Finding a new (ecclesiastical) home
Long story short - I'm in the rather unexpected situation of moving on from a church that I've been a part of for a very very long time and trying (with Mrs Twang and the smallest twanglet) to find a new church.
We're working through our long list of local options visiting a variety of services. It does feel like being an unofficial mystery worshipper.
It seems strange to be assessing a community with the hope of finding somewhere where we can be a blessing whilst being loved and spiritually nourished on the basis of what is in essence a free concert interrupted by a lecture with some children's activities.
Lots of people find themselves in this type of situation at various times for a variety of reasons.
I was wondering if any shipmates have experiences that they would like to share or any wise counsel?
We're working through our long list of local options visiting a variety of services. It does feel like being an unofficial mystery worshipper.
It seems strange to be assessing a community with the hope of finding somewhere where we can be a blessing whilst being loved and spiritually nourished on the basis of what is in essence a free concert interrupted by a lecture with some children's activities.
Lots of people find themselves in this type of situation at various times for a variety of reasons.
I was wondering if any shipmates have experiences that they would like to share or any wise counsel?
Comments
Initially we felt emotionally bruised and weren't looking for anywhere else. The NE Man and I took turns to stay at home with our toddler, while the other one went to the University church where we were anonymous.
However, when I was pregnant with our second we felt we ought to find another church, as we knew we would want our second baptised, and both children brought up in a church.
The minister of the first church we tried knew what had happened in our previous church and paid us a pastoral visit very quickly. We were the only refugees from Church 1 in that particular church, but it seemed that the wider church had concerns for those that had left. We were welcomed with open arms, and were very happy there. We left when we moved out of the area, but twenty years on we are still in touch with several members of the congregation, and have revisited to support coffee mornings etc.
For the best part of 15 years, I was *out of the loop* church-wise, until (following marriage breakdown number 2 - I'm not very good at that sort of relationship thing
Time passed, and eventually I became Lay Reader at a church a little further away (the Our Place of these boards), but have now retired due to ill-health. I maintain a friendly correspondence with the priest, and others, and look after the parish website, although I can no longer attend services.
If @Twangist you are of the C of E persuasion, I recommend you seek out your nearest Cathedral, or large MOTR church. You may well find, as I did, that they ask few or no questions, but will welcome you and yours, at whatever *level* you find comfortable.
Don’t be in a hurry, the right door will open in God’s time. While waiting, why not enjoy a bit of exploration and church-hopping.
And pray.
the Methodist Church and the Evangelical United Brethren Church. This led to shotgun marriages between congregations, and there were people who quit as a result.
These things aren't easy and no two circumstances are alike.
It is easier, of course, if you are of a 'niche' persuasion. 'I must go to another Methodist church ...', 'I have to remain Roman Catholic...' etc
If it's the broad charismatic-lite o'sphere which is where most charismatic evangelical churches tend to be at these days, then it's going to be an issue of whereyiu feel you can fit in. Free concert plus lecture and kids' activities is pretty much the standard menu in such churches these days.
Do you mind my quoting you on that?
I'm not knocking that, you understand, simply saying - if it were even necessary - that issues other than style and format are going to come into it under such circumstances.
Ultimately, you are going to have to go with your gut.
Unless you suddenly say, 'I want something ultra-high and sacramentalist' or 'I only want to go somewhere where they take this particular interpretation of this particular passage or issue' - then the world's your oyster. A tyranny of choice.
I hope it works out for you and Mrs Twang and the Twanglets wherever you end up.
I'm sure you will find somewhere you find conducive and where you can all make a valuable contribution.
I suppose that the issue with the concert/lecture/colouring experience is how one reads it to discern if this is a healthy and suitable context to replant ourselves.
I echo the above sentiment about going on God’s time and going where you’re led. Leaving a church you’ve been at for a long time is like leaving a relationship, there’s no need to hurry into another very quickly. Anonymous hopping around, and even no church! (But lots of prayer) can be a good thing.
I settled in a church with a strong musical tradition and soon joined the choir. At that point we were in interregnum, but the new vicar finally clinched it for me. She is just the opposite of the one in my previous church, a warm, approachable person, full of ideas but a facilitator rather than a dictator. When lockdown came, with services and choir practices over Zoom, strong bonds were formed. The choir forms my regular unit of friends. The style of worship suits me, with things done ‘ properly’ but with variety and flexibility.
The previous major change for me was from an independent evangelical Baptist church to the C of E, thanks to the ‘student- focussed’ church in my university city.
I wish you well Twangist.
And is it fair to add to your list of qualities "a degree of anonymity impossible in an ordinary parish church" - or is covered by the "unobtrusive welcome"? St Sanity has taken in several people in the situation you describes as yours, and a year or so later they said that it was that which they valued most. A chance to worship without being questioned to a level they found uncomfortable.
