worst, neutral.
That's part of what tends to happen with these collections - they're seldom complete synonyms in the modern language but have acquired nuances. The Germanic word gains a negative connotation whilst the French/Latin ones more positive. While "odour" is generally used of bad smells, it's got a slightly euphemistic, polite feel to it compared with "stink".
"You have a BO problem" is pretty blunt, but "you stink" far more so.
On the word :stink', there is an anecdote about Samuel Johnson.
'Fie, Doctor Johnson, how you smell of Tobzcco!'
'Madam, you are in error. You smell, i stink.'
On Latin being used by monks, yes, it pre-dates medieval times.
It was said, in the Anglo-Saxon period, that the monks in Britain spoke the best Latin, because their Latin wasn't as vulnerable to being adulterated by early French or Italian as that of the French and Italian monks...
On Latin being used by monks, yes, it pre-dates medieval times.
It was said, in the Anglo-Saxon period, that the monks in Britain spoke the best Latin, because their Latin wasn't as vulnerable to being adulterated by early French or Italian as that of the French and Italian monks...
I seem to recall a similar claim with regard to the quality of Latin used in Saepias Officio, the CofE response to Apostolicae Curae.
I had a book of Latin obscenities once, garnered from various classic texts. They tended to be more sexual than scatological. Some languages tend more towards one type than the other. I got the impression the author had enjoyed putting the book together.
Stetson re doctor and physician
the usual word for 'doctor' (when it is not an academic title ) is 'Arzt' in German
This word of Greek origin appears in English in the form of 'psychiatrist' with the 'atrist' bit referring to a 'doctor' 'Seelenarzt' is now a sometimes humourous word for 'psychiatrist
Tierarzt or animal doctor is a 'vet' Zahnarzt or toothdoctor is a dentist.
When I worked in Kalamazoo (many years ago now) my research colleagues were highly amused, and a little shocked, that back in my home villgage our scout group had a 'Beaver Patrol'. Similarly, I was able to inform them that 'fanny' had a different connotation in the UK. Mrs RR was not amused when I brought her back a US video, 'Fitnesss for firmer Fannies', which I thought she would find hilarious.
Thanks. But I'm not sure those are equivalent meanings, because "stink" and "odour" refer to unpleasant smells, but "aroma" refers to pleasant ones, or, at worst, neutral.
That's part of what tends to happen with these collections - they're seldom complete synonyms in the modern language but have acquired nuances. The Germanic word gains a negative connotation whilst the French/Latin ones more positive. While "odour" is generally used of bad smells, it's got a slightly euphemistic, polite feel to it compared with "stink".
"You have a BO problem" is pretty blunt, but "you stink" far more so.
Valid observations, though they somewhat complicate the indoor/ourdoor/etc posited by @KarlLB, by adding an element of good/bad.
When I worked in Kalamazoo (many years ago now) my research colleagues were highly amused, and a little shocked, that back in my home villgage our scout group had a 'Beaver Patrol'.
In early 80s Canada(and prob'ly elsewhere), there was a vogue for t-shirts with iron-on decals featuring humourous cartoons and captions. A few of them played on the double meaning of "beaver", with at least one of those exploiting the animal's status as Canada's national symbol.
"If you're Canadian, show us your beaver!" Accompanied by an image of a woman posed suggestively with a specimen of castor canadensis.
Assuming the target customer for this sartorial witticism was young heterosexual males, I do wonder how sporting the shirts helped or hindered their interaction with women.
When I worked in Kalamazoo (many years ago now) my research colleagues were highly amused, and a little shocked, that back in my home villgage our scout group had a 'Beaver Patrol'. Similarly, I was able to inform them that 'fanny' had a different connotation in the UK. Mrs RR was not amused when I brought her back a US video, 'Fitnesss for firmer Fannies', which I thought she would find hilarious.
When I worked in Kalamazoo (many years ago now) my research colleagues were highly amused, and a little shocked, that back in my home villgage our scout group had a 'Beaver Patrol'.
