The Cold War is back, but Communism's gone.

So the spectrum is from democratic capitalism - Norway - to non-democratic - North Korea. There is no idealism at all on it. Social justice is dead in the West, there is no political progress toward it at all. The only realistic hope for any nation with a population over 10 million is trickle down economic growth. This looks like this century's new normal. Thoughts?
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Comments

  • 'Put not your trust in princes' ... or, I might add 'democratic idealism' , 'social justice' or 'economic growth' (which is killing the planet). As Private Frazer would put it, "We're doomed".
    As for me, I preach the Gospel and occasionally have to use words ...
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    What should I put my trust in then? How is economic growth killing the planet? Worse than Chicxulub? How are we doomed? What is good news behaviour?
  • How is social justice dead in the west at all?? If anything here in the US many people, especially young people, seem more concerned about it than in ages.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    That's nice. Why don't they vote for it? Anywhere? Why do no Western, liberal political parties with any chance of being in power in FPTP systems, or of influencing policy in PR systems, have it in their manifestos?
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    Martin54 wrote: »
    That's nice. Why don't they vote for it? Anywhere? Why do no Western, liberal political parties with any chance of being in power in FPTP systems, or of influencing policy in PR systems, have it in their manifestos?

    You mean that no western liberal parties have the actual words "social justice" in their manifestos? Even if that's true(and I'm kinda doubting you've actually researched all the manifestos), the concept is nebulous enough that most of them would probably say that they do have policies promoting social justice, and this would not be directly contradicted by the texts.

    I think maybe you should name some specific policies that you think should be in progressive manifestos, but aren't, and then we can discuss why they're not included, eg. "Why isn't workers' ownership of corporations part of more party platforms?"
  • I’m responding to what I think the OP was about, which is about whether or not we are entering a new post-communism Cold War.

    I worry things are more like they were before World War I than they were during the Cold War. The world is increasingly multipolar, not bipolar or unipolar. There are ideological conflicts and threats to democracy where and to the extent that it exists, but a lot of conflict is explained by nationalism, irredentism, spheres of influence, imperial ambition, and revanchism. This situation - the multiplicity of powerful actors and the breakdown of alliances and multilateral institutions in particular - is much more unpredictable and more likely to produce miscalculations with devastating consequences.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    edited June 2024
    stetson wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    That's nice. Why don't they vote for it? Anywhere? Why do no Western, liberal political parties with any chance of being in power in FPTP systems, or of influencing policy in PR systems, have it in their manifestos?

    You mean that no western liberal parties have the actual words "social justice" in their manifestos? Even if that's true(and I'm kinda doubting you've actually researched all the manifestos), the concept is nebulous enough that most of them would probably say that they do have policies promoting social justice, and this would not be directly contradicted by the texts.

    I think maybe you should name some specific policies that you think should be in progressive manifestos, but aren't, and then we can discuss why they're not included, eg. "Why isn't workers' ownership of corporations part of more party platforms?"

    Corbyn's Labour Party came closest. With the true redistribution of wealth for the purposes of equality of outcome, not mere recalibration, reset. Starting - and ending - with land. Nothing else is social justice. Absolutely nothing. If it was in any significant manifesto, we'd all know about it.
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Social justice is dead in the West, there is no political progress toward it at all.

    Has it ever really been fully, vibrantly, invasively alive? I was born the year of the most recent race riot in Detroit - '67. 1969 was the height of the civil rights movement in the U.S. A constant game of whack-a-mole; build in one place to have it burned to the ground elsewhere.

    @Martin54 , when I first met you, you talked about love winning. People like Oscar Romero, Mother Wattles, your Muslim soldier whose name escapes me, and anyone else who works for any bit of social justice demonstrate to us that if love will win, it will be the result of a great deal of work and suffering, and it usually wins in small ways, often locally and unnoticed. Love wins by people doing the work they can do where they are.

    Whom can you start persuading to focus on social justice? You, the most rational, information-driven person I've ever met, have rare abilities. Where and how can you use them?
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    That's nice. Why don't they vote for it? Anywhere? Why do no Western, liberal political parties with any chance of being in power in FPTP systems, or of influencing policy in PR systems, have it in their manifestos?

    The US Democratic Party is imperfect, but working on it. (I have no idea what FPTP or PR mean)
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    (I have no idea what FPTP or PR mean)

    FPTP - First Past The Post. Whomever gets the most votes in a district wins, even if it's just a plurality, eg. how MPs are elected under Westminister, and congressmen in the USA.

    PR: Proportional Representation. Seats are allotted according to percentage of overall vote. Israel probably has the purest form.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    That's nice. Why don't they vote for it? Anywhere? Why do no Western, liberal political parties with any chance of being in power in FPTP systems, or of influencing policy in PR systems, have it in their manifestos?

    You mean that no western liberal parties have the actual words "social justice" in their manifestos? Even if that's true(and I'm kinda doubting you've actually researched all the manifestos), the concept is nebulous enough that most of them would probably say that they do have policies promoting social justice, and this would not be directly contradicted by the texts.

    I think maybe you should name some specific policies that you think should be in progressive manifestos, but aren't, and then we can discuss why they're not included, eg. "Why isn't workers' ownership of corporations part of more party platforms?"

    Corbyn's Labour Party came closest. With the true redistribution of wealth for the purposes of equality of outcome, not mere recalibration, reset. Starting - and ending - with land. Nothing else is social justice. Absolutely nothing. If it was in any significant manifesto, we'd all know about it.

    Well, yes, if public ownership of all land is the sine qua non of social justice, then no major party has that in their platform anywhere in the anglosphere, and even the marxist parties in continental Europe probably maintain that promise only on paper.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    If.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    edited June 2024
    Then, the opposite applies. And it does. The ancient Jews recognized it. The private ownership of land, as the statement of wealth, is the sine qua non of social injustice; private opulence and public squalor.
  • Oh for a Year of the Jubilee!
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    By the way, Happy Juneteenth!
  • stetson wrote: »
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    (I have no idea what FPTP or PR mean)

    FPTP - First Past The Post. Whomever gets the most votes in a district wins, even if it's just a plurality, eg. how MPs are elected under Westminister, and congressmen in the USA.
    Not always with regard to members of Congress. Some states require a runoff election if no candidate gets a majority of the vote. And since the US is largely a two-party system, in most cases, a plurality will probably also be a majority anyway.


  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    (I have no idea what FPTP or PR mean)

    FPTP - First Past The Post. Whomever gets the most votes in a district wins, even if it's just a plurality, eg. how MPs are elected under Westminister, and congressmen in the USA.
    Not always with regard to members of Congress. Some states require a runoff election if no candidate gets a majority of the vote. And since the US is largely a two-party system, in most cases, a plurality will probably also be a majority anyway.

    Alaska and Maine have adopted a ranked choice voting system. We discussed the Alaskan case in the 2022 mid-term thread.
  • Yes, thanks for that reminder.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    Kendel wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Social justice is dead in the West, there is no political progress toward it at all.
    Whom can you start persuading to focus on social justice? You, the most rational, information-driven person I've ever met, have rare abilities. Where and how can you use them?
    He's no George Sherban.
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    pease wrote: »
    He's no George Sherban.

    As Sherban is a fictional character, it seems that no one is.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Then, the opposite applies. And it does. The ancient Jews recognized it. The private ownership of land, as the statement of wealth, is the sine qua non of social injustice; private opulence and public squalor.
    Yet it's that to which all good Britons aspire. Land ownership is the foundation of property ownership. It's the most fundamental dividing line of inequality (and thus wealth) - everyone knows which side of the line they stand, sit and sleep. And it's an aspiration fleshed out (given life and shape) by debt.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    I’m responding to what I think the OP was about, which is about whether or not we are entering a new post-communism Cold War.

    I worry things are more like they were before World War I than they were during the Cold War. The world is increasingly multipolar, not bipolar or unipolar. There are ideological conflicts and threats to democracy where and to the extent that it exists, but a lot of conflict is explained by nationalism, irredentism, spheres of influence, imperial ambition, and revanchism. This situation - the multiplicity of powerful actors and the breakdown of alliances and multilateral institutions in particular - is much more unpredictable and more likely to produce miscalculations with devastating consequences.

