You can lead a Trumpian to water....

It all started out with me responding to a FaceBook meme to the effect:

November 5, 2020
Gas was $2,79
Milk was $0.99
Everything was better then.
Do your research.

So, I responded back.
In 2020, our economy was all but shut down.
Small Businesses were collapsing
We were stacking bodies in refrigerator trucks
because of Trump mishandling of the pandemic.
Do YOUR research.

All of the sudden, I get flamed by Trumpians.

One said, "Oh sure, blame Trump for everything,
Another posted a meme that said "You can lead a liberal to water..."
Another asked, "Do you believe everything you read in the media?"

After the third strike, I just unfollowed the person that made the original meme.

But, I got to thinking I should have some retorts lined up.

For the first one, I could have said, "Well, ya..."
The second one, I could have said, "We liberals say the same thing about you Trumpians.
And a few combacks for the third one: "What media do you follow?" Or, "Something tells me you don't follow media." Or, "Must be bliss to be ignorant."

I don't know. I must just be getting two old to put up with this garbage. Tell me I am wrong.

Comments

  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Yes, maybe.

    On the other side why bother? No cure for stupidity.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Theirs not yours.
  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    'Never argue with a fool .... onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.'

    I do wish I, being of an argumentative nature, (no I'm not!) could remember that more often!
  • I'm not presuming to 'know better' but through bitter experience, I've learned to avoid political discussion on FB.

    If you want a decent discussion come here or discuss things with family or friends.

    I only post pics of places I visit on FB these days.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    "A man convinced against his will
    Is of the same opinion still"

    I have read that when people are surveyed about how much they agree with a speaker, the content hardly sways them at all.

    By far the strongest predictor of agreement is: "Do I like and identify with this person?", notwithstanding what they say or if they contradict things they have said earlier.

    Emotion eats reason for breakfast.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Dad used to say, never 'wrassle' with a pig. You'll get dirty and the pig likes it.

    Way at the beginning of the pandemic, friends of one of my cousins were arguing on FB that there was no disease, and nobody was dying from it. Trying to do my civic duty, I told them about a doctor I took my parents to for an annual check-up who was at that moment dying of Covid. They called me a liar and said horrible things to me. I, knowing that was not my 'wrassling' venue, told them 'you do you' and blocked them.

    BTW, that cousin's husband died from Covid and she came very close to dying. She still doesn't believe in the pandemic and especially refuses to take the vaccine.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    The cousin doesn't, or the friend doesn't?
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    Take it as instructive. Those that love him, love him. You can argue all you want; you will only look bad.

    We all have selective memories. They will list you a litany of Biden's evils and liberal evils that are causing the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

    Trump promotes the mythology of inherent U.S. greatness and that God-ordained might makes right and gives us the right to use it however we please. People who love it love it. Only the most moderate, if any, of his possible voters will be willing to think otherwise.
  • *tangent* I saw the OP and thought "You can lead a trumpian to water and then face the moral dilemma: Do I push him in?"
  • The AngloSaxon saying goes something like, "Never wrassle with a turd; whether you finish above or below you are beshitted".
    As an aside (sorry!) I rather like, "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make them think!"
    Or should this be in 'Bad Jokes'?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I have a feeling some of the responses on such posts seem to come from Russian, Chinese, or even North Korea bots.

    I like the comment about wrestling with a pig.
  • Yes. Best not to.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    I have a feeling some of the responses on such posts seem to come from Russian, Chinese, or even North Korea bots.

    I like the comment about wrestling with a pig.

    Yes, and even if they are not a bot or a human in a Russian troll farm, they could very well be an amateur troll here in the US out to “own the Libs”, not to persuade anyone or even to support any particular policy agenda. Even if they are not a true believer in Trump, they could have a chip on their shoulder
    from being looked down on by liberal celebrities, academics, and professionals, and feel that taking Liberals down a notch is the main point of politics - or at least of political discussion on social media.
  • I'm not presuming to 'know better' but through bitter experience, I've learned to avoid political discussion on FB.
    I pretty much avoid FB altogether; I maybe log into my account once every 3 or 4 months, and rarely for more than 15 minutes. To me, the cons far outweigh the pros.

    @Gramps49, you weren’t wrong at all, at least not factually. But there was no other way that discussion was going to go. “Don’t feed the trolls” is generally good advice, in my experience.


  • Professor Elemental has some words of wisdom here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jclPWidTfak
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    The cousin doesn't, or the friend doesn't?

    Sorry about that! My cousin doesn't.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    Professor Elemental has some words of wisdom here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jclPWidTfak

    At least today was a good day to go outside here.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    jedijudy wrote: »
    The cousin doesn't, or the friend doesn't?

    Sorry about that! My cousin doesn't.

    Wow. No need to apologise! It did read like that, but it seemed so extraordinary that I was searching for a possible alternative interpretation of the wording.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    jedijudy wrote: »
    Dad used to say, never 'wrassle' with a pig. You'll get dirty and the pig likes it.

    This.

    Arguing against a belief entrenches the belief further.

    Asking questions like “what makes you think that” helps, sometimes.



  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    Asking questions like “what makes you think that” helps, sometimes.

    aka Socratic ignorance.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Like arguing with anti vaxxers
  • Boogie wrote: »
    jedijudy wrote: »
    Dad used to say, never 'wrassle' with a pig. You'll get dirty and the pig likes it.

    This.

    Arguing against a belief entrenches the belief further.

    Asking questions like “what makes you think that” helps, sometimes.



    Yes, but, as you say, only sometimes...at other times, talking about something (or nothing) else is a better option!
  • Something suggested by the Holy Post people is that the best way to possibly help de-radicalize someone is (1) they must be someone you know and interact with regularly, ideally in person and not online, (2), asking them why they think such and such in a polite way, (3) get to really know them apart from political differences. A close family member rather than a seldom-seen uncle, etc. They talked a lot on the podcast about how people are now part of their own group which encourages them in these ideas. If you're aggressive, it doesn't help. It requires real time and effort. (It sounds like more than I can personally honestly take on, but I'm not really close with any Trump fans these days. The closest I have, an old high school friend and her husband, are moving away soon, and we hadn't really gotten together much since Cubby passed.)
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I think I found another whitism: "Don't get in the middle of an aerial crows' fight. You will lose." I hope I don't have to explain that one.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    It happened again. Not the aerial crow's fight. But someone injecting a political divide to an otherwise scientific discussion.

    A local issue around here is the proposed placement of a wind farm near a butte that is beloved for its scenery. I am not in favor of the placement of the windfarm in that area, but I can point to other places in the county which would be as good for wind production. The reason why the company proposing the farm near the butte is it can tap in to a trunk line that hooks a local dam into the national grid. The other place does not have such a trunk line.

    Anyway, someone posted two arguments that wind turbines contribute to global warming and they will not turn a profit in their expected lifetime. Both are easily refuted. The manufacturing of wind turbines does release some CO2 but their use does not. And, modern wind turbines turn a profit within five to ten years of their placement.

    The guy could not refute my counter argument, so what does he do, but accuse me of being a democrat who has no sense. So much for an ad hominin attack.

    Do other people get into these types of arguments in other countries, or is this just an American problem?
  • It's a social media problem.

    It doesn't just apply to political issues either. Just one or two instances.

    On a social media group in my town there was some discussion about a family with two dogs which would run loose around the streets. They weren't vicious but were something of a nuisance. Neighbours would often bring the dogs back.

    Amidst some sane and sensible discussion and suggestions as to how to address the issue, someone piped up. 'My five year old grandson goes that way on his way to school. If those dogs do anything to him, I won't be responsible for my actions!'

    I politely pointed out that we are all responsible for our actions and if anything were to happen to the dogs and they were harmed in some way, then guess who'd be the prime suspect based on their social media posts?

    On another discussion an elderly poster complained that a Spider-Man cut-out in a window display in a pizza joint was dangerous as it would distract motorists who would then swerve and hit pedestrians in the town centre. Yeah, right. 'Hey look! It's Spider-Man!' Screee-eecch! SMASH!