In early 80s Canada(and prob'ly elsewhere), there was a vogue for t-shirts with iron-on decals featuring humourous cartoons and captions. A few of them played on the double meaning of "beaver", with at least one of those exploiting the animal's status as Canada's national symbol.
"If you're Canadian, show us your beaver!" Accompanied by an image of a woman posed suggestively with a specimen of castor canadensis.
Assuming the target customer for this sartorial witticism was young heterosexual males, I do wonder how sporting the shirts helped or hindered their interaction with women.
I was at a church social some years ago and in the engaging slide show a random picture of a kitten popped up. A gay guy said audibly "Oooh, I don't like pussy". Laff? I nearly passed me fags round.
When I worked in Kalamazoo (many years ago now) my research colleagues were highly amused, and a little shocked, that back in my home villgage our scout group had a 'Beaver Patrol'.
In early 80s Canada(and prob'ly elsewhere), there was a vogue for t-shirts with iron-on decals featuring humourous cartoons and captions. A few of them played on the double meaning of "beaver", with at least one of those exploiting the animal's status as Canada's national symbol.
"If you're Canadian, show us your beaver!" Accompanied by an image of a woman posed suggestively with a specimen of castor canadensis.
Assuming the target customer for this sartorial witticism was young heterosexual males, I do wonder how sporting the shirts helped or hindered their interaction with women.
I was at a church social some years ago and in the engaging slide show a random picture of a kitten popped up. A gay guy said audibly "Oooh, I don't like pussy". Laff? I nearly passed me fags round.
I've seen the same basic animal set-up used for anti-gay jokes(one of them with "beaver" actually), though obviously the context is different when it's a gay person making the joke.
Assuming the target customer for this sartorial witticism was young heterosexual males, I do wonder how sporting the shirts helped or hindered their interaction with women.
Depends what kind of interaction, and what kind of women, I think.
If we assume that the young heterosexual male who purchases such a shirt is in the market for as much casual heterosexual sex as he can get, one might suggest that this shirt, and similar shirts bearing other similar, rather crude puns, act as a sort of filter, attracting the sort of young heterosexual female who might be only interested in casual no-strings sex, and repelling the sort of person who is interested in an actual relationship.
I have at least anecdotal evidence from both male and female friends that there is something to this argument, but I don't think I'd want to claim it as a general rule.
Valid observations, though they somewhat complicate the indoor/ourdoor/etc posited by KarlLB, by adding an element of good/bad.
"Polite" society was indoor more often than not. I was really using it as a euphemism for associated with people who had more money.
The standard example is cow; beef ; bovine.
I have often noticed Americans describing someone (even the Queen) as badass which to me is a very offensive term and one which you would never hear in my country.
Headline in today's Guardian...
'I feel like a badass': Native American rodeo thrives as a younger generation takes the reins
They're directly quoting an American, but still likely assuming that their audience will a) be relatively laidback about seeing the word appear out-of-the-blue in a family paper, and b) have some idea what the word means.
Valid observations, though they somewhat complicate the indoor/ourdoor/etc posited by KarlLB, by adding an element of good/bad.
"Polite" society was indoor more often than not. I was really using it as a euphemism for associated with people who had more money.
The standard example is cow; beef ; bovine.
So.
The farmer says "Gotta kill the cow next week."
The semi-posh woman at the dinner table says "Pass the beef, dear."
The government health-inspector says "Food poisoning from bovine products has increased tenfold since the same period last year."
I have often noticed Americans describing someone (even the Queen) as badass which to me is a very offensive term and one which you would never hear in my country.
Headline in today's Guardian...
'I feel like a badass': Native American rodeo thrives as a younger generation takes the reins
They're directly quoting an American, but still likely assuming that their audience will a) be relatively laidback about seeing the word appear out-of-the-blue in a family paper, and b) have some idea what the word means.