    @stonespring. It's a new Cold War between poles of capitalism, one of which has free and fair elections. I see nothing multipolar about it. Although there is more than one axis of course. And you're right, there are increasing webs of power from centres, within greater webs of power (my paraphrase), with threads being made stronger (Russia-N. Korea), breaking (France-Africa), shifting (Russia winning 20% of Ukraine and much more besides). I simplistically project that on a cave wall shadow line. That matches with the Economist Democracy Index sorted top down in 2023.

    There is only one utterly devastating consequence, ELE. By full nuclear exchange. I don't see that ever happening by miscalculation. Including 0.1% equivalent worst case global warming in a century or three.

    Cold War is what key players are up to. Russia, India, Saudi, Iran, N. Korea (a travesty of communism, unlike Cuba, bless it), Israel, Euro-NATO (very weakly), China (without obviously killing anyone directly). The US doesn't seem to be murdering its enemies abroad like it used to. And its containment of Russia is failing. I agree it has a pre-WW I feel to it.

    Russia is becoming the security for Chinese financed sub-Saharan Africa. Where the main victims of social injustice are Muslims.

    The West is in decline territorially and culturally, especially socio-politically. There is no social mobility. Nobody wants what the West has to offer. Including the West. Apart from Taylor Swift.
    Kendel wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Social justice is dead in the West, there is no political progress toward it at all.

    Has it ever really been fully, vibrantly, invasively alive? I was born the year of the most recent race riot in Detroit - '67. 1969 was the height of the civil rights movement in the U.S. A constant game of whack-a-mole; build in one place to have it burned to the ground elsewhere.

    @Martin54 , when I first met you, you talked about love winning. People like Oscar Romero, Mother Wattles, your Muslim soldier whose name escapes me, and anyone else who works for any bit of social justice demonstrate to us that if love will win, it will be the result of a great deal of work and suffering, and it usually wins in small ways, often locally and unnoticed. Love wins by people doing the work they can do where they are.

    Whom can you start persuading to focus on social justice? You, the most rational, information-driven person I've ever met, have rare abilities. Where and how can you use them?

    There was huge progress in the C19th and much of the C20th. Chartism, trade unions, the Labour party and movement in the UK and then West. The welfare state throughout NW Europe, civil rights in the States. Huge progress at huger cost, all. All are stagnating now with the supremacy of liberal economics. The heroes you mention are a handful in the developing world. The ones who emblazon the better angels of our nature in the millions of us that barely break even. Including Captain Mbaye Diagne. So, there's only trickle down left in the West.

    The 80% flawed/un-democratic end is taking no lessons from the darker blue 20%, including the 1% darkest. Who are electing crypto-fascists in plain sight.

    1984 keeps coming to mind. Institutionalized global resource war.

    Happy Days!
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    @stonespring. It's a new Cold War between poles of capitalism, one of which has free and fair elections. I see nothing multipolar about it.

    The distinction between democracy and dictatorship seems like a pretty big one, despite your willingness to gloss over it.
    Martin54 wrote: »
    There is only one utterly devastating consequence, ELE. By full nuclear exchange. I don't see that ever happening by miscalculation.

    While I can appreciate the artistry of Busta Rhymes I think you're being a little alarmist about the consequences of his third solo album.
    Martin54 wrote: »
    The West is in decline territorially and culturally, especially socio-politically. There is no social mobility. Nobody wants what the West has to offer. Including the West.

    For those who are unfamiliar with @Martin54's shtick, he seems to gravitate to whatever the current Kremlin line is; in this case that liberal democracy is unable to deal with crises and is on the verge of collapse.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    As someone said, "The arc is long, but it bends toward justice."
    I might add sometimes it comes in waves,
    Other times it is cyclical.
    But it is long, and more justice is happening.
    Talk to your LBGTQA neighbor.
    Ask them what it was like 50 years ago.
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    And we'll see where that arc swings in January in the US.
  • The arc is long and it wobbles about, and goes backwards sometimes.
  • I was talking with my wife earlier about native Americans, and native Australians, and jeez, the arc of justice did a bit of a wobble for them.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Native Americans, First Nations are improving recently. In the US a Native American woman is now Secretary of Interior which handles all Native American affairs. A number have become congresspersons. Their arc appears to be ascending,
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Martin54 wrote: »
    I see nothing multipolar about it. Although there is more than one axis of course.

