Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
You mean you think your trash-picking is mediocrity?
Inversely, I was introduced recently, in a discussion of the Heidelberg Catechism Question #8
8. Q. BUT ARE WE SO CORRUPT THAT WE ARE TOTALLY UNABLE TO DO ANY GOOD AND INCLINED TOWARD ALL EVIL?
A. Yes, unless we are born again, by the Spirit of God.
to the claim that nothing done by a non-christian can actually be good in the way things done by christians are. When I asked about my kid's Muslim brain surgeon, who saved her life, this idea was confirmed.
I didn't pursue other directions farther. I am always "asking too many questions." I think menopause must have killed some filters.
I'm not interested in arguing over my belief in God or your rational conclusion against it, @Martin54 . But I am grateful for every bit of good we have in the world, independent of how people understand the way it comes about.
Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
You mean you think your trash-picking is mediocrity?
Like the vast majority of human activity. Average. Normal. Nothing special. What do you think?
Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
You mean you think your trash-picking is mediocrity?
Like the vast majority of human activity. Average. Normal. Nothing special. What do you think?
Not sure. What activity would you consider to be non-mediocre, ie. extraordinary?
Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
You mean you think your trash-picking is mediocrity?
Like the vast majority of human activity. Average. Normal. Nothing special. What do you think?
Not sure. What activity would you consider to be non-mediocre, ie. extraordinary?
Something significantly good that Christians do significantly better than anyone else. Although they claim that non-Christians who are just as good, and better - see below - are because God facilitates that as well. My favourite example being the peerless Captain Mbaye Diagne.
Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
You mean you think your trash-picking is mediocrity?
Like the vast majority of human activity. Average. Normal. Nothing special. What do you think?
Not sure. What activity would you consider to be non-mediocre, ie. extraordinary?
Something significantly good that Christians do significantly better than anyone else. Although they claim that non-Christians who are just as good, and better - see below - are because God facilitates that as well. My favourite example being the peerless Captain Mbaye Diagne.
Are Christians the best litter pickers?
So your definition of non-mediocrity is "something Christian's do significantly better than anyone else"?
Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
You mean you think your trash-picking is mediocrity?
Like the vast majority of human activity. Average. Normal. Nothing special. What do you think?
Not sure. What activity would you consider to be non-mediocre, ie. extraordinary?
Something significantly good that Christians do significantly better than anyone else. Although they claim that non-Christians who are just as good, and better - see below - are because God facilitates that as well. My favourite example being the peerless Captain Mbaye Diagne.
Are Christians the best litter pickers?
So your definition of non-mediocrity is "something Christian's do significantly better than anyone else"?
No. What's yours? Christians arrogate all good for God.
Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
You mean you think your trash-picking is mediocrity?
Like the vast majority of human activity. Average. Normal. Nothing special. What do you think?
Not sure. What activity would you consider to be non-mediocre, ie. extraordinary?
Something significantly good that Christians do significantly better than anyone else. Although they claim that non-Christians who are just as good, and better - see below - are because God facilitates that as well. My favourite example being the peerless Captain Mbaye Diagne.
Are Christians the best litter pickers?
So your definition of non-mediocrity is "something Christian's do significantly better than anyone else"?
No. What's yours? Christians arrogate all good for God.
I sincerely ask for correction if I'm wrong, but I believe you are the one who raised the issue of mediocrity in the first place when you wrote...
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
So, it seems to me that you have a pretty clear idea of what sort of actions you consider mediocre, in this case, cleaning up litter. So, it would seem to me that, logically, you should have a concomitant idea of actions you consider extraordinary.
Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
You mean you think your trash-picking is mediocrity?
Like the vast majority of human activity. Average. Normal. Nothing special. What do you think?
Not sure. What activity would you consider to be non-mediocre, ie. extraordinary?
Something significantly good that Christians do significantly better than anyone else. Although they claim that non-Christians who are just as good, and better - see below - are because God facilitates that as well. My favourite example being the peerless Captain Mbaye Diagne.
Are Christians the best litter pickers?
So your definition of non-mediocrity is "something Christian's do significantly better than anyone else"?
No. What's yours? Christians arrogate all good for God.