I believe that the late Sir Terry Pratchett described one of his characters, a geriatric barbarian, as (I paraphrase, not having the quote to hand) "the biggest badass in the land, but a herbal suppository soon sorted that out"
I believe that the late Sir Terry Pratchett described one of his characters, a geriatric barbarian, as (I paraphrase, not having the quote to hand) "the biggest badass in the land, but a herbal suppository soon sorted that out"
He also names a village in Lancre "Bad Ass", with a long digression about how the donkey refused to walk any further, and so the village was founded on that spot, and named for the recalcitrant beast.
When I worked in Kalamazoo (many years ago now) my research colleagues
Kalamazoo! Now you don't hear that just every day! Warms my heart. Even in this thread.
WMU? K'zoo College?
I worked in research for a large pharmaceutical company. I loved the forests, the lakes, the trees in the fall and the people. At the invitation of colleagues I attended Catholic and episcopal churches. I am still in touch with one lovely couple who visited the UK before Covid.
I was truly blessed by my times there. But I had to watch my language. "I really fancy a fag". would not be the thing to say.
I believe that the late Sir Terry Pratchett described one of his characters, a geriatric barbarian, as (I paraphrase, not having the quote to hand) "the biggest badass in the land, but a herbal suppository soon sorted that out"
He also names a village in Lancre "Bad Ass", with a long digression about how the donkey refused to walk any further, and so the village was founded on that spot, and named for the recalcitrant beast.
A google on "BBC badass" turns up...
A 16 Century musical 'badass' - Gesualdo
That's also quoting an American.
And this promotional piece from their twitter account...
Little Boots saya Abba's new live band is 'badass cool'
Little Boots is apparently a British performer. And there was a promotional bit from the BBC's twitter account, suggesting "Ballsy Badass Characters" as an alternate meaning for the acronym.
So, I'll surmise that, while "badass" is probably not as commonplace a phrase in the UK as in North America, it is not these days subject to any sort of ironclad taboo.
I have often noticed Americans describing someone (even the Queen) as badass which to me is a very offensive term and one which you would never hear in my country.
Headline in today's Guardian...
'I feel like a badass': Native American rodeo thrives as a younger generation takes the reins
They're directly quoting an American, but still likely assuming that their audience will a) be relatively laidback about seeing the word appear out-of-the-blue in a family paper, and b) have some idea what the word means.
I believe that the late Sir Terry Pratchett described one of his characters, a geriatric barbarian, as (I paraphrase, not having the quote to hand) "the biggest badass in the land, but a herbal suppository soon sorted that out"
Mm yes and Robert Browning wrote that immortal verse in "Pippa Passes:
"But at night, brother Howlet, far over the woods,
Toll the world to thy chantry;
Sing to the bats’ sleek sisterhoods
Full complines with gallantry:
Then, owls and bats, cowls and twats,
Monks and nuns, in a cloister’s moods,
Adjourn to the oak-stump pantry!"
I.e. people can and do use language without necessarily being aware of all the implications and nuances.
(Evidently Browning's publishers can't have been either, or they'd have said something.)
I believe that the late Sir Terry Pratchett described one of his characters, a geriatric barbarian, as (I paraphrase, not having the quote to hand) "the biggest badass in the land, but a herbal suppository soon sorted that out"
He also names a village in Lancre "Bad Ass", with a long digression about how the donkey refused to walk any further, and so the village was founded on that spot, and named for the recalcitrant beast.
A google on "BBC badass" turns up...
A 16 Century musical 'badass' - Gesualdo
That's also quoting an American.
And this promotional piece from their twitter account...
Little Boots saya Abba's new live band is 'badass cool'
Little Boots is apparently a British performer. And there was a promotional bit from the BBC's twitter account, suggesting "Ballsy Badass Characters" as an alternate meaning for the acronym.
So, I'll surmise that, while "badass" is probably not as commonplace a phrase in the UK as in North America, it is not these days subject to any sort of ironclad taboo.
'Badass' is not unknown here in the UK but would be seen as an Americanism, without that necessarily implying some kind of value judgement.
It wouldn't be regarded as particularly taboo or as a strong expletive.