    If there's more than one axis... surely... it's... multipolar... because, you know, the ends of the axes... they're poles... and if there were more than one axis...
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Nobody wants what the West has to offer. Including the West.

    I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Lots of people seem to risk their lives for the chance to come to the West. Few risk their lives to leave. That seems like "extreme levels of desire".
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    I was talking with my wife earlier about native Americans, and native Australians, and jeez, the arc of justice did a bit of a wobble for them.

    Wobble? In the U.S. the arc was severed at its base. There is NO arc for them here. The best they've gotten here is finally to be left alone -- mostly. Underresourced in every way; on a sliver of their communal land, if any of it; stripped of independence and sovereignty; nearly stripped of their own culture. At least The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act allows them to regulate gaming on tribal lands now. In states that allow it.
    Martin54 wrote: »
    There was huge progress in the C19th and much of the C20th. Chartism, trade unions, the Labour party and movement in the UK and then West. The welfare state throughout NW Europe, civil rights in the States. Huge progress at huger cost, all. All are stagnating now with the supremacy of liberal economics.
    You're right. There was. Even I may vote. For now.
    And the labor movement that made middle class life possible for my family in the U.S., and the kind of valuing of public goods that made my education affordable and convenient and thus enabled my accumulation of land, goods and wealth that I can pass on to my kids, have been disowned, largely by the very people who have most benefitted from them.

    At least the current Michigan legislature was able FINALLY to repeal the idiot "Right to Work (for less)" law, which will be passed again, when we have our next Republican governor.
    Martin54 wrote: »
    The 80% flawed/un-democratic end is taking no lessons from the darker blue 20%, including the 1% darkest. Who are electing crypto-fascists in plain sight.

    I'm frustrated, no really angry, about the self-induced paranoia I see in "my tribe" here in the States. People steeping themselves in right-wing misinformation that tells them the world is far unsafer than it is. My mother worries about "General Lawlessness" that she sees in a single report of a protest in New York City on NewsMax from her quiet suburban apartment 1000 miles (est.) west. She, as well as apparently half the voters in the U.S., feel they need a strong-armed protector to keep them safe from the boogieman. The consequences will be devastating, I'm afraid. The 1984 they fear is what they are lining up for themselves. And for me.

    I am precisely the kind of person that the 45th president considers an Enemy of the State. Does no one hear that language and shudder?

    Sorry. I need to stop here.
  • Kendel, "wobble" is irony.
  • It's not "nothing," though it's woefully less than it ought to be. (I keep an eye on my own tribe's doings, as they try for the umpteenth time to get a representative seated in Congress according to treaty.) Has anyone heard how that court ruling about a large chunk of Tulsa belonging to ... can't remember the tribe?...turned out?
  • Aha! This is what I was looking for, though I haven't found the latest news on it yet. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-says-much-of-eastern-oklahoma-remains-indian-land/2020/07/09/7bdc42d4-c1e2-11ea-9fdd-b7ac6b051dc8_story.html. If it ever comes to fruition, there's going to be a lot of screaming.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Native Americans, First Nations are improving recently. In the US a Native American woman is now Secretary of Interior which handles all Native American affairs. A number have become congresspersons. Their arc appears to be ascending,
    Those are some really rosy glasses you seem to be wearing. Though when you’re pretty much starting at zero, any improvement is something.


  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    edited June 2024
    What uh bunch uh Kremlin lovers, eh @Crœsos? Liberal economic democracy is doing fine.
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    Eh?
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Well most of you don't disagree with me. Unlike.
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    You love the Kremlin, @Martin54 ?
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Apparently. @Crœsos knows, that I do, in some deeply personal way. It's certainly iconic. Nicely alien. Apparently they're running me. I'm their 5th column, right here. But my conditioning is such that I won't believe it. What do you think?
    .

  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    What do I think?
    In the matter of whether you love the Kremlin?
    Hmmm. Well, based on other discussions we've had, I can imagine you love the breathtaking architecture and art of the Kremlin. It is magnificently and alienly beautiful.

    I admit, I was confused and distracted by @Crœsos ' reference to Busta Rhymes and ended up on a rabbit trail that ended with an interruption. But now I do have my new bike rack assembled and attached to the hitch on my car. Oh. But I'm distracted again.

    Sorry!

