Little story about JAO Preus, the former president of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, and David Preus, the former president of the old American Lutheran Church. They were both cousins. Whenever the family got together for reunions, their mothers would have to keep them apart, and religion was not a topic of conversation during the reunion.
Also Rowan Williams ten years ago when he gave the Julian Lecture here in the fine city (a gig he is repeating next Saturday in the cathedral).. Last time he led a discussion afterwards in which he introduced me to the phrase "terms and conditions Christianity" which encapsulates everything wrong with the view of faith as an insurance policy against God. Wonder what he will plant this time.
In either case it's a sure sign that the opposite is true.
On a more positive note, I'm an unashamed Rowan Williams fan. He has his faults of course, as do we all but I've seen examples of his humility first-hand. The guy's the real deal as far as I'm concerned.
I have been in the presence of each of the last four or five Presidents of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada, but then I would be, because it's a small world. Most recently I passed the current one on the stairs at church when he was visiting our area, and we said a pleasant hello to each other, both well aware that a Strongly Worded Letter of Concern from myself and my husband, regarding a local church governance issue, had been sitting in his inbox since the night before.
On a more positive note, I'm an unashamed Rowan Williams fan. He has his faults of course, as do we all but I've seen examples of his humility first-hand.
Indeed, both he and his wife are wonderful people of very deep faith.
Whoever was Anglican bishop of Oxford in about 1992, at my sister's baptism and confirmation. (Yes, same service for both; and she was roughly 17 at the time). Don't recall actually speaking to the man, I was somewhat knackered from getting back from university in time to get to the service!
Whoever was Anglican bishop of Oxford in about 1992, at my sister's baptism and confirmation. (Yes, same service for both; and she was roughly 17 at the time). Don't recall actually speaking to the man, I was somewhat knackered from getting back from university in time to get to the service!
Probably +Richard Harries, who was Bishop of Oxford 1987-2006.
Whoever was Anglican bishop of Oxford in about 1992, at my sister's baptism and confirmation. (Yes, same service for both; and she was roughly 17 at the time). Don't recall actually speaking to the man, I was somewhat knackered from getting back from university in time to get to the service!
Probably +Richard Harries, who was Bishop of Oxford 1987-2006.
...and, I think, the father-in-law of one of our regular Sunday ringers.
would hardly be appropriate even for the least significant of those numbered among the 'promoted to glory' yet alone those whose intercessions there are commended for the rest of us down here? 🤨😬😜
Hmm... various Bishops. Might have been in the presence of George Carey when he was Bishop of Bath & Wells, certainly the next two holders of that See. Had the Bishop of Argyll & The Isles around for dinner one time. Not sure if the SEC Primus was at the Gaelic Eucharist I attended a few years back.
Orthodox: the current Patriarch of Constantinople (several times, variously in London, Manchester, and Oxford)
Roman Catholic: Cardinal Basil Hume (I got invited to an Ecumenicla Jamboree in Westminster Cathedral and to a reception afterwards in the Archbishop's residence)
Anglican: Rowan Williams (before, while, and after he was Archbishop of Canterbury; the "before" included acting alongside him in a sketch at an end-of-conference entertainment)
would hardly be appropriate even for the least significant of those numbered among the 'promoted to glory' yet alone those whose intercessions there are commended for the rest of us down here? 🤨😬😜
Really?
Not that I hold any brief for clergy as a species…will make exceptions.
There have been plenty of dodgy canonisations in my natal club: a special talent of the late “ Santo subito” JP2
Archbishop Desmond Tutu and several Episcopal Presiding Bishops. Not the highest ranking but glad I was able to speak with Bishop Barbara Harris and know The Rev. Jackie Means the first female ordained priest in the Episcopal church by regular order.
We have had a couple of our local Diocesan bishops as speakers at Parish house parties, but that's about it from my end.