Someone further upthread said it would never be used in their country - I'm not sure which country they were referring to - and certainly not in connection with the late Queen.
I've never heard it applied to Her late Majesty. If I did I'd assume it was ironic or that the speaker/writer was simply saying she could be a tough old bird.
It does carry the connotation of being 'ballsy'.
I sometimes hear the expression, 'They need to grow a pair' ie balls.
I've heard both men and women use this expression. It's a bit like 'man up', as in, 'They need to man up ...'
One could assign unwelcome or unfortunate gender specific connotations to all these terms and I certainly find them problematic.
I could well see someone assigning the descriptor to H late M after hearing the story of the "tour" she gave the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia in her Land Rover.
'Badass' is not unknown here in the UK but would be seen as an Americanism, without that necessarily implying some kind of value judgement.
It wouldn't be regarded as particularly taboo or as a strong expletive.
Someone further upthread said it would never be used in their country - I'm not sure which country they were referring to - and certainly not in connection with the late Queen.
It was @rhubarb who brought up the status of "badass" in their country. I originally assumed it was the UK, but re-reading the post(first page), I think it might be Australia, given that Australia is mentioned by name elsewhere in the post, while the UK is not.
No idea about the acceptability of "badass" in Australia. Maybe further googling is in order.
The headline for an opinion piece in the Sydney Morning Herald...
There's a badass in every woman, and that's why I hate the word 'empowerment'
And about a dozen other examples from the same paper, many of them employing the word for the purpose of critiquing gender stereotypes, including in an article about Julia Gillard.
Someone further upthread said it would never be used in their country - I'm not sure which country they were referring to - and certainly not in connection with the late Queen.
I've never heard it applied to Her late Majesty. If I did I'd assume it was ironic or that the speaker/writer was simply saying she could be a tough old bird.
The bolded is what it would mean in American usage.
“Badass” here (the US, or the American South, at least) can be used of people or things, like “a badass set of wheels.” It essentially means exceptionally cool, skilled, impressive, etc., with an undertone of someone or something not to be messed with or challenged.
“Badass” here (the US, or the American South, at least) can be used of people or things, like “a badass set of wheels.” It essentially means exceptionally cool, skilled, impressive, etc., with an undertone of someone or something not to be messed with or challenged.
“Badass” here (the US, or the American South, at least) can be used of people or things, like “a badass set of wheels.” It essentially means exceptionally cool, skilled, impressive, etc., with an undertone of someone or something not to be messed with or challenged.
"Badass" means the same thing in California.
Rather like the slangy use of 'wicked' meaning savvy, smart, impressive, trendy, cool etc rather than 'something wicked this way comes' as evil, dangerous, malicious.
“Badass” here (the US, or the American South, at least) can be used of people or things, like “a badass set of wheels.” It essentially means exceptionally cool, skilled, impressive, etc., with an undertone of someone or something not to be messed with or challenged.
"Badass" means the same thing in California.
Rather like the slangy use of 'wicked' meaning savvy, smart, impressive, trendy, cool etc rather than 'something wicked this way comes' as evil, dangerous, malicious.
During that ill-fated billboard campaign for Badass Jack's in Edmonton(with Jack sitting on a toilet), the disapproving newspaper editorial opined that "A badass means a cool customer, not a hot lunch."
("Hot lunch" usually refers to a particular act enjoyed by a coprophiliac, but in that case, I think it just meant defecation.)
Obviously, they were using "cool" to parallel "hot", but apart from that, "cool customer" fits some of the same meanings conveyed by "wicked" above, with maybe more of an emphasis on being able to stay relaxed and unperturbed in tough situations.
I once read an interview with Madonna in which she expressed her admiration for the films of Alfred Hitchcock by saying "Hitchcock was stupid", with the interviewer informing the reader that "stupid" was then-recent slang for "good".
Obviously, that didn't catch on. Probably because, unlike "sick", which can sometimes have positive connotations in certain contexts("I love HP Lovecraft, what a sick and twisted mind that guy had!"), there is really situation where "stupid" could be taken as a compliment.