    I used to engage with this group when I was a town and borough councillor, generally in an attempt to put the record straight on things or explain how things actually worked. I was impressed by how some well-informed people behaved. But the loud-mouths and misinformed could not be persuaded to consider any other viewpoint.

    A classic was after I'd explained that town councillors were volunteers and didn't get paid, but that borough councillors receive an allowance, some numpty continued to insist that I was lying and either taking a salary or brown envelopes. Nothing anyone else said could persuade him otherwise.

    So, no, it's not just a US problem. It's a universal one.

    Some people are stupid.

    It's the same the world over.

    What's the solution? Avoid social media other than to post holiday snaps or check what your friends are up to.

    If you want a serious conversation about politics, science or anything else, find another way of doing it.
  • On another discussion an elderly poster complained that a Spider-Man cut-out in a window display in a pizza joint was dangerous as it would distract motorists who would then swerve and hit pedestrians in the town centre. Yeah, right. 'Hey look! It's Spider-Man!' Screee-eecch! SMASH!

    Whilst a cutout Spiderman is unlikely to cause such a distraction, the theory is sound. I drive past an electronic billboard on my way home, which blinks between different advertisments, and if you catch it at the right time in its cycle, what you see out of the corner of your eye is a flash of red and blue. That has the potential to cause an accident.
  • Sure. I don’t know where you are Leorning Cniht but we don't have that many flashing advertising hoardings of the kind you describe alongside British roads. There are some along a stretch of the M5 and M6 through Birmingham which I loathe and which strike me as posing a road hazard.

    If I could show you the location of the pizza outlet you would see that the location and road layout in a small town centre location makes the likelihood of a dangerous distraction highly unlikely. It wasn't an animated or articulated image. No flashing lights or movement.

    But sure, it wasn't as whacky a social media comment as others I could cite. I've also seen others more loopy than the instances I gave. They were simply ones that sprang to mind.

    My point was simply that obdurate refusals to listen to other points of view aren't limited to the US or to Trump supporters but can be found everywhere and anywhere. What social media does is give these things a wider platform.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I joined Facebook in 2012 for the same reasons I stay on it: to keep in touch with family and friends living far away (a sister in British Columbia, cousins and nieces in New Zealand and Australia) family in Zimbabwe and Kenya, many friends and family in the UK and US. When I joined, a large number of posters 'Friended' me because they know me in real life from media and publishing or from older forums and closed literary groups, so I have about 750 'Friends' who genuinely know me as a real-life acquaintance, are former colleagues, trusted correspondents or share many of my views and interests. That said, some went to school with me decades ago or last saw me as a small child at a family gathering. Others only know me from political protest marches or poetry readings.

    My Facebook therefore is a non-event and very strictly boundaried. After posting, I curate replies and delete anything too personal or controversial. If a post attracts too many volatile responses, I take it down right away. Facebook is increasingly an unskilled platform, so conversations (or civil arguments) aren't possible in a polarised, ignorant and alienated setting. From time to time I post pics of interesting plants, landscapes, apolitical local news, travel pics, brief book reviews or recommendations (where I have no direct involvement, no self-promotion). No 'train-smash' posts or emotional over-disclosing when I am upset or tired, no spicy gossip about mutual acquaintances, no complaints about former employers, no jokes or witty asides that might backfire, no unkindness. I never comment on complex political issues happening in places where I haven't lived or worked. Facebook for me is an uncontained environment because anyone can copy and paste text or images from a post so that personal info goes viral with no way of retrieving it, ensuring privacy or restriction. (And that is before we think about Google/Microsoft invasiveness or ads.) I don't share any other posts that might infringe copyright or be invasive of someone's privacy.

