The UK Labour Party
As it seems inevitable that the current Labour Party will form the next government here in the UK, I thought it would be good to start a thread. The push to the right has got a decent amount of Labour supporters, including me thinking of putting their vote somewhere else. Big name supporters such as Owen Jones are leaving the party.
What difference is there between Labour and Conservative. As far as I can see the colour of the rosette. Austerity policies, the two child benefit cap, the flip flopping of policy, and throwing out if left leaning MPs has made me all but give up on them. They are even getting rid of the North East mayor who has done wonders for the area but is left leaning. Take the red rosette of Starmer you are destroying Labour.
What difference is there between Labour and Conservative. As far as I can see the colour of the rosette. Austerity policies, the two child benefit cap, the flip flopping of policy, and throwing out if left leaning MPs has made me all but give up on them. They are even getting rid of the North East mayor who has done wonders for the area but is left leaning. Take the red rosette of Starmer you are destroying Labour.
Comments
Is Labour as Left as I would like? No. But is it a right wing party? Not remotely. To come to that conclusion, you have to believe the headlines and the superficial analysis of the poorer parts of our media.
Go find some serious analysis; like this:
https://twitter.com/ianmulheirn/status/1770150408897347655?t=mDHsjzFd6XfhWl1_NjxkSQ&s=19
Should we hold feet to fire? Of course. Should we push Left? Absolutely. But this is a purgatory conversation, at least let Starmer become PM before the Hell call....
Whilst Labour talks to the centre, look at what they actually do.
:eyeroll:
AFZ
If you listen to what he says you are not quite right. He accepts that Labour will win. It is a bit complicated but he is basically wanting people to send a message to Labour.
It is not Purg for me. I am ranting. I am looking at what they are doing and they are promising all sorts of things and changing it when it doesn’t look right. Pledge after pleadge out of the window.
I am not calling Starmer to Hell. I am have started a Hell thread on Labour because IMHO they cannot be trusted to do what they promised. They are being lead by a man who broke pledges when it was convenient. The leadership has taken that on board. The two child benefit cap will put millions of kids in poverty or further into poverty. Just because I don’t often swear doesn’t mean I am not ranting.
At this point the Tory vote has collapsed; those doing the waggy finger act can feel free to show the rest of us what they are doing to push Labour to the left.
How do you propose to do that once they are ensconced in power with a - projected - large majority, especially given that they've been running their selections in such a way as to minimize internal dissent.
And questions have been raised about the degree to which the electronic balloting for those selections has been free and fair, given large disparities between in-person and electronic voting, lack of oversight of the online process, and it being run by Labour regional offices rather than anyone independent. There isn't a smoking gun pointing directly to vote rigging or tampering but there are certainly unanswered questions.
Well, I could vote Tory, that would really send a message.
I mean, bloody hell, they haven't even published the manifesto yet...
One could always vote Green. There are a number of constituencies - Bristol West springs to mind - where this is a feasible alternative.
No it wouldn't, because the current leadership don't give a runny shit what the members think until and unless it affects their ability to hold onto power. The ballot box is the only message they understand.
None of those questions can be answered. So, simply not voting Labour doesn't send a message. Writing to local Labour leadership, or even Starmer himself, saying why you're not voting Labour and what they can do to regain your vote does send a message, very clearly. If you're a Labour member, leaving the party sends a message but leaving with a letter to the leadership saying why you're leaving sends a clearer message. If you want to send a message that's heard and understood you need to write it down and send it to the people you need to hear it.
[Incidentally, the "message" from ballot boxes is equally unclear in other situations - how do we know that Tory support in a London by-election really had anything to do with low emission zones and environmental policy? We don't, but that didn't stop Sunak spinning it that way - which presumably annoys anyone who voted Tory in that by-election but wants stronger environmental regulation, and was voting Tory for other reasons.]
They've made it clear on numerous occasions that they are quite comfortable with large numbers of people leaving; from Reeves comments about shedding unwelcome supporters, to the senior Labour source who described councillors leaving the party over the stance on Gaza as 'shaking off fleas'.
Which bit do you think isn't true?
All of it.
I think if there is a large uptick in people voting for parties to the left of Labour it will send a clear signal to the Labour leadership that they've gone too far. Yes it will likely emphasise that message if people write to explain their actions as well, but the only way the current Labour leadership will change course is if it is more electorally advantageous to move to the left. That means they need to feel at risk of losing votes there. At the moment Starmer is free to tack hard right, as Blair did before him, safe in the knowledge that GTTO will see him into power.
Well, then you have to square your beliefs with their words and actions (see above).