Comments
For the record, "buggery" refers to particular sexual acts, often associated with male homosexuals. I know that most people who use it as an expletive aren't thinking of that, but it's still, to my mind, in the same moral category as "c*cks*cker".
(And I will confess here that "c*cks*cker" has always been one of my favorite sexual curses, but I have for a long time now been trying to purge it from my vocabulary, and when eg. I spill a glass of water on my shirt, I usually manage to catch myself after the opening "caw" sound, and transform it into something less offensive.)
Another one, which proves it depends on context: "girl" originally used to refer to a female slave. Offensive if used in an office environment referring to a female employee. In Middle English it referred to a child of any sex.
I used to work with a guy who would walk in to our shared office and greet us all with a cheerful
Personally, I find blasphemous swearing unpleasant, and prefer people not to use it. The earthy English biological language, on the other hand, I find generally less objectionable, and use from time to time.
And I suppose I have to mention the late and unlamented Roger Fuckbythenavele here, who is, or so I gather, the earliest recorded use of the word "fuck" in the English language.
Never heard of a hip pack. There is a hip flask, which I may need to finish reading this thread.
Female genitalia are 100% off limits in what I as an American understand to be normal American speech. There is no context I can think of where there isn't an underlying sense of violence.
To that flask.
I don't know why you appear to believe that Latin became more common in England after the Norman Conquest. The Normans spoke Norman French.
They were only ever a small proportion of the overall population but French became the language at court and among the nobility. Richard II is believed to be the first English King after the Norman Conquest to habitually use English, although I'm sure some of his predecessors could speak it.
Middle English, or Chaucerian English, is essentially a fusion of older forms of English with post-Conquest French influences. As French is a Romance language, some Latinate terms entered the language at that stage.
Others were added during the Renaissance when there was a conscious effort to 'upgrade' the language through Latinate expressions.
Until comparatively recently, I'd suggest that a term like 'copulate' would only have been used or understood by an educated elite.
On Latin being used by monks, yes, it pre-dates medieval times. Irish and other 'Celtic' monks used Latin. So did Anglo-Saxon monks. Educated monks in what became Wales would have spoken Brythonic or early Welsh in general conversation but used Latin litirgically.
Anglo-Saxon monks would have spoken Early English and Latin. Irish monks what became Irish-Gaelic and Latin. Pictish monks Pictish (now thought to be a Brythonic language similar to what became Welsh) and Latin.
After the Norman Conquest educated English monks would have spoken English or Norman-French (depending on their origins) and Latin.
The royal court and the nobility would have spoken Norman-French and medieval-French until English gradually became the norm.
As I've seen it put, English often has three synonyms for common words: a Germanic one for outdoor or work use, a French one for indoor or leisure use, and a Latinate one for academic or official use. (Sometimes there are more: an early French one and a later French one, or a Latinate one and a Greek one.)
Irish and Anglo-Saxon monks are medieval times: the Middle Ages start with the end of the Western Roman Empire (although when that is is fuzzy).
Head - Germanic
Capital - Latin
Chief - Norman (Old)French
Chef - Standard (Modern) French
And one might add Vocabulary.
I'm more at home with a few choice religious expletives than the biological stuff, which seems cruder.
I'd have asked your colleague not to use that term and if he persisted I'm sorry to say I'd have reported him to management and if necessary to HR. Not something I've ever done with anyone before, but I'd consider that completely unacceptable in an office setting.
Yeah, I think I had somehow conflated Latin with French in my impressions of the linguistic aftermath of the Norman Conquest. Prob'ly thought that since French is a Latin tongue, it woulda been accompanied by the infusion of more directly Latin words and phrases. Thanks for the info.
That's interesting, I'd never heard it framed that way before.
But I wonder if someone could provide an example? I'm having trouble myself coming up with ones that fit the above schematum. ("Doctor" and "physician", for example, are both of Latin origin, and I can't think of a Germanic equivalent.)
Stink/Odour/Aroma
Shit/Ordure/Faeces
Hopefully someone can think of some nicer ones...
