Where do you want them to go, governor?

RuthRuth Shipmate
The US Supreme Court ruled in June that it's totally fine to charge people camping on public property with a crime even if there is nowhere else for them to go, overturning the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruling that it is wrong to criminalize people for sleeping outside when there aren't shelter beds for them. California Gov. Gavin Newsom was one of the elected officials asking them to do this. In late July he started urging city and county officials to start clearing homeless people's encampments. San Francisco is on board; Mayor Breed has told outreach workers to offer bus tickets out of the city to people who might be able to elsewhere before offering any other kind of help, and she's having encampments cleared out pronto.

The city and county of Los Angeles are not on board. City and county officials said they're going to keep doing what they've been doing (finding people housing and services, which is finally having some success - a 10% drop in homelessness over the last year in LA). Even the county sheriff said deputies will not be doing anything to homeless people unless they're committing actual crimes. So Newsom came to LA yesterday with a CalTrans (dept of transportation) crew to performatively clear out a homeless encampment on state-owned land in LA County. No heads up to local officials, just him and CalTrans and a camera crew. And he says he'll re-direct money away from cities that don't do what he wants -- the money cities are using to deal with homelessness.

Long Beach, the city in LA County where I live, has 1300 shelter beds, counting public and private offerings. The annual count of homeless people this past January says there were 3376 unhoused people in the city, so almost three times more people than beds. What will happen here I don't know -- the mayor said after the SCOTUS ruling that we'll keep doing what we have been doing (which, as in LA, is finally starting to show results), and after the governor's order he said we're already in alignment with it (which is to say, the city clears the state-owned land from time to time).

But what I want to know is this: where does the governor think unhoused people are going to go? How does he think hanging criminal convictions on people is going to help them get off the streets?

This fucker has two years left as governor, and he's decided he needs to get some press between now and leaving office so he can set himself up to run for president. So he's going to shift thousands of homeless people from place to place to place so he can look like he got something done.

Go back to The French Laundry, governor. You obviously have no idea how close so many people are to the edge and what they have to deal with once they've gone over it. Or been pushed. (Free link to NYTimes article about Newsom violating his own pandemic orders to eat in a super fancy restaurant.)

Comments

  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    There's little I've heard about Newsom that has sounded good. I was very surprised that people were talking about him as a possible presidential candidate.
  • It is very important to have individual housing, (not shelters) in place for homeless people with wrap around services to help them get on their feet.

    But, this is not just happening in the US. What happened to all the homeless people in Paris? Could there also be some in London? Or Sydney? It is a worldwide problem.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    I'm sure it's a problem in a lot of places. But I don't vote in Paris, London or Sydney. I vote in the US, in California. And I sure as hell won't be voting for Newsom ever again.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    But what I want to know is this: where does the governor think unhoused people are going to go?

    Somewhere where they’re not his problem, presumably.
    How does he think hanging criminal convictions on people is going to help them get off the streets?

    Well, if they’re in prison then they won’t be on the streets. That doesn’t make it the right answer, but it does make it an answer.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    They'll be right back on the streets after they get out, with the added burden of criminal records. Genius way to make the problem worse.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited August 2024
    California apparently has a housing first policy. Seems like Newsom wants to force people to use it. California has $22 billion dollars committed to this.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Did you even read that document? "Housing First is based on the understanding that client choice is valuable in housing selection" -- cleaning out encampments doesn't exactly fit with this. What Newsom wants is to be in the news. I don't believe for a moment that he gives a damn about the people living in tents under freeway overpasses.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    Did you even read that document? "Housing First is based on the understanding that client choice is valuable in housing selection" -- cleaning out encampments doesn't exactly fit with this. What Newsom wants is to be in the news. I don't believe for a moment that he gives a damn about the people living in tents under freeway overpasses.

    Yes, I read the document before I posted the link to it. I worked with a similar program in Spokane, WA. The homeless do have a choice. They can accept what is offered--if it is offered--or they face the consequences of being rousted every so often.

    Harsh, I know, but the problem has to be addressed.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Harsh, I know, but the problem has to be addressed.

    You are assuming that they are problems. Why are they more problematic than you? I bet your house takes up more space than theirs.
  • The document which I've just read seems to impose restrictions on programs that receive the housing funds to disburse or use on behalf of homeless people--so it doesn't directly affect those people at all. I mean, they can't just rock up and get x amount of money from the program to be used as they please or where they choose; they have to go through existing programs in their area, if any, and follow their policies.

    Which may be problematic, as there is a major loophole in the bit which allows the program to terminate clients who do something conflicting with the funder(s)--which apparently means "other funders," i.e. a church, community organization, etc. Which seem to have carte blanