The UK Labour Party

HugalHugal Shipmate
As it seems inevitable that the current Labour Party will form the next government here in the UK, I thought it would be good to start a thread. The push to the right has got a decent amount of Labour supporters, including me thinking of putting their vote somewhere else. Big name supporters such as Owen Jones are leaving the party.
What difference is there between Labour and Conservative. As far as I can see the colour of the rosette. Austerity policies, the two child benefit cap, the flip flopping of policy, and throwing out if left leaning MPs has made me all but give up on them. They are even getting rid of the North East mayor who has done wonders for the area but is left leaning. Take the red rosette of Starmer you are destroying Labour.
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Comments

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    It is dilemma. However I have an excellent Labour MP. She will continue to get my vote.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Hugal wrote: »
    The push to the right has got a decent amount of Labour supporters, including me thinking of putting their vote somewhere else.
    Yeah, great idea, split the vote and leave the door wide open for the tories
    What difference is there between Labour and Conservative. As far as I can see the colour of the rosette. Austerity policies, the two child benefit cap, the flip flopping of policy,
    Current pledges include getting rid of zero hour contracts, restoring powers to trade unions and building 1.5 million affordable homes within the first five years.
  • As always, the Left eats itself and lets the perfect be the enemy of the good. We can never win that way.

    Is Labour as Left as I would like? No. But is it a right wing party? Not remotely. To come to that conclusion, you have to believe the headlines and the superficial analysis of the poorer parts of our media.

    Go find some serious analysis; like this:
    https://twitter.com/ianmulheirn/status/1770150408897347655?t=mDHsjzFd6XfhWl1_NjxkSQ&s=19

    Should we hold feet to fire? Of course. Should we push Left? Absolutely. But this is a purgatory conversation, at least let Starmer become PM before the Hell call....

    Whilst Labour talks to the centre, look at what they actually do.

    :eyeroll:

    AFZ
  • I think Owen Jones was saying vote for other parties. The Tories will be loving that, as Spike said.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I think Owen Jones was saying vote for other parties. The Tories will be loving that, as Spike said.

    If you listen to what he says you are not quite right. He accepts that Labour will win. It is a bit complicated but he is basically wanting people to send a message to Labour.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    As always, the Left eats itself and lets the perfect be the enemy of the good. We can never win that way.

    Is Labour as Left as I would like? No. But is it a right wing party? Not remotely. To come to that conclusion, you have to believe the headlines and the superficial analysis of the poorer parts of our media.

    Go find some serious analysis; like this:
    https://twitter.com/ianmulheirn/status/1770150408897347655?t=mDHsjzFd6XfhWl1_NjxkSQ&s=19

    Should we hold feet to fire? Of course. Should we push Left? Absolutely. But this is a purgatory conversation, at least let Starmer become PM before the Hell call....

    Whilst Labour talks to the centre, look at what they actually do.

    :eyeroll:

    AFZ

    It is not Purg for me. I am ranting. I am looking at what they are doing and they are promising all sorts of things and changing it when it doesn’t look right. Pledge after pleadge out of the window.
    I am not calling Starmer to Hell. I am have started a Hell thread on Labour because IMHO they cannot be trusted to do what they promised. They are being lead by a man who broke pledges when it was convenient. The leadership has taken that on board. The two child benefit cap will put millions of kids in poverty or further into poverty. Just because I don’t often swear doesn’t mean I am not ranting.
  • Spike wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    The push to the right has got a decent amount of Labour supporters, including me thinking of putting their vote somewhere else.
    Yeah, great idea, split the vote and leave the door wide open for the tories

    At this point the Tory vote has collapsed; those doing the waggy finger act can feel free to show the rest of us what they are doing to push Labour to the left.

    Should we hold feet to fire? Of course. Should we push Left? Absolutely.

    How do you propose to do that once they are ensconced in power with a - projected - large majority, especially given that they've been running their selections in such a way as to minimize internal dissent.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host

    How do you propose to do that once they are ensconced in power with a - projected - large majority, especially given that they've been running their selections in such a way as to minimize internal dissent.

