Ship of Fools: St Bartholomew’s, New York City, USA

The Mystery Worshipper

Ship of Fools: St Bartholomew’s, New York City, USA

Beautifully executed Anglican worship, with a sermon on the offensiveness of God

Read the full Mystery Worshipper report here

Amanda B Reckondwyth

It should be noted that the choir room was a gift from silent film actress Lillian Gish. There is also a rehearsal piano that belonged to General Douglas MacArthur and which he took with him on his Pacific campaign during World War II.

Nick Tamen

I’m afraid the invitation to gather around the altar after the postlude to sing the national anthem would have fallen under the category of “And which part was like being in... er... the other place?” for me. It also would have had me making a hasty exit during the postlude.

I’ll admit I fall in the camp of those who feel that “The Star-Spangled Banner” should never be sung in church. (Yes, I know it’s in TEC’s Hymnal 1982. I don’t think it has any business being in a hymnal either.) I appreciate that it was sung after the liturgy rather than during it, but standing around the altar to sing it rather negates that distinction in my mind.

Bishops Finger

The UK National Anthem is in Our Place's default hymnbook (with the word Queen, of course, as the book is 20 years old...), and it is sometimes sung at the end of a service on or around some sort of national occasion - the death of the Queen, and the Coronation of King Charles being obvious recent examples.

It also gets sung on St George's Day, and probably on other days, too, as FatherInCharge is an ardent Royalist. I'm not there, and wouldn't sing it if I were.

After you in the rush for the door @Nick Tamen

Amanda B Reckondwyth

My experience has been that patriotic songs are sung only on or near federal holidays. The service in question was on July 7, only three days after Independence Day (July 4) and a part of the long holiday weekend.

I do agree that "The Star Spangled Banner" has nothing to do with religion. There was a movement in the early 20th century to make Irving Berlin's "God Bless America" the national anthem. However, neither Berlin nor songstress Kate Smith, who popularized the number, supported the movement. And of course Berlin was Jewish, don't you know, although Kate Smith was RC.

Even so, I have found that "God Bless America" is sung in church much more often than is "The Star Spangled Banner."

Nick Tamen

@Bishops Finger, at least “God Save the King” can be interpreted as a prayer to God. God gets one mention in the last verse, which no one ever sings, in “The Star-Spangled Banner.”

I have never, that I can recall, sung TSSB in church/in a church. (Nor “God Bless America” that I can recall.) I’ve never encountered either in a hymnal of my tribe. If a patriotic song is desired for the Sunday nearest the Fourth of July, it’s likely that “America the Beautiful” will be the choice, with its regular appeals like “God shed his grace on thee/and crown they good with brotherhood/from sea to shining sea.” Or maybe “The Battle Hymn of the Republic,” which I’m afraid I also have Feelings about.

Alan29

I think the only hymn with political references I could ever sing is "O God of earth and altar."

angloid

Alan29 wrote: »

I think the only hymn with political references I could ever sing is "O God of earth and altar."

It depends what you mean by political references, but I think I agree. Nationalism and Christianity are best kept well apart. As an Anglican in England I feel compromised enough, but transcending the C of E's role as a national church is its place as part of the global Catholic Church. If it ever disowned that I would be straight across the Tiber as soon as I'd found a pair of waders.

Nick Tamen

Alan29 wrote: »

I think the only hymn with political references I could ever sing is "O God of earth and altar."

I have heard “This Is My Song” increasingly used over the last decade or so as a patriotic/patriotic-adjacent hymn.

Amanda B Reckondwyth

Yes, the Finlandia number is very beautiful.. We often hear it with the words "Be Still My Soul". Not in the 1982 Hymnal, but No. 382 in the Book of Worship for U.S. Forces, of all places.

As for patriotic songs, "God of our fathers, whose almighty hand", No. 718 in the 1982 Hymnal, is also commonly heard.

Baptist Trainfan

Also to "Finlandia" - we have sung the (second) English translation in church on St David's Day. (We're not a Welsh-speaking congregation). The author was a very nationalistic Welsh minister! https://thecuriousastronomer.wordpress.com/2015/07/31/dros-gymrun-gwlad-dafydd-iwan-song/

Box Pew

I wonder if the Great Terrace where coffee was billed—but wasnt served to our MW—is the same as the open air restaurant called Inside Park. This is showin in the MW image and a visit on Mr Google's maps makes it look as though it is church owned land, presumably a money-earner.

Amanda B Reckondwyth

I believe that is the case.

Box Pew

If it is owned by the church it seems a bit mean not to open it for post service gathering by the worshippers.

Bishops Finger

Maybe, but perhaps the provision of suitably qualified staff is not feasible on Sundays?

My thought was that coffee may well have been available somewhere, but exactly where was not made plain, either to the preacher, or anyone else!

Box Pew

In New York one is rarely far from a coffee outlet 24/7—and since the Arabica coffee bean revolution some if it is even quite good! But the point here is not so much the caffeine as the welcome to congregation members on the spot where they have just worshipped. This is especially—but not only—important to welcome newcomers, the uncertain, the curious, the returners and doubters. And, yes, the odd sightseer and Mystery Worshipper. A lukewarm welcome can come across like none at all.

Nick Tamen

Box Pew wrote: »

A lukewarm welcome can come across like none at all.

Or worse than none at all.

Bishops Finger

Nick Tamen wrote: »

Box Pew wrote: »

A lukewarm welcome can come across like none at all.

Or worse than none at all.

Hmm. At least a lukewarm welcome acknowledges one's presence, whereas no welcome at all makes one wonder if one is, in fact, invisible (and possibly inaudible).

All of which sounds a bit like a plot for an MR James ghost story - the Invisible Worshipper at some nebulous Cathedral...is it the worshipper who is spectral, or the Cathedral congregation?

Be that as it may, it's still a shame that an otherwise quite positive Report was spoiled by the lack of interaction after the service. I note, however, that there were friendly greetings before the service, during the Peace, and by the deacon afterwards, so they didn't do too badly IMHO!

Nick Tamen

Bishops Finger wrote: »

Nick Tamen wrote: »

Box Pew wrote: »

A lukewarm welcome can come across like none at all.

Or worse than none at all.

Hmm. At least a lukewarm welcome acknowledges one's presence, whereas no welcome at all makes one wonder if one is, in fact, invisible (and possibly inaudible).

I have visited churches where I received a warm welcome, churches where I received a lukewarm welcome, and churches where I was treated as invisible. It may be a personal preference thing, but sometimes I’m quite happy to be invisible when visiting a church. Sometimes I prefer it. Maybe I fall in the “do it well or don’t do it at all” category.

Perhaps I should note that I would never go for after-service coffee (or whatever) at a church I was visiting unless I already knew people fairly well.

Nick Tamen

Nick Tamen wrote: »

Perhaps I should note that I would never go for after-service coffee (or whatever) at a church I was visiting unless I already knew people fairly well.

Sorry for the double-post, but I missed the edit window. What I meant was unless I already knew at least a few people fairly well.

Amanda B Reckondwyth

In my experience the best welcomes are friendly but not pushy. But there are times when I prefer to be left alone. And being left alone would probably not stop me from sampling the after-service coffee, especially if donuts are included.