Even though I think upthread she was mentioned as not counting, I do recall our whole school being taken to see Mother Theresa as she was doing a visit with her Order of Nuns in the tiny town in which we were living. I do remember being astonished at her being quite a small woman. I don't know why this sticks in my mind!
Rowan Williams spoke at our leavers service at Theological College - before he was ABC. When he was ABC, he came to a diocesan clergy day but only stayed for half of it, as that was the day of the London bombings and he had to return to London.I
In Canada, I was pretty good friend with my diocesan bishop, as I was the only one he could talk to about football - especially Rangers.
It is my delight that a very good friend has recently become a diocesan bushop (again in Canada).
My pastor. That's as high as an independent Baptist can recognize anyway. We are not into this type of heirarchy.
Well, the question in the OP doesn’t require that the leaders in whose presence you’ve been be leaders in your own denomination/tradition.
I understand that. I am resisting the concept of any "higher ranks" or the legitimacy of them beyond whatever legitimacy people choose to give them by agreeing they have it. Which I don't.
My pastor. That's as high as an independent Baptist can recognize anyway. We are not into this type of heirarchy.
Pastors can be 'Popes' in their own congregations. I've met some supposedly non-heirarchical church leaders who are anything but.
And they should be voted out by their congregation or should be left with a congregation of their microfanbase.
I think this has been called "starving the beast" i a different context.
I understand that. I am resisting the concept of any "higher ranks" or the legitimacy of them beyond whatever legitimacy people choose to give them by agreeing they have it. Which I don't.
I get that, I’m a Quaker, we don’t have clergy on the grounds of the priesthood of all believers making it redundant - but this seems to me like a lighthearted collectors thread, not one making theological assertions on the basis of who is included. Rather as if someone asked who is the most famous person you’ve met.
I've been in the same space as Rowan Williams several times (book launch, lecture, he was invited to the cathedral book group to talk about his book, he turned up at our church once but I think after he stepped down as AbC) and embarrassed myself thinking of something to say to him.
I've been in the same space as Desmond Tutu, but not as close as a friend of mine who turned round at a service to share the peace and found him in the pew behind.
My uncle once lent Desmond Tutu his bed to sleep in.
I now recall being at a rededication service at St Matthew's, Westminster, in 1984 (on completion of rebuilding after the fire in 1977), with Cardinal Hume in attendance.
IIRC, Westminster Cathedral had graciously allowed the Anglicans of St Matthew's to hold services in the Cathedral crypt whilst their church was out of action.
I remember meeting Cardinal Hume at some kind of ecumenical gathering, in Harrow IIRC. I’ve also worked with a former Bishop of Karamoja, and a former Archbishop of Central Africa, and hosted a church event for a Bishop of St. Helena. I was also able to arrange a joyous reunion for Archbishop John Sentamu (and his wife, Margaret) with a former teacher of theirs from their time at Makerere University.
ETA I also hosted Archbishop David Hope at an opening event for a social housing project. He had been my ordaining bishop in London.
This all ends up sounding very pretentious, but they’re all just people and more or less chance encounters, not something I’ve sought out, or thought much about until this thread.
Well, @Kendel, generally speaking, seeing as in theory at least, even in highly hierarchical and sacramental settings, incumbents are meant only to 'incumb' (new verb) with the consent of the people, it pretty much follows that tacit agreement is at least required - even in churches which don't have a congregational polity.
As @Doublethink has indicated, this is a light-hearted thread and it's not as if those of who aren't Quakers or independent Baptists have got nasty bishops treading all over us all the time.
I've attended Baptist churches in the past and was very happily a member of one for 6 years. It was Baptist Union of GB and Ireland.
My experience from visiting independent Baptist congregations here in the UK is that their pastors are far more one-man-band types than anything I've seen in the Baptist Union. I remember one Reformed Baptist minister who more of a Pope in his own congregation than the Bishop of Rome who 'hath no jurisdiction in this realm of England."
Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of time for the 'church meeting' polity of the Baptists and 'the priesthood of all believers.' Strange as it may sound, I still hold to that even now I'm Orthodox, but in a different kind of way.
I've often surprised other Shipmates by saying I have a soft spot for the Quakers too, even though they aren't avowedly Trinitarian (although individuals might be) and are liturgically minimalist whereas we are messy maximalists.
There are echoes there of Byzantine 'hesychasm', I think - even if they are coming at it independently and from a different direction.
I always enjoy interacting with Quakers even if they think I'm some kind of unreconstructed priest-ridden old fogey.
My pastor. That's as high as an independent Baptist can recognize anyway. We are not into this type of heirarchy.
Well, the question in the OP doesn’t require that the leaders in whose presence you’ve been be leaders in your own denomination/tradition.
I understand that. I am resisting the concept of any "higher ranks" or the legitimacy of them beyond whatever legitimacy people choose to give them by agreeing they have it. Which I don't.
Also met George Carey as Archbishop of Canterbury more than once: not too surprisingly for a former resident of the Diocese. Definitely remember him doing a weekend visit to our parish, and meeting him at an Easter Monday youth pilgrimage. (IIRC that was the year the pulpit got invaded during the Easter sermon.)
John Sentamu was the speaker at my daughter's graduation ceremony when he was Archbishop of York.
I've had dinner with Olivia Graham, the Bishop of Reading (I was partnering the Mayor of Wokingham to the event).
I've heard Lynn Green - General Secretary of the BUGB preach a couple of times.
Archbishops Robert Runcie and George Carey at events organised at our old chaplaincy many many years ago. Still occasionally bump into the latter as lives nearby.
And my oft-quoted name drop is having met the late David Jenkins (before he was ‘late’ of course) visiting same chaplaincy.
We've had three moderators of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in Canada at our dining table at different times. On one occasion we invited a mutual friend, and the day ended with my beer supply being dried out. In the PCC the distance between the top and the bottom is quite small.
In my previous city I used to attend an annual lecture, financed by a bequest, which attracted notable speakers, including eg Rabbi Lionel Blue, John Bell, Archbishop John Habgood, Terry Waite, Archbishop John Sentamu and many more.
In my younger days Maurice Wood, later Bishop of Norwich, John Taylor, later Bishop of St Albans, George Carey, later ABC, and John Simpson, later Dean of Canterbury, all from Oak Hill College at that time, led or preached at services I attended.
The then Bishop of Lagos gave the blessing at my (first ) wedding.
In recent years, probably the President of the Methodist Conference is perhaps the highest rank.
Comments
Pastors can be 'Popes' in their own congregations. I've met some supposedly non-heirarchical church leaders who are anything but.
The phrase "we are not hierarchical" gives me shivers...
In either case it's a sure sign that the opposite is true.
On a more positive note, I'm an unashamed Rowan Williams fan. He has his faults of course, as do we all but I've seen examples of his humility first-hand. The guy's the real deal as far as I'm concerned.
Indeed, both he and his wife are wonderful people of very deep faith.
Probably +Richard Harries, who was Bishop of Oxford 1987-2006.
...and, I think, the father-in-law of one of our regular Sunday ringers.
And @Sojourner, surely, your self correction from to would hardly be appropriate even for the least significant of those numbered among the 'promoted to glory' yet alone those whose intercessions there are commended for the rest of us down here? 🤨😬😜
Roman Catholic: Cardinal Basil Hume (I got invited to an Ecumenicla Jamboree in Westminster Cathedral and to a reception afterwards in the Archbishop's residence)
Anglican: Rowan Williams (before, while, and after he was Archbishop of Canterbury; the "before" included acting alongside him in a sketch at an end-of-conference entertainment)
Really?
Not that I hold any brief for clergy as a species…will make exceptions.
There have been plenty of dodgy canonisations in my natal club: a special talent of the late “ Santo subito” JP2
Not just a very excited archbishop, but even rarer - a very great man.