I sincerely ask for correction if I'm wrong, but I believe you are the one who raised the issue of mediocrity in the first place when you wrote...
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
So, it seems to me that you have a pretty clear idea of what sort of actions you consider mediocre, in this case, cleaning up litter. So, it would seem to me that, logically, you should have a concomitant idea of actions you consider extraordinary.
Cool discussion on Milton, but yes, this is really about litter picking.
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
You mean you think your trash-picking is mediocrity?
Like the vast majority of human activity. Average. Normal. Nothing special. What do you think?
Not sure. What activity would you consider to be non-mediocre, ie. extraordinary?
Something significantly good that Christians do significantly better than anyone else. Although they claim that non-Christians who are just as good, and better - see below - are because God facilitates that as well. My favourite example being the peerless Captain Mbaye Diagne.
Are Christians the best litter pickers?
So your definition of non-mediocrity is "something Christian's do significantly better than anyone else"?
No. What's yours? Christians arrogate all good for God.
I sincerely ask for correction if I'm wrong, but I believe you are the one who raised the issue of mediocrity in the first place when you wrote...
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
So, it seems to me that you have a pretty clear idea of what sort of actions you consider mediocre, in this case, cleaning up litter. So, it would seem to me that, logically, you should have a concomitant idea of actions you consider extraordinary.
I gave the best example I know above.
An example of something extraordinary? What was it?
If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.
What, in your view, makes your street-cleaning mediocre, but Mbaye Diagne's life-saving extraordinary?
Statistics. Bivariate*. You might not see some old nutter with a grabber and bag every day, but he's not exactly walking unarmed up to rampaging killers butchering people with machetes and stopping them with raw courage and cigarettes.
Of course in the grand objective quantifiable scheme of things, Captain Diagne's four sigma courage is still normal, mediocre human behaviour. But that's not how it feels.
*x-axis, observations, counts of human behaviour, y-axis, a rating of eusociality.
If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.
Martin Luther King Jr
It's so grandiose isn't it? Allowable as poetry. But I sweep, pick the streets for me. And I'm judgemental about it.
What, in your view, makes your street-cleaning mediocre, but Mbaye Diagne's life-saving extraordinary?
Statistics. Bivariate*. You might not see some old nutter with a grabber and bag every day, but he's not exactly walking unarmed up to rampaging killers butchering people with machetes and stopping them with raw courage and cigarettes.
Okay. So the two aspects of Diagme's actions which distinguish him from the street-cleaner...
1. Bravery(he's challenging killers unarmed; he has "raw courage")
2. Saving lives(the guys he's stopping are "rampaging butchers killing people with machetes").
Which is fair enough, though we could also take into account that a huge chunk of humanity aren't in the vicinity of dangerous situations where lives are at stake, so it might be a little unfair to judge their actions as "mediocre" relative to Diagne's.
Furthermore, your original point was that we don't need the Holy Spirit to perform acts of goodness, which seems to me should apply equally to mediocre acts of goodness and extraordinary ones.
What, in your view, makes your street-cleaning mediocre, but Mbaye Diagne's life-saving extraordinary?
Statistics. Bivariate*. You might not see some old nutter with a grabber and bag every day, but he's not exactly walking unarmed up to rampaging killers butchering people with machetes and stopping them with raw courage and cigarettes.
Okay. So the two aspects of Diagme's actions which distinguish him from the street-cleaner...
1. Bravery(he's challenging killers unarmed; he has "raw courage")
2. Saving lives(the guys he's stopping are "rampaging butchers killing people with machetes").
Which is fair enough, though we could also take into account that a huge chunk of humanity aren't in the vicinity of dangerous situations where lives are at stake, so it might be a little unfair to judge their actions as "mediocre" relative to Diagne's.
Furthermore, your original point was that we don't need the Holy Spirit to perform acts of goodness, which seems to me should apply equally to mediocre acts of goodness and extraordinary ones.
A huge chunk of Christian, mediocre, representative humanity in Rwanda murdered an even huger million Christian chunk of other humans there, with hand tools, in a hundred days. All caused by American and French foreign policy. There was only one Captain Diagne. A Muslim.
And did they all die for the sake of being a rhetorical flourish ?