    And questions have been raised about the degree to which the electronic balloting for those selections has been free and fair, given large disparities between in-person and electronic voting, lack of oversight of the online process, and it being run by Labour regional offices rather than anyone independent. There isn't a smoking gun pointing directly to vote rigging or tampering but there are certainly unanswered questions.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    I think Owen Jones was saying vote for other parties. The Tories will be loving that, as Spike said.

    If you listen to what he says you are not quite right. He accepts that Labour will win. It is a bit complicated but he is basically wanting people to send a message to Labour.

    Well, I could vote Tory, that would really send a message.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    "Sending a mesaage" is how we got brexit. I think using words to articulate a message is likely to be more useful - if every Labour Party member wrote to the party with a bullet point list of their concerns it would be more functional.
  • As @Alan Cresswell says often, Democracy is not voting every few years. It's so much more than that.
    Hugal wrote: »
    As always, the Left eats itself and lets the perfect be the enemy of the good. We can never win that way.

    Is Labour as Left as I would like? No. But is it a right wing party? Not remotely. To come to that conclusion, you have to believe the headlines and the superficial analysis of the poorer parts of our media.

    Go find some serious analysis; like this:
    https://twitter.com/ianmulheirn/status/1770150408897347655?t=mDHsjzFd6XfhWl1_NjxkSQ&s=19

    Should we hold feet to fire? Of course. Should we push Left? Absolutely. But this is a purgatory conversation, at least let Starmer become PM before the Hell call....

    Whilst Labour talks to the centre, look at what they actually do.

    :eyeroll:

    AFZ

    It is not Purg for me. I am ranting. I am looking at what they are doing and they are promising all sorts of things and changing it when it doesn’t look right. Pledge after pleadge out of the window.
    I am not calling Starmer to Hell. I am have started a Hell thread on Labour because IMHO they cannot be trusted to do what they promised. They are being lead by a man who broke pledges when it was convenient. The leadership has taken that on board. The two child benefit cap will put millions of kids in poverty or further into poverty. Just because I don’t often swear doesn’t mean I am not ranting.

    I mean, bloody hell, they haven't even published the manifesto yet...
  • Hugal wrote: »
    I think Owen Jones was saying vote for other parties. The Tories will be loving that, as Spike said.

    If you listen to what he says you are not quite right. He accepts that Labour will win. It is a bit complicated but he is basically wanting people to send a message to Labour.

    Well, I could vote Tory, that would really send a message.

    One could always vote Green. There are a number of constituencies - Bristol West springs to mind - where this is a feasible alternative.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    "Sending a mesaage" is how we got brexit. I think using words to articulate a message is likely to be more useful - if every Labour Party member wrote to the party with a bullet point list of their concerns it would be more functional.

    No it wouldn't, because the current leadership don't give a runny shit what the members think until and unless it affects their ability to hold onto power. The ballot box is the only message they understand.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    I don't think that is true.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    But, the ballot box is also an extremely ineffective way to send a message. In any constituency you have Y voters and X of those vote Labour. Why did the X vote Labour? Was it because they agree with Labour policies (or, at least agree with Labour policies more than any other party standing)? Was it because they always vote Labour and aren't thinking about policies at all? Was it because Labour are in the strongest position to keep a Conservative (or, SNP etc, whatever the local "anyone but" is) candidate out? Why didn't the Y-X vote Labour? Was it because these are traditional Labour voters who object to the current Labour swing towards the right? Are they just supporters of other parties? Is Labour in that constituency not in a strong position to keep the Tory out?

    None of those questions can be answered. So, simply not voting Labour doesn't send a message. Writing to local Labour leadership, or even Starmer himself, saying why you're not voting Labour and what they can do to regain your vote does send a message, very clearly. If you're a Labour member, leaving the party sends a message but leaving with a letter to the leadership saying why you're leaving sends a clearer message. If you want to send a message that's heard and understood you need to write it down and send it to the people you need to hear it.