I wrote back to the People's Warden detailing my experience of the Cathedral, and stating that I would not be available to fundraise as I was moving to another city.
Visiting the Quaker Meeting in that city was, if you will pardon the pun, a much more Friendly experience. In hindsight, I should have gone back there.
Pitching "welcome" at the right level for different people's circumstances and sensibilities must be hard.
It is, but my experience the best way to approach the problem is to give some very basic information and then give the newcomer quite a bit of control and power over the direction to be taken: "Now, I've given you an outline, what are the sorts of specifics you'd like to explore" is a gentle way to do that
Fixed code - la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
Yes, I was indeed referring to that degree of anonymity which one often finds, although I agree with @Huia and at @Twangist that this may seem unwelcoming to some.
Mind you, being totally ignored, and then asked to help fundraise for the choir's trip was a bit much...
As to the balance - there's a difference between making sure that someone will bring any newcomers in to morning tea and have a general chat with them, on the one hand, and pressing them as to why they attended that morning, where their usual parish is, and so forth.
In some churches it is quite easy to slip in and out: in others, not so much.
The difficulty is at the stage when you are sizing a place up and don’t want to give too much away or get involved, but want to test the friendliness of the people.
This.
Cathedrals tend to have fairly large congregations these days (I wonder why?
Obviously, there are great variations, but some of the post-Covid online services on YouTube etc. show that some churches, at least, are not getting much above that average number.
Many years ago, I was doing the rounds of churches in the area in which I then lived, sizing the places up. I remember visiting one church where it was difficult to slip past the vicar shaking hands at the door, but I managed it whilst they were shaking hands with someone else. Only to have the vicar follow me out to engage me in (unwanted) conversation. I didn't return.
I'm finding myself sketching out various versions (short, medium, long) of our "story" with the added complication of finding (unsurprisingly after living here for decades) that every church we visit contains folk we've met in one context or another.
We considered changing churches when we were young marrieds after a parish controversy. We decided against it and were glad we stayed as we got to participate in and enjoy the parish recovery and all that went with that. A couple of years later we moved on as we obtained jobs in a new city and with a young daughter we wanted more family time and less time with husband commuting
We had two sets of friends in our new location and decided early on that we could not attend either of their churches without upsetting the other couple and we wanted to remain on good terms with both. We decided to check out our local Anglican church and have remained there for almost 30 years. It followed the familiar prayer book, had a good mix of ages and for our toddler, little girls of a similar age. That was the main factor in deciding to stay and commit to that parish and form relationships in our local community. Potentially there could have been many parishes that would have suited husband and I, but not always ones with children. The parish that one of our friend families attended was visited by a parish member who by report indicated that they had gotten rid of all the small children, quite mind boggling!!
I have to confess that we had no real hard and fast must haves other than it must work for our child. We were fine with a mix of music, noisy teenagers, hand wavers, not hand wavers, good and not so good sermons and a Parish that didn’t leap to push us into rosters or responsibilities the minute we arrived. YMMV.
There seem to be less than 7 degrees of separation in the Christian world/subculture
I do have three pieces of advice. The first I took from the ship boards at the time, is do not tell people about the ins and outs of why you left your previous church. Secondly do not compare or worse still make the new church like your last one. Third give yourself time to grieve if you have fallen out of your church.
*'out of' is not a mistake
** you have not idea how difficult even a decade later it is to type "previous" when I talk about that church and I am much happier than I ever was at my previous church.
Grief is a very real emotion in this experience especially when trying to untangle the proportions of falling out and being nudged out.
I would hope that is the primary reason for congregational shopping. Which congregation gives you the opportunity to see Jesus more clearly. No one congregation can claim to present the clearest picture, I think. But that is what I would be looking for.
And how would you know? I can only speak for myself, but I can't translate that sort of lofty ambition into anything I could actually look for on the ground.
For me, I'm looking for somewhere I feel like I can belong. Unfortunately as a middle-aged autistic man, it's often a case of which group of neuro-typical elderly women feels least alien. The nearest church I feel anything like comfortable in is fifteen miles away which makes it very difficult to be properly part of the community.
Trying somewhere different tomorrow.
In a church that I'm happy in (as I am in my present church) the other people there and the caring support that the church offers, along with the overall churchmanship (liberal/evangelical/liturgical etc) are far more important to me than the present minister's particular beliefs or practices. This is because this style of church government provides considerable protection against a new minister who might differ in too many ways important to this congregation. The congregation calls a particular minister and everyone gets a vote. A church is therefore very unlikely to end up with someone that doesn't fit in with the overall emphasis that is valued by most people in the Congregation.