Not quite fitting the schema, but write, scribe and scriven are of Germanic, Latin and Old French origin respectively.
Thanks. But I'm not sure those are equivalent meanings, because "stink" and "odour" refer to unpleasant smells, but "aroma" refers to pleasant ones, or, at worst, neutral.
That's part of what tends to happen with these collections - they're seldom complete synonyms in the modern language but have acquired nuances. The Germanic word gains a negative connotation whilst the French/Latin ones more positive. While "odour" is generally used of bad smells, it's got a slightly euphemistic, polite feel to it compared with "stink".
"You have a BO problem" is pretty blunt, but "you stink" far more so.
On the word :stink', there is an anecdote about Samuel Johnson.
'Fie, Doctor Johnson, how you smell of Tobzcco!'
'Madam, you are in error. You smell, i stink.'
It was said, in the Anglo-Saxon period, that the monks in Britain spoke the best Latin, because their Latin wasn't as vulnerable to being adulterated by early French or Italian as that of the French and Italian monks...
I seem to recall a similar claim with regard to the quality of Latin used in Saepias Officio, the CofE response to Apostolicae Curae.
the usual word for 'doctor' (when it is not an academic title ) is 'Arzt' in German
This word of Greek origin appears in English in the form of 'psychiatrist' with the 'atrist' bit referring to a 'doctor' 'Seelenarzt' is now a sometimes humourous word for 'psychiatrist
Tierarzt or animal doctor is a 'vet' Zahnarzt or toothdoctor is a dentist.
Valid observations, though they somewhat complicate the indoor/ourdoor/etc posited by @KarlLB, by adding an element of good/bad.
In early 80s Canada(and prob'ly elsewhere), there was a vogue for t-shirts with iron-on decals featuring humourous cartoons and captions. A few of them played on the double meaning of "beaver", with at least one of those exploiting the animal's status as Canada's national symbol.
Assuming the target customer for this sartorial witticism was young heterosexual males, I do wonder how sporting the shirts helped or hindered their interaction with women.
Funny chaps women.
I was at a church social some years ago and in the engaging slide show a random picture of a kitten popped up. A gay guy said audibly "Oooh, I don't like pussy". Laff? I nearly passed me fags round.
I've seen the same basic animal set-up used for anti-gay jokes(one of them with "beaver" actually), though obviously the context is different when it's a gay person making the joke.
Depends what kind of interaction, and what kind of women, I think.
If we assume that the young heterosexual male who purchases such a shirt is in the market for as much casual heterosexual sex as he can get, one might suggest that this shirt, and similar shirts bearing other similar, rather crude puns, act as a sort of filter, attracting the sort of young heterosexual female who might be only interested in casual no-strings sex, and repelling the sort of person who is interested in an actual relationship.
I have at least anecdotal evidence from both male and female friends that there is something to this argument, but I don't think I'd want to claim it as a general rule.
The standard example is cow; beef ; bovine.
Headline in today's Guardian...
They're directly quoting an American, but still likely assuming that their audience will a) be relatively laidback about seeing the word appear out-of-the-blue in a family paper, and b) have some idea what the word means.
So.
The farmer says "Gotta kill the cow next week."
The semi-posh woman at the dinner table says "Pass the beef, dear."
The government health-inspector says "Food poisoning from bovine products has increased tenfold since the same period last year."
Kalamazoo! Now you don't hear that just every day! Warms my heart. Even in this thread.
WMU? K'zoo College?
I believe that the late Sir Terry Pratchett described one of his characters, a geriatric barbarian, as (I paraphrase, not having the quote to hand) "the biggest badass in the land, but a herbal suppository soon sorted that out"
He also names a village in Lancre "Bad Ass", with a long digression about how the donkey refused to walk any further, and so the village was founded on that spot, and named for the recalcitrant beast.
I worked in research for a large pharmaceutical company. I loved the forests, the lakes, the trees in the fall and the people. At the invitation of colleagues I attended Catholic and episcopal churches. I am still in touch with one lovely couple who visited the UK before Covid.