    I won't go back over old political threads to evaluate Crœsos evaluation of your evaluation of political and military situations. I don't have time for that. And, like Busta Rhymes, I think it might could be yet another rabbit trail. And I'm really getting tired.

    So what do I think? maybe about this:
    Crœsos wrote: »
    For those who are unfamiliar with @Martin54's shtick, he seems to gravitate to whatever the current Kremlin line is; in this case that liberal democracy is unable to deal with crises and is on the verge of collapse.

    I find this confusing. Silly, I know. Muddle-headed of me. I thought you had referenced this map and this table. Maybe I was willingly deceived by my love of tables and maps! You weren't sneaking in some Kremlin propaganda by referencing a wikipedia map and table that show important democracies that had been stable and reliable as now "flawed". Were you?!!

    Maybe Wikipedia is now siphoning material from Pravda into the public without us knowing it!

    Or maybe it was your mention of the spectrum of capitalisms? From democratic to nondemocratic? Is THAT from the Kremlin?

    And to think I had worried about the next presidential election here.
    https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_2024_presidential_campaign#:~:text=Since fall of 2023, Trump,nativist and anti-LGBT rhetoric.

    I feel ill. I think I really need to go lie down after that.

    No. @Martin54 . I don't think you are unwittingly run by the Kremlin.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Waht?! What?! even. So you're saying you think I'm wittingly run by the Kremlin? They know they're doing it!
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    Sigh.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Wot? I don't know they're doing it! Pravda!
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    A move in the right direction for Northwestern tribes: US Admits Northwestern Dams Devastated Native American Culture. Still, a long way to go.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Yer see @Kendel, like Satan, just because the Kremlin has a lousy attitude, doesn't mean it's wrong. I don't share it's attitude and motivations. But it's winning. That's a fact. So yeah, I agree with Kremlin. But I'm intrigued why @Crœsos is Satanic in reaction to that?
  • I’m now completely confused about the Kremlin and Satan and what the heck people are talking about at this point.
  • ChastMastr wrote: »
    I’m now completely confused about the Kremlin and Satan and what the heck people are talking about at this point.

    You and me both. That's why I stay away :lol:
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    I’m now completely confused about the Kremlin and Satan and what the heck people are talking about at this point.

    Well, I think @Crœsos claimed @Martin54 consistently parrots the Kremlin line, then Martin said, in his usual opaque fashion, that he doesn't do that, it's just that the Kremlin happens to be right about a few things, and that they're winning the overall battle for hearts and minds.

    I assume calling Croeses "satanic" is something to do with Croeses being adversarial toward Martin.
  • stetson wrote: »
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    I’m now completely confused about the Kremlin and Satan and what the heck people are talking about at this point.

    Well, I think @Crœsos claimed @Martin54 consistently parrots the Kremlin line, then Martin said, in his usual opaque fashion, that he doesn't do that, it's just that the Kremlin happens to be right about a few things, and that they're winning the overall battle for hearts and minds.

    I assume calling Croeses "satanic" is something to do with Croeses being adversarial toward Martin.

    Ah, okay.

    (What is the Kremlin “right” about? The Earth being round? Whose hearts and minds?)
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    pease wrote: »
    Kendel wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Social justice is dead in the West, there is no political progress toward it at all.
    Whom can you start persuading to focus on social justice? You, the most rational, information-driven person I've ever met, have rare abilities. Where and how can you use them?
    He's no George Sherban.

    Aw shucks. Hey, I'm just this guy, you know. Like Zaphod. But without the false humility. I really am an insignificant mediocre nobody, not even like the girl who works it all out just before she's wiped out by the Vogon Constructor Fleet. I haven't worked it all out and I know it can't be. Om just a bloke on the bus. Like God. Down the pub. Who very rarely does either. Loved Canopus in Argos. The story of the little tomcat best of all.

    I've passed my genes on. They love me. I have some good friends, @Kendel.

    I is what I is. Like the other eight billion of us. Soon to join the hundred billion majority. Social justice, real justice, the real gospel is an impossible fantasy that evolution cannot obtain. Has not anywhere, ever. There are no post-scarcity Cultures. Never have been. Never will be. Just started The Dawn of Everything. It'll be 110% right. And a crock.

    Spot on @stetson.
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