There was literally only one Captain Diagne - but how can you know possibly know the stories of all survivors and all victims of the genocide, how can you possibly know there were not thousands of example of courage that we will never hear of, because they also died along with those who witnessed their bravery ?
Yeah sure, in the tidal wave of natural horror people naturally do anything and everything. Diagne stepped down, or, rather, up, from his helpless privilege as a UN peacekeeper. Naturally.
What, in your view, makes your street-cleaning mediocre, but Mbaye Diagne's life-saving extraordinary?
Statistics. Bivariate*. You might not see some old nutter with a grabber and bag every day, but he's not exactly walking unarmed up to rampaging killers butchering people with machetes and stopping them with raw courage and cigarettes.
Okay. So the two aspects of Diagme's actions which distinguish him from the street-cleaner...
1. Bravery(he's challenging killers unarmed; he has "raw courage")
2. Saving lives(the guys he's stopping are "rampaging butchers killing people with machetes").
Which is fair enough, though we could also take into account that a huge chunk of humanity aren't in the vicinity of dangerous situations where lives are at stake, so it might be a little unfair to judge their actions as "mediocre" relative to Diagne's.
Furthermore, your original point was that we don't need the Holy Spirit to perform acts of goodness, which seems to me should apply equally to mediocre acts of goodness and extraordinary ones.
A huge chunk of Christian, mediocre, representative humanity in Rwanda murdered an even huger million Christian chunk of other humans there, with hand tools, in a hundred days. All caused by American and French foreign policy. There was only one Captain Diagne. A Muslim.
So, you're basically re-stating the Good Samaritan parable, but with Christians as the priests and a Muslim as the Samaritan.
Not bad, actually. But, I do, in that case, question the relevance of your anti-mediocrity statements. Because, again, the issue is whether an individual needs to be xtian in order to perform a good act, not whether any given good act, once established as good, should further be established as great before being being granted praise from xtians.
In other words...
Don't give the Holy Spirit credit for me helping you paint your fence, I did it because [whatever reason.]
...works just as well for your argument as...
Don't give the Holy Spirit credit for me jumping into the shark tank at OceanLand to rescue the toddler who had just fallen in, I did it because etc.
Not that I have any strong preferences between the two "genres", and to be honest, prob'ly prefer the stuff that sounds like it should be illustrated by Frank Frazetta.
@Martin54 do you actually know anyone who survived the Rwandan genocide? Because I do. A Christian and an excellent human being who survived a massacre by pretending to be dead. I find your example very offensive.
My friend survived an unthinkable massacre in which several members of his family were killed, forgave the perpetrators and built a new life in France as a happy, successful and well rounded human being. And yes, he would credit his Christianity with helping him to do all of the above. He is one of the most admirable people I know.
Your lumping him in with the "mediocre" is offensive in the extreme. Especially as I suspect you're only using this example as a way of scoring rhetorical points.
I'm using the term in all its meanings, but above all as normal, human, natural. As is Christianity. Obvious by its flaws. The principle of mediocrity is literally universal. And beyond. Nothing about your movingly remarkable friend is unnatural. The majority here are infected with belief dependent realism, virtually all to a fundamentalist degree. If you weren't, what would you find offensive about the fact that your natural friend and your natural regard for them is all 'just' that? Entirely natural. Why is that offensive? I can imagine unbelieving but sensitive, yearning yet still fallacious minds being offended by that. And doing the rhetorical point down of 'Especially as I suspect you're only using this example as a way of scoring rhetorical points'.
@Martin54 read the forum guidelines and follow them, see in particular the end of point 2. Re commandment 1, stop behaving jerkishly or you will receive another four weeks shoreleave.
Comments
Well, I thought it was more precisely about whether @Martin54 needs the Holy Spirit to inspire him to pick up garbage, which is basically an avatar of "Do we need God to be good?"
IOW it's actually garbage-picking that's the thread-drift, but I'm cool with that. It makes for a neat juxtaposition.
I'm insulted that my own barely enlightened self-interest isn't enough to explain why I pick up litter! It's so bizarre, to have to create a God to elevate it as supernaturally virtuous. Which Christians in particular are most guilty of, the elevation of mediocrity.