    [Incidentally, the "message" from ballot boxes is equally unclear in other situations - how do we know that Tory support in a London by-election really had anything to do with low emission zones and environmental policy? We don't, but that didn't stop Sunak spinning it that way - which presumably annoys anyone who voted Tory in that by-election but wants stronger environmental regulation, and was voting Tory for other reasons.]
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    edited March 2024
    If you're a Labour member, leaving the party sends a message

    They've made it clear on numerous occasions that they are quite comfortable with large numbers of people leaving; from Reeves comments about shedding unwelcome supporters, to the senior Labour source who described councillors leaving the party over the stance on Gaza as 'shaking off fleas'.
  • I don't think that is true.

    Which bit do you think isn't true?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    "Sending a mesaage" is how we got brexit. I think using words to articulate a message is likely to be more useful - if every Labour Party member wrote to the party with a bullet point list of their concerns it would be more functional.

    No it wouldn't, because the current leadership don't give a runny shit what the members think until and unless it affects their ability to hold onto power. The ballot box is the only message they understand.
    I don't think that is true.

    Which bit do you think isn't true?

    All of it.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    What evidence do you have that the current Labour leadership care what members think?

    I think if there is a large uptick in people voting for parties to the left of Labour it will send a clear signal to the Labour leadership that they've gone too far. Yes it will likely emphasise that message if people write to explain their actions as well, but the only way the current Labour leadership will change course is if it is more electorally advantageous to move to the left. That means they need to feel at risk of losing votes there. At the moment Starmer is free to tack hard right, as Blair did before him, safe in the knowledge that GTTO will see him into power.
  • I'm in a Labour marginal. If anyone is suggesting that I vote for a minor party, welcome to dreamland.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    edited March 2024
    I don't think that is true.

    Well, then you have to square your beliefs with their words and actions (see above).
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    I'm in a Labour marginal. If anyone is suggesting that I vote for a minor party, welcome to dreamland.

    Voting tactically is a reasonable choice on the face of it, in a one-off situation. The problem is that elections, while infrequent, are not one-off. They're like a series of rounds of Prisoner's Dilemma (though with marginally better information), with the right of the Labour party stuck in "always defect" because the left is too scared (not without reason) of the "both defect" outcome to depart from its "always generous" strategy. Until the left is willing to deploy a bit of game theory, and work on a generous tit-for-tat strategy or similar things are just going to keep drifting to the right, no matter the colour of the rosette.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    edited March 2024
    As @Alan Cresswell says often, Democracy is not voting every few years. It's so much more than that.
    Hugal wrote: »
    As always, the Left eats itself and lets the perfect be the enemy of the good. We can never win that way.

    Is Labour as Left as I would like? No. But is it a right wing party? Not remotely. To come to that conclusion, you have to believe the headlines and the superficial analysis of the poorer parts of our media.

    Go find some serious analysis; like this:
    https://twitter.com/ianmulheirn/status/1770150408897347655?t=mDHsjzFd6XfhWl1_NjxkSQ&s=19

    Should we hold feet to fire? Of course. Should we push Left? Absolutely. But this is a purgatory conversation, at least let Starmer become PM before the Hell call....

    Whilst Labour talks to the centre, look at what they actually do.

    :eyeroll:

    AFZ

    It is not Purg for me. I am ranting. I am looking at what they are doing and they are promising all sorts of things and changing it when it doesn’t look right. Pledge after pleadge out of the window.
    I am not calling Starmer to Hell. I am have started a Hell thread on Labour because IMHO they cannot be trusted to do what they promised. They are being lead by a man who broke pledges when it was convenient. The leadership has taken that on board. The two child benefit cap will put millions of kids in poverty or further into poverty. Just because I don’t often swear doesn’t mean I am not ranting.

    I mean, bloody hell, they haven't even published the manifesto yet...

    At this stage what they are saying is likely to be in their manifesto. At least some of it. Unless they decide to change again. Supporters of this move to the right say you win elections from the centre. Moving right attracts voters. OK I see that. But there are things that Labour stand for.
    They go contra to this leadership.

    Ok let’s look at something. The right of the party complained like hell that Momentum where pushing the party left. Corbyn did not get rid of MPs from that side of the party. Starmer has gotten rid of left leaners. They are worse than Corbyn in that sense.
  • If anyone here votes in such a way as to let the tories back in, this Old Man's Curse will be upon you.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    I think Owen Jones was saying vote for other parties. The Tories will be loving that, as Spike said.

    If you listen to what he says you are not quite right. He accepts that Labour will win. It is a bit complicated but he is basically wanting people to send a message to Labour.

    Well, I could vote Tory, that would really send a message.

    One could always vote Green. There are a number of constituencies - Bristol West springs to mind - where this is a feasible alternative.

    My constituency. It wil be renamed "Bristol Central" and lose about a third of its electorate. Most of the City Councillors in the new constituency are Green Party.
  • So the OP is basically equating Tories and Labour, the difference is the colour of the rosette. So a Badenoch premiership is the same as a Starmer one? This reminds me of 1930s Germany where ultra leftists argued that there was no difference between Social Democrats and the hard right. It strikes me as madness.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    So the OP is basically equating Tories and Labour, the difference is the colour of the rosette. So a Badenoch premiership is the same as a Starmer one? This reminds me of 1930s Germany where ultra leftists argued that there was no difference between Social Democrats and the hard right. It strikes me as madness.
    No I didn’t say that. I was saying they share a lot policies now that they didn’t before. I think you know that I didn’t mean they were exactly the same.
  • You said the difference is the colour of the rosette.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    You said the difference is the colour of the rosette.

    OK but I think my point still stands. It was meant to be representational.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    You said the difference is the colour of the rosette.

    OK but I think my point still stands. It was meant to be representational.

    Meaning?
  • So a Badenoch premiership is the same as a Starmer one?

    I wasn't aware that those were the available choices.
  • Well, fortunately, they're not (at the moment, anyway).

    Whatever faults and failings a Labour government might have, surely it couldn't be worse than the present gaggle of gobshites?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    So the OP is basically equating Tories and Labour, the difference is the colour of the rosette. So a Badenoch premiership is the same as a Starmer one? This reminds me of 1930s Germany where ultra leftists argued that there was no difference between Social Democrats and the hard right. It strikes me as madness.

    A Badenoch premiership isn't on the cards. It's not clear there would be a substantial difference between a Starmer ministry and a Mordaunt one.

    As for 1930s, Starmer would throw the SPD out the party were he in charge.
  • So the OP is basically equating Tories and Labour, the difference is the colour of the rosette. So a Badenoch premiership is the same as a Starmer one? This reminds me of 1930s Germany where ultra leftists argued that there was no difference between Social Democrats and the hard right. It strikes me as madness.

    A Badenoch premiership isn't on the cards. It's not clear there would be a substantial difference between a Starmer ministry and a Mordaunt one.

    As for 1930s, Starmer would throw the SPD out the party were he in charge.

    So what's your recommendation? Vote Green?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    So the OP is basically equating Tories and Labour, the difference is the colour of the rosette. So a Badenoch premiership is the same as a Starmer one? This reminds me of 1930s Germany where ultra leftists argued that there was no difference between Social Democrats and the hard right. It strikes me as madness.

    A Badenoch premiership isn't on the cards. It's not clear there would be a substantial difference between a Starmer ministry and a Mordaunt one.

    As for 1930s, Starmer would throw the SPD out the party were he in charge.

    So what's your recommendation? Vote Green?

    I think it has to depend on the constituency and the candidates. I'll likely vote SNP (pretty easy choice here) but I think anywhere that's currently Labour held in England I'd be looking at voting Green (barring a handful of remaining decent MPs, Sultana for one), and probably the same anywhere with a 5k or less tory majority. Anything above that I'd say GTTO comes first, even at the expense of electing a lib dem. In Wales I'd go Plaid or Green in Labour seats, GTTO in tory ones.
  • So you're confident that the polls won't narrow?
  • So you're confident that the polls won't narrow?

    I don't think they will unless the papers decide to subject Starmer to some scrutiny, what we are seeing at the moment is the result of Tory support collapsing.
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    edited March 2024
    I really don't know what the answer here. Starmer seems to be incapable of authenticity, and to be determined to say whatever the Daily Mail wants him to say. This makes enthusiasm about Labour impossible. There is also no guarantee that his opposition to any tory policy is meaningful. This is why I am wondering what political position I can support with any enthusiasm.

    None of this changes the fact that the thought of a further Tory government is appalling and almost literally unthinkable.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    So you're confident that the polls won't narrow?

    Like the polls I'm going on "if the election were held today..." I can only speak to the current situation, not one where the facts have presumably changed as well as the polls.
  • So you're confident that the polls won't narrow?

    I don't think they will unless the papers decide to subject Starmer to some scrutiny, what we are seeing at the moment is the result of Tory support collapsing.

    Ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha.
  • So you're confident that the polls won't narrow?

    I don't think they will unless the papers decide to subject Starmer to some scrutiny, what we are seeing at the moment is the result of Tory support collapsing.

    Ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha.

    You are welcome to laugh, but I stand by that. Just remember that in 2021 Starmer was seen less favourably than Johnson and there were a good few months where even otherwise friendly commentators were putting the boot in and his MPs were making rumbling noises.

    Since then, what's changed? Starmer remains unpopular. Fortunately press coverage is gentle, sometimes fawningly so, and Reeves isn't an awful lot better.
  • It's impossible not to laugh at the idea that Starmer personally or the Labour party in general get gentle press coverage.

    If you watch BBC interviews - especially the Laura K show - Starmer himself and every shaddow minister is grilled and constantly critiqued whilst ministers are given softball questions.

    The Mail wrote front page after front page on Beergate whilst trying to pretend that Johnson was ambushed by cake.

    I could go on and on. What you are saying is that you don't like Starmer, personally. Fine. But the idea that he's not been scrutinised is just ridiculous.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    edited March 2024
    It's impossible not to laugh at the idea that Starmer personally or the Labour party in general get gentle press coverage.

    Everything is relative, this https://youtu.be/GGijw3wY4Ss?t=2404 or this are hardly the press parked outside your front door every time tomorrowsmps digs something up.

  • If it's a matter of GTTO in certain seats then Labour and the Lib Dems should cooperate.

    I've seen some - but not enough - examples of that but also examples on both sides where mutual suspicion has scuppered things.

    I'm no Starmer fan and have a lot of time for individual Greens but FWIW looking at it from the outside and as - despite what some of you say - from the position of a 'critical friend' - I hope Labourites don't go Green and split the opposition vote.

    I don't say that because the Lib Dems and the Greens are fierce rivals for the position of third place, but because I generally think Labour is more effective than the Greens in terms of how things run.

    It grieves me to see Labour do u-turns on stated environmental policies and much else besides.

    Anyhow, jeepers-creepers, the latest polls round here show Reform in third place in our three nearest Parliamentary constituencies. But also Labour in with a chance for the first time in one of them.

    I'd hate to see that chance diminished by Labour defections.

    But what do I know? I am an heretick and not a True BelieverTM.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    The result of the election will probably be closer than the polls say now. Some of the don’t knows will vote Tory. Some will say they won’t vote Tory but when it comes to placing that cross they will. Labour are in track to win big.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    The result of the election will probably be closer than the polls say now. Some of the don’t knows will vote Tory. Some will say they won’t vote Tory but when it comes to placing that cross they will. Labour are in track to win big.

    It is received wisdom that the polls will narrow. I do not agree, I actually think they will widen. Labour need about a 7% advantage to get a working majority so even if they do narrow a lot and there's a fairly standard polling error, Labour will still win.*

    AFZ

    *I won't be properly relaxed until the votes are counted, however. I remember '92.

  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Labour are exactly where they need to be to win a majority and they will win it by default.
    However, if they do move to the left it will cost them seats.
  • agingjbagingjb Shipmate
    I live in a constituency which is a Tory Lib Dem marginal. I shall vote Lib Dem.

    I have always regretted that Labour are so implacably opposed to electoral reform, but that is the way it is.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    agingjb wrote: »
    I live in a constituency which is a Tory Lib Dem marginal. I shall vote Lib Dem.

    I have always regretted that Labour are so implacably opposed to electoral reform, but that is the way it is.

    No major party will ever want to share power.

  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host

    I'd hate to see that chance diminished by Labour defections.

    You mis-spelled "the consequences of Labour's actions".
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