    And when I respond to others' posts, it is blandly positive and supportive 99% of the time. What I have found is that if you post personal stuff on your daily life on Facebook, people who are distant acquaintances (and their more distant FB acquaintances) start feeling as if they know you very well and then offer unsolicited advice or pass moral judgments or pick fights. Most FB isn't an educational or receptive place for the exchange of ideas or experiences. There is no shared social skill-set or consensus or agreed rules for debate or sharing. Those posters I know who do engage and have a lively Facebook timeline, limit their readership to a handful of trusted close friends, usually no family.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Doesn’t that mean the persona people “know” on Facebook isn’t really you ?
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Interesting point, @Doublethink! But it is the 'me' you'd encounter if you don't know me that well, pleasant, tactful and slightly guarded. Not the more outspoken 'me' you'd recognise in chatty phone calls, emails/PMs or at supper around the kitchen table with close friends after three glasses of wine. A pity but sharing too much on Facebook is like stripping naked in a shopping mall!
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I have - I'm slightly surprised to find - 90 FB Friends. Most of them either don't post, or possibly FB doesn't bother showing them. My posts are anodyne in the extreme (Look! Another view of the garden!) I delete ads and those data-fishing invites to take this or that quiz - and never look at any comments where they're numbered in 'k'. Because among those thousands there will certainly be hateful, ignorant and stupid ones.

    I'm looking for ways to further insulate my online presence - which makes up the greater part of my social life - from the news of people and events I find disturbing but about which I can do nothing.
  • I've found facebook increasingly unusable since they took to obscuring the option to display everything purely chronologically. My default feed would be dominated by older people meme-posting or putting out conspiracies.

    I only really use it to look at a couple of groups I'm part of (one around a particular hobby and one around a podcast).

  • I live on Facebook… once I am over my foot injury (God, please, soon) I need to make more local, in-person connections.

    Facebook: The Musical is still relevant…

    https://youtu.be/Y2JhpNbe2Io?si=WDPr0AzuZEghpH5I
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    I miss AVByte! Some of their parodies were so good.
  • Gill H wrote: »
    I miss AVByte! Some of their parodies were so good.

    Oh, they have other videos via their other channels! They each do their own channel, though only Vijay's seems active with quite a few AVByte-style videos (the latest one is from a month ago!). :)

    https://www.youtube.com/@PixelPlayhouse/videos

    Antonius' channel is less active, though it looks like he's still doing stuff, just not so much on YouTube.

    https://www.youtube.com/@antoniusnazareth/videos

    (I don't think they've had a falling out or anything.)
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited July 2024
    Made a trip into deep Trump country this week. We went to a wedding of a niece. We knew we were entering a different world when we saw this sign on US 95

    WELCOME TO TRUMP COUNTRY
    WHERE WE LOVE GOD, THE SECOND AMENDMENT AND OUR NEIGHBOR
    (Go Badgers)*

    *Referring to the local high school

    Another sign seen later
    This is a Refugee Free Zone.

    Our hosts were very conservative. We just smiled and changed the subject whenever they tried to bring up Trump.

  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    I always like to ask boisterous 2nd Amendment Tr*mpists what the 3rd Amendment is, or to name the five (5) things guaranteed in the 1st Amendment. It rarely goes well.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Good to know I won't have to quarter Trump's brown shirts.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Made a trip into deep Trump country this week. We went to a wedding of a niece. We knew we were entering a different world when we saw this sign on US 95

    WELCOME TO TRUMP COUNTRY
    WHERE WE LOVE GOD, THE SECOND AMENDMENT AND OUR NEIGHBOR
    (Go Badgers)*

    *Referring to the local high school

    Another sign seen later
    This is a Refugee Free Zone.

    Our hosts were very conservative. We just smiled and changed the subject whenever they tried to bring up Trump.

    Yikes, yikes, yikes. Can I ask what state? (I’m in Florida, with our own Trump Mini-Me, Governor DeSantis. Pray for us!!)
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    This was in Northern Idaho.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    (I’m in Florida, with our own Trump Mini-Me, Governor DeSantis. Pray for us!!)

    I've always thought that some enterprising Florida drag queen should start using the stage name Rhonda Santis.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Being a Canadian, I had to look up the third amendment.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    Being a Canadian, I had to look up the third amendment.

    Umm, I had to remind myself too.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    (I’m in Florida, with our own Trump Mini-Me, Governor DeSantis. Pray for us!!)

    I've always thought that some enterprising Florida drag queen should start using the stage name Rhonda Santis.

    They did!

    https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100082947523028&mibextid=LQQJ4d
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