(ETA coding, DT, Passing Crew)
Even though I think upthread she was mentioned as not counting, I do recall our whole school being taken to see Mother Theresa as she was doing a visit with her Order of Nuns in the tiny town in which we were living. I do remember being astonished at her being quite a small woman. I don't know why this sticks in my mind!
In Canada, I was pretty good friend with my diocesan bishop, as I was the only one he could talk to about football - especially Rangers.
It is my delight that a very good friend has recently become a diocesan bushop (again in Canada).
I understand that. I am resisting the concept of any "higher ranks" or the legitimacy of them beyond whatever legitimacy people choose to give them by agreeing they have it. Which I don't.
And they should be voted out by their congregation or should be left with a congregation of their microfanbase.
I think this has been called "starving the beast" i a different context.
Two successive Scottish Episcopal Primi (Primus' ?)
And lots of Bishops at various points, English & Scottish.
I mystery worshipped one of the Archbishops.
I get that, I’m a Quaker, we don’t have clergy on the grounds of the priesthood of all believers making it redundant - but this seems to me like a lighthearted collectors thread, not one making theological assertions on the basis of who is included. Rather as if someone asked who is the most famous person you’ve met.
I've been in the same space as Desmond Tutu, but not as close as a friend of mine who turned round at a service to share the peace and found him in the pew behind.
My uncle once lent Desmond Tutu his bed to sleep in.
I now recall being at a rededication service at St Matthew's, Westminster, in 1984 (on completion of rebuilding after the fire in 1977), with Cardinal Hume in attendance.
IIRC, Westminster Cathedral had graciously allowed the Anglicans of St Matthew's to hold services in the Cathedral crypt whilst their church was out of action.
ETA I also hosted Archbishop David Hope at an opening event for a social housing project. He had been my ordaining bishop in London.
This all ends up sounding very pretentious, but they’re all just people and more or less chance encounters, not something I’ve sought out, or thought much about until this thread.
As @Doublethink has indicated, this is a light-hearted thread and it's not as if those of who aren't Quakers or independent Baptists have got nasty bishops treading all over us all the time.
I've attended Baptist churches in the past and was very happily a member of one for 6 years. It was Baptist Union of GB and Ireland.
My experience from visiting independent Baptist congregations here in the UK is that their pastors are far more one-man-band types than anything I've seen in the Baptist Union. I remember one Reformed Baptist minister who more of a Pope in his own congregation than the Bishop of Rome who 'hath no jurisdiction in this realm of England."
Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of time for the 'church meeting' polity of the Baptists and 'the priesthood of all believers.' Strange as it may sound, I still hold to that even now I'm Orthodox, but in a different kind of way.
I've often surprised other Shipmates by saying I have a soft spot for the Quakers too, even though they aren't avowedly Trinitarian (although individuals might be) and are liturgically minimalist whereas we are messy maximalists.
There are echoes there of Byzantine 'hesychasm', I think - even if they are coming at it independently and from a different direction.
I always enjoy interacting with Quakers even if they think I'm some kind of unreconstructed priest-ridden old fogey.
Funnily enough *Saint*Anselm, no.
+Anselm Genders, yes.
I've had dinner with Olivia Graham, the Bishop of Reading (I was partnering the Mayor of Wokingham to the event).
I've heard Lynn Green - General Secretary of the BUGB preach a couple of times.
Details?
Gay Rights activists invade Archbishop's Easter sermon
And my oft-quoted name drop is having met the late David Jenkins (before he was ‘late’ of course) visiting same chaplaincy.
Yikes! Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ...
That would have been Robert Runcie.
In my younger days Maurice Wood, later Bishop of Norwich, John Taylor, later Bishop of St Albans, George Carey, later ABC, and John Simpson, later Dean of Canterbury, all from Oak Hill College at that time, led or preached at services I attended.
The then Bishop of Lagos gave the blessing at my (first ) wedding.
In recent years, probably the President of the Methodist Conference is perhaps the highest rank.