Sure, but however we cut it we are all imperfect and the old adage applies, 'If you find the perfect church don't join it.'
We'd only end up spoiling it.
That's not to say we shouldn't work towards improving things wherever we are, but these days I reckon I've got all on trying to maintain my own spiritual walk without mithering whether other people display 'religiosity' or are purely 'cultural Christians' or whatever else.
That's not to be all individualistic about it, the Christian faith is a communal one.
We rub up against each other and hopefully and ideally that should smooth our rough edges.
That's not to say I'm wonderfully free of Pharisaisism, judgementalism or self-righteousness. If only that were the case.
So several people on here are talking about what has been called first principles. By this they seem to mean the practical things like love one another etc. I would argue that they are not the only first principles. Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the good news. He said if they will not listen to you shake the sand of that place off your feet. If living others is first principles, why is preaching around the place not?
'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Use words if necessary.'
That's often attributed to St Francis of Assisi I think although apparently he never said it.
I'll get flak for my usual both/and riff. I'd suggest that 'first principles' includes loving one another and proclaiming Christ by word and deed. It's not either/or.
As Gamma Gamaliel ( and others) remind us the kern of the teachings of Christ remind us always of the importance of trying to love God and to love our neighbour.
If we see Jesus only as a teacher of ethics we may forget that along with the name 'Jesus' we have also the name 'Christ' which means the anointed one of God.
I would say that it is the supernatural ideas connected with the birth, death and resurrection
of Jesus which have fascinated multitudes down through the centuries and made the ideas of 'christianity' into a world religion, more than simply a statement of good ethical practices.
I have no difficulty in saying the words of the historic creeds of christianity,even although I may interpret the statements made in them in a somewhat different way from first century followers of Christ.
Christians tend to divide into two groups,one of which sees the Church as existing throughout the ages of the Christian era and an other which sees the Church as starting now when we accept Christ into our life.
The first group has to take on board responsibility for the sometimes cruel and 'unchristian' acts of those who claim to be followers of Christ, but for those who see the Church as existing through the ages,they have to also interpret the many private revelations which their followers will have made.
I see some of these private revelations as being like the stories of the miracles of Jesus which sometimes exercise those who distrust anything which is possibly miraculous.
On 13th May 1917 three young children in Portugal claimed to have a vision of the Virgin Mary. Unsurprisingly the Virgin told them that the world was in a bad state and that it would be a good idea to 'repent and believe the Gospel' . Furthermore,in a very Catholic way, the Virgin told the children that it was a good idea to pray the Rosary and to honour her 'Immaculate Heart' and she asked them to return to this place on every 13th day of the month until 13th October when she would show them that she was the real deal.
By 13th October 1917 a crowd of over 40 000 had gathered near Fatima who witnessed the 'miracle of the dancing sun' a spectacle which was also seen many miles from Fatima.
Of the three children two died very young and one remained in a convent into her nineties of age,never retracting what she had said. When asked by those around her what the Virgin had said she told them the two things I have said but said that there was a third message which was not to be revealed until 1960. This message was to be entrusted only to the pope.
As the 1940s and 1950s progressed most Catholics would have heard of the Third Secret of Fatima and would have at least occasionally wondered what,in these dangerous times, it might be.
1960 came and went and the pope and his successors did not reveal what was contained in this Third Secret.
On 13th May 1981,by that time in the Catholic world the day of 'our Lady of Fatima' the pope,John Paul 2, was shot at close range in the square in front of St Peter's in Rome.
Was it a coincidence that it was on that day that he was shot ? He who had a great devotion to the Virgin Mary with his motto 'Totus tuus' survived the assassination attempt
and one year later on 13th May 1982 preached a powerful evangelical sermon in Fatima reminding the faithful of 'repenting and believing the Gospel.',
The bullet which had almost killed him one year previously was solemnly placed in the crown which adorns the statue of our Lady of Fatima.
It was sometime after this that it was revealed by the Vatican that this event was what was indicated by the Third Secret of Fatima
All this can be seen as bonkers or delusion but like the stories of the miracles of Jesus can be seen as something backing up the Divine in our world.
The Church,whether seen as an institution existing in visible form since the time of Christ or as something new which starts when we accept Christ as our Saviour, is always an evangelical Church,and it has to have a message to give to all,who either metaphorically or physically come through its doors.
Without going all 'Protestant' again, what strikes me about so many of these apparition and visionary stories is that what's said is so often what the local priest or ministers (of whatever type) will have been saying any way.
'Repent and believe the Gospel.'
The same applies within my own adopted Tradition of course. But we like to point the finger at 'the delinquent West' and those naughty Catholics and Protestants with all their excesses.
Meanwhile there are three fingers pointing back at us.
Without going all 'Protestant' again, what strikes me about so many of these apparition and visionary stories is that what's said is so often what the local priest or ministers (of whatever type) will have been saying any way.
'Repent and believe the Gospel.'
The same applies within my own adopted Tradition of course. But we like to point the finger at 'the delinquent West' and those naughty Catholics and Protestants with all their excesses.
Meanwhile there are three fingers pointing back at us.
Every religion,even those Christians who are called Evangelicals will have their own popular forms of that religion. Both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have many 'popular' forms which may be,like the story of Fatima,not in the official canon of beliefs,but nevertheless exercise a sometimes powerful influence on the corporate life of the religious body.
The Rosary,for example, is a well known non-dogmatic,Catholic devotional exercise.
For those who know the prayers associated with the devotion,they will know that nowadays,almost universally each decade ends with the 'Fatima prayer' which asks God to 'bring all souls to heaven,especially those most in need of this grace'.