I was truly blessed by my times there. But I had to watch my language. "I really fancy a fag". would not be the thing to say.
Sorry for the tangent!
I remember a book I had as a kid which had a rhyme which went something like 'From Timbuctu to Kalamazoo, it's a long way down the track.'
A google on "BBC badass" turns up...
That's also quoting an American.
And this promotional piece from their twitter account...
Little Boots is apparently a British performer. And there was a promotional bit from the BBC's twitter account, suggesting "Ballsy Badass Characters" as an alternate meaning for the acronym.
So, I'll surmise that, while "badass" is probably not as commonplace a phrase in the UK as in North America, it is not these days subject to any sort of ironclad taboo.
Mm yes and Robert Browning wrote that immortal verse in "Pippa Passes:
"But at night, brother Howlet, far over the woods,
Toll the world to thy chantry;
Sing to the bats’ sleek sisterhoods
Full complines with gallantry:
Then, owls and bats, cowls and twats,
Monks and nuns, in a cloister’s moods,
Adjourn to the oak-stump pantry!"
I.e. people can and do use language without necessarily being aware of all the implications and nuances.
(Evidently Browning's publishers can't have been either, or they'd have said something.)
'Badass' is not unknown here in the UK but would be seen as an Americanism, without that necessarily implying some kind of value judgement.
It wouldn't be regarded as particularly taboo or as a strong expletive.
Someone further upthread said it would never be used in their country - I'm not sure which country they were referring to - and certainly not in connection with the late Queen.
I've never heard it applied to Her late Majesty. If I did I'd assume it was ironic or that the speaker/writer was simply saying she could be a tough old bird.
It does carry the connotation of being 'ballsy'.
I sometimes hear the expression, 'They need to grow a pair' ie balls.
I've heard both men and women use this expression. It's a bit like 'man up', as in, 'They need to man up ...'
One could assign unwelcome or unfortunate gender specific connotations to all these terms and I certainly find them problematic.
I'm assuming 'badass' is non-gender specific.
It was @rhubarb who brought up the status of "badass" in their country. I originally assumed it was the UK, but re-reading the post(first page), I think it might be Australia, given that Australia is mentioned by name elsewhere in the post, while the UK is not.
No idea about the acceptability of "badass" in Australia. Maybe further googling is in order.
And about a dozen other examples from the same paper, many of them employing the word for the purpose of critiquing gender stereotypes, including in an article about Julia Gillard.
“Badass” here (the US, or the American South, at least) can be used of people or things, like “a badass set of wheels.” It essentially means exceptionally cool, skilled, impressive, etc., with an undertone of someone or something not to be messed with or challenged.
"Badass" means the same thing in California.
Rather like the slangy use of 'wicked' meaning savvy, smart, impressive, trendy, cool etc rather than 'something wicked this way comes' as evil, dangerous, malicious.
During that ill-fated billboard campaign for Badass Jack's in Edmonton(with Jack sitting on a toilet), the disapproving newspaper editorial opined that "A badass means a cool customer, not a hot lunch."
("Hot lunch" usually refers to a particular act enjoyed by a coprophiliac, but in that case, I think it just meant defecation.)
Obviously, they were using "cool" to parallel "hot", but apart from that, "cool customer" fits some of the same meanings conveyed by "wicked" above, with maybe more of an emphasis on being able to stay relaxed and unperturbed in tough situations.
I once read an interview with Madonna in which she expressed her admiration for the films of Alfred Hitchcock by saying "Hitchcock was stupid", with the interviewer informing the reader that "stupid" was then-recent slang for "good".
Obviously, that didn't catch on. Probably because, unlike "sick", which can sometimes have positive connotations in certain contexts("I love HP Lovecraft, what a sick and twisted mind that guy had!"), there is really situation where "stupid" could be taken as a compliment.
'... there is really no situation where "stupid" could be taken as a compliment.'
Oh I can think of one. It's a bit rude though.