It doesn't mean that the new minister will be a clone of the previous...our present minister is rather more liberal, and has a different skillset to our previous one (his biggest strength is pastoral work, whereas our previous minister's distinctive quality was excellent preaching) but both could work well with the people in the church, and fall within the scope of what most of us are comfortable with.
So in a congregational setting, the hardest thing is to find a church that you fit in.....then stick with it! I've been in my church now for over 15 years which is probably longer than I've been anywhere else in my life.
Not much help to Anglicans Catholics Methodists etc I realise, but just saying!
The flipside of congregational polity is, it seems to me, a lack of protection for a minister against a congregation that has hire and fire privileges.
Spend a few weeks at home on a Sunday. De-stress from the pressures of churches.
What do you miss? And you should then know enough to identify where you can find this (at least in terms of church style).
Internet research can also then give insights into whether a specific place is giving the right vibe.
I found myself with the Quakers, because what I needed was a community of people interested in seeking truth. And I found it.
But my principle for decades has been that you will not get all of your spiritual needs met at a faith group. So feed the ones you can from elsewhere, and what is missing, that is your group.
It is sometimes hard to avoid all the other stuff, but if it gives you the piece you need, you are liable to be happy.
Obviously a visit is then needed, to see if they meet your expectations. And the core question to ask yourself is: Do you meet with God there? Does whatever it is that you are needing from the group exist there and do you find it fills your gap?
Now obviously, where there are two or three of you - as in your case - this is a much harder problem to identify a) what is needed and b) whether this place fits your needs. But hopefully, you can find a route forward.
And this is the worrying bit. The answer is Absolutely Nothing.
Church has always been a thing I did because you're apparently meant to.
Yes. A congregationalist church will tend to choose (and keep) a Minister it likes, when what it may need is someone who's going to upset things a bit. A polity in which a Minister can be parachuted in can be disastrous, conversely The Powers That Be may think carefully and put in a disrupter who they know will be good for a church that has become too "cosy".
I don't get involved with the politics and steer clear of cliques.
Would not miss terrible homilies and noisy toddlers.
I agree. Hence my comment on another thread about Finding out who your real friends are.
Finding the energy to make the effort can be tricky though.
The ELCA process is similar to what is described above. I would point out, though, the first thing a congregational call committee is to do is a survey of the congregation's needs and expectations. This information is shared with the local synodical bishop who reviews it and matches it with a list of possible candidates that are available. The bishop will then refer the name of a candidate to the call committee. The call committee invites the candidate to come for an interview. Sometimes, the congregation also participates in the interview process. If the call committee is satisfied with the candidate, it them makes a recommendation to the congregation voters for an up or down vote. If the congregation agrees to issue the call, the candidate has about 30 days to consider it. If the candidate accepts the call, it is usually up to the receiving congregation and candidate to arrange a timeline for the move.
If the basket - be it church, a political or voluntary group, a special interest group, club or society of whatever kind - breaks then we lose all our eggs.
It's easier said than done, of course.
I'm beginning to forge friendships in my church but don't want to get drawn in to the extent- as I've done in the past - where practically everyone I spend time with are members of my church group.
As a single widowed bloke it's something I'm particularly aware of.
I don't so much find the idea of all ones friends being at church odd so much as the notion that if you stopped going they would cease to be your friends.
Thats interesting. I guess I am a bit of a loner. I have never found friend making easy or even a great priority, and I find social occasions/settings difficult.
Having said that .... they are the ones I count as friends. And I would miss them and the particular church community we belong to.
I'm very much the same. Nevertheless less, friends are people I'd still see out of church if I wasn't going.
Yes. I find that odd too. I'm on good terms with people from previous church settings but I know of instances where friendships have been broken by changes in affiliation.
I think that's the thing for me - I never feel part of this community. I'm not sure I even know what it means. I don't have a huge number of acquaintances ever - for one thing it's as much as I can do to remember the names of more than half a dozen people.
I think perhaps part of the problem is locality. The church I feel nearest to being "at home" in is fifteen miles away. Its focus of community activity is on its parish, which being in a city is a couple of square miles or so, far from the community in which I live. The logistics are such that I had to drop out of being in the choir (all of us getting there an hour before the service so I can make the practice just wasn't reasonable) and the various groups and whatnot that run are all on weekday evenings which already tend towards the full.
The parish church where I *do* live is very introspective; inevitably so given the demographics and size of its congregation. We have a few times tried to make it our church but it just doesn't work.
Two responses, there is omore than one model of friendship. Before I retired I had people at work that I counted as friends without ever meeting them outside work. They are friends in that context. And of course we are a varied lot and one model of relationships doesn't fit all.
The other thought is that maybe I could have used the word community as well, as they are friendships rooted in the community and in our various roles there.