If that is not a prayer for universal salvation then I don't know what it is,just as many people who recite it will not know that it stems from the visionaries of Fatima.
So several people on here are talking about what has been called first principles. By this they seem to mean the practical things like love one another etc. I would argue that they are not the only first principles. Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the good news. He said if they will not listen to you shake the sand of that place off your feet. If living others is first principles, why is preaching around the place not?
"Good news" is a pretty broad category. Are you referring to what Jesus himself taught, or what the disciples came to believe about Jesus?
Comments
We'd only end up spoiling it.
That's not to say we shouldn't work towards improving things wherever we are, but these days I reckon I've got all on trying to maintain my own spiritual walk without mithering whether other people display 'religiosity' or are purely 'cultural Christians' or whatever else.
That's not to be all individualistic about it, the Christian faith is a communal one.
We rub up against each other and hopefully and ideally that should smooth our rough edges.
That's not to say I'm wonderfully free of Pharisaisism, judgementalism or self-righteousness. If only that were the case.
That's often attributed to St Francis of Assisi I think although apparently he never said it.
I'll get flak for my usual both/and riff. I'd suggest that 'first principles' includes loving one another and proclaiming Christ by word and deed. It's not either/or.
They should go together.
If we see Jesus only as a teacher of ethics we may forget that along with the name 'Jesus' we have also the name 'Christ' which means the anointed one of God.
I would say that it is the supernatural ideas connected with the birth, death and resurrection
of Jesus which have fascinated multitudes down through the centuries and made the ideas of 'christianity' into a world religion, more than simply a statement of good ethical practices.
I have no difficulty in saying the words of the historic creeds of christianity,even although I may interpret the statements made in them in a somewhat different way from first century followers of Christ.
Christians tend to divide into two groups,one of which sees the Church as existing throughout the ages of the Christian era and an other which sees the Church as starting now when we accept Christ into our life.
The first group has to take on board responsibility for the sometimes cruel and 'unchristian' acts of those who claim to be followers of Christ, but for those who see the Church as existing through the ages,they have to also interpret the many private revelations which their followers will have made.
I see some of these private revelations as being like the stories of the miracles of Jesus which sometimes exercise those who distrust anything which is possibly miraculous.
On 13th May 1917 three young children in Portugal claimed to have a vision of the Virgin Mary. Unsurprisingly the Virgin told them that the world was in a bad state and that it would be a good idea to 'repent and believe the Gospel' . Furthermore,in a very Catholic way, the Virgin told the children that it was a good idea to pray the Rosary and to honour her 'Immaculate Heart' and she asked them to return to this place on every 13th day of the month until 13th October when she would show them that she was the real deal.
By 13th October 1917 a crowd of over 40 000 had gathered near Fatima who witnessed the 'miracle of the dancing sun' a spectacle which was also seen many miles from Fatima.
Of the three children two died very young and one remained in a convent into her nineties of age,never retracting what she had said. When asked by those around her what the Virgin had said she told them the two things I have said but said that there was a third message which was not to be revealed until 1960. This message was to be entrusted only to the pope.
As the 1940s and 1950s progressed most Catholics would have heard of the Third Secret of Fatima and would have at least occasionally wondered what,in these dangerous times, it might be.
1960 came and went and the pope and his successors did not reveal what was contained in this Third Secret.
On 13th May 1981,by that time in the Catholic world the day of 'our Lady of Fatima' the pope,John Paul 2, was shot at close range in the square in front of St Peter's in Rome.
Was it a coincidence that it was on that day that he was shot ? He who had a great devotion to the Virgin Mary with his motto 'Totus tuus' survived the assassination attempt
and one year later on 13th May 1982 preached a powerful evangelical sermon in Fatima reminding the faithful of 'repenting and believing the Gospel.',
The bullet which had almost killed him one year previously was solemnly placed in the crown which adorns the statue of our Lady of Fatima.
It was sometime after this that it was revealed by the Vatican that this event was what was indicated by the Third Secret of Fatima
All this can be seen as bonkers or delusion but like the stories of the miracles of Jesus can be seen as something backing up the Divine in our world.
The Church,whether seen as an institution existing in visible form since the time of Christ or as something new which starts when we accept Christ as our Saviour, is always an evangelical Church,and it has to have a message to give to all,who either metaphorically or physically come through its doors.
I don't think the Russians were best pleased about that.
Mind you, looking at a certain Russian leader ...
It's interesting that the Vatican only 'revealed' the alleged Third Message after the apparent event.
But then the Gospels were also written 'after the event' as it were.
It's a bit like the 'Holy Fire' in the Church of The Holy Sepulchre which some Orthodox claim 'proves' the correct date for Easter.
I'm not sure where folk-religion and what we might call more nuanced faith meet or blend.
Pah!
'Repent and believe the Gospel.'
The same applies within my own adopted Tradition of course. But we like to point the finger at 'the delinquent West' and those naughty Catholics and Protestants with all their excesses.
Meanwhile there are three fingers pointing back at us.
Like Kyril's reverse vampire watch?
The Rosary,for example, is a well known non-dogmatic,Catholic devotional exercise.
For those who know the prayers associated with the devotion,they will know that nowadays,almost universally each decade ends with the 'Fatima prayer' which asks God to 'bring all souls to heaven,especially those most in need of this grace'.
If that is not a prayer for universal salvation then I don't know what it is,just as many people who recite it will not know that it stems from the visionaries of Fatima.
"Good news" is a pretty broad category. Are you referring to what Jesus himself taught, or what the disciples came to believe about Jesus?