You mean you think your trash-picking is mediocrity?
to the claim that nothing done by a non-christian can actually be good in the way things done by christians are. When I asked about my kid's Muslim brain surgeon, who saved her life, this idea was confirmed.
I didn't pursue other directions farther. I am always "asking too many questions." I think menopause must have killed some filters.
I'm not interested in arguing over my belief in God or your rational conclusion against it, @Martin54 . But I am grateful for every bit of good we have in the world, independent of how people understand the way it comes about.
Like the vast majority of human activity. Average. Normal. Nothing special. What do you think?
Not sure. What activity would you consider to be non-mediocre, ie. extraordinary?
Something significantly good that Christians do significantly better than anyone else. Although they claim that non-Christians who are just as good, and better - see below - are because God facilitates that as well. My favourite example being the peerless Captain Mbaye Diagne.
Are Christians the best litter pickers?
So your definition of non-mediocrity is "something Christian's do significantly better than anyone else"?
I know I am, in the hall of mirrors, but in my core, and whenever people say, "Aren't you good!", I deny it. Is that false modesty too?
No. What's yours? Christians arrogate all good for God.
I sincerely ask for correction if I'm wrong, but I believe you are the one who raised the issue of mediocrity in the first place when you wrote...
So, it seems to me that you have a pretty clear idea of what sort of actions you consider mediocre, in this case, cleaning up litter. So, it would seem to me that, logically, you should have a concomitant idea of actions you consider extraordinary.
I gave the best example I know above.
An example of something extraordinary? What was it?
EDIT: Ah, the guy in Rwanda, okay.
So...
What, in your view, makes your street-cleaning mediocre, but Mbaye Diagne's life-saving extraordinary?
Martin Luther King Jr
Statistics. Bivariate*. You might not see some old nutter with a grabber and bag every day, but he's not exactly walking unarmed up to rampaging killers butchering people with machetes and stopping them with raw courage and cigarettes.
Of course in the grand objective quantifiable scheme of things, Captain Diagne's four sigma courage is still normal, mediocre human behaviour. But that's not how it feels.
*x-axis, observations, counts of human behaviour, y-axis, a rating of eusociality.
It's so grandiose isn't it? Allowable as poetry. But I sweep, pick the streets for me. And I'm judgemental about it.
Okay. So the two aspects of Diagme's actions which distinguish him from the street-cleaner...
1. Bravery(he's challenging killers unarmed; he has "raw courage")
2. Saving lives(the guys he's stopping are "rampaging butchers killing people with machetes").
Which is fair enough, though we could also take into account that a huge chunk of humanity aren't in the vicinity of dangerous situations where lives are at stake, so it might be a little unfair to judge their actions as "mediocre" relative to Diagne's.
Furthermore, your original point was that we don't need the Holy Spirit to perform acts of goodness, which seems to me should apply equally to mediocre acts of goodness and extraordinary ones.
A huge chunk of Christian, mediocre, representative humanity in Rwanda murdered an even huger million Christian chunk of other humans there, with hand tools, in a hundred days. All caused by American and French foreign policy. There was only one Captain Diagne. A Muslim.
There was literally only one Captain Diagne - but how can you know possibly know the stories of all survivors and all victims of the genocide, how can you possibly know there were not thousands of example of courage that we will never hear of, because they also died along with those who witnessed their bravery ?
So, you're basically re-stating the Good Samaritan parable, but with Christians as the priests and a Muslim as the Samaritan.
Not bad, actually. But, I do, in that case, question the relevance of your anti-mediocrity statements. Because, again, the issue is whether an individual needs to be xtian in order to perform a good act, not whether any given good act, once established as good, should further be established as great before being being granted praise from xtians.
In other words...
...works just as well for your argument as...
Not that I have any strong preferences between the two "genres", and to be honest, prob'ly prefer the stuff that sounds like it should be illustrated by Frank Frazetta.
Your lumping him in with the "mediocre" is offensive in the extreme. Especially as I suspect you're only using this example as a way of scoring rhetorical points.
@Martin54 read the forum guidelines and follow them, see in particular the end of point 2. Re commandment 1, stop behaving jerkishly or you will receive another four weeks shoreleave.
Doublethink, Admin
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