Voting tactically is a reasonable choice on the face of it, in a one-off situation. The problem is that elections, while infrequent, are not one-off. They're like a series of rounds of Prisoner's Dilemma (though with marginally better information), with the right of the Labour party stuck in "always defect" because the left is too scared (not without reason) of the "both defect" outcome to depart from its "always generous" strategy. Until the left is willing to deploy a bit of game theory, and work on a generous tit-for-tat strategy or similar things are just going to keep drifting to the right, no matter the colour of the rosette.
At this stage what they are saying is likely to be in their manifesto. At least some of it. Unless they decide to change again. Supporters of this move to the right say you win elections from the centre. Moving right attracts voters. OK I see that. But there are things that Labour stand for.
They go contra to this leadership.
Ok let’s look at something. The right of the party complained like hell that Momentum where pushing the party left. Corbyn did not get rid of MPs from that side of the party. Starmer has gotten rid of left leaners. They are worse than Corbyn in that sense.
My constituency. It wil be renamed "Bristol Central" and lose about a third of its electorate. Most of the City Councillors in the new constituency are Green Party.
OK but I think my point still stands. It was meant to be representational.
Meaning?
I wasn't aware that those were the available choices.
Whatever faults and failings a Labour government might have, surely it couldn't be worse than the present gaggle of gobshites?
A Badenoch premiership isn't on the cards. It's not clear there would be a substantial difference between a Starmer ministry and a Mordaunt one.
As for 1930s, Starmer would throw the SPD out the party were he in charge.
So what's your recommendation? Vote Green?
I think it has to depend on the constituency and the candidates. I'll likely vote SNP (pretty easy choice here) but I think anywhere that's currently Labour held in England I'd be looking at voting Green (barring a handful of remaining decent MPs, Sultana for one), and probably the same anywhere with a 5k or less tory majority. Anything above that I'd say GTTO comes first, even at the expense of electing a lib dem. In Wales I'd go Plaid or Green in Labour seats, GTTO in tory ones.
I don't think they will unless the papers decide to subject Starmer to some scrutiny, what we are seeing at the moment is the result of Tory support collapsing.
None of this changes the fact that the thought of a further Tory government is appalling and almost literally unthinkable.
Like the polls I'm going on "if the election were held today..." I can only speak to the current situation, not one where the facts have presumably changed as well as the polls.
Ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha.
You are welcome to laugh, but I stand by that. Just remember that in 2021 Starmer was seen less favourably than Johnson and there were a good few months where even otherwise friendly commentators were putting the boot in and his MPs were making rumbling noises.
Since then, what's changed? Starmer remains unpopular. Fortunately press coverage is gentle, sometimes fawningly so, and Reeves isn't an awful lot better.
If you watch BBC interviews - especially the Laura K show - Starmer himself and every shaddow minister is grilled and constantly critiqued whilst ministers are given softball questions.
The Mail wrote front page after front page on Beergate whilst trying to pretend that Johnson was ambushed by cake.
I could go on and on. What you are saying is that you don't like Starmer, personally. Fine. But the idea that he's not been scrutinised is just ridiculous.
Everything is relative, this https://youtu.be/GGijw3wY4Ss?t=2404 or this are hardly the press parked outside your front door every time tomorrowsmps digs something up.
I've seen some - but not enough - examples of that but also examples on both sides where mutual suspicion has scuppered things.
I'm no Starmer fan and have a lot of time for individual Greens but FWIW looking at it from the outside and as - despite what some of you say - from the position of a 'critical friend' - I hope Labourites don't go Green and split the opposition vote.
I don't say that because the Lib Dems and the Greens are fierce rivals for the position of third place, but because I generally think Labour is more effective than the Greens in terms of how things run.
It grieves me to see Labour do u-turns on stated environmental policies and much else besides.
Anyhow, jeepers-creepers, the latest polls round here show Reform in third place in our three nearest Parliamentary constituencies. But also Labour in with a chance for the first time in one of them.
I'd hate to see that chance diminished by Labour defections.
But what do I know? I am an heretick and not a True BelieverTM.
It is received wisdom that the polls will narrow. I do not agree, I actually think they will widen. Labour need about a 7% advantage to get a working majority so even if they do narrow a lot and there's a fairly standard polling error, Labour will still win.*
AFZ
*I won't be properly relaxed until the votes are counted, however. I remember '92.
However, if they do move to the left it will cost them seats.
I have always regretted that Labour are so implacably opposed to electoral reform, but that is the way it is.
No major party will ever want to share power.
You mis-spelled "the consequences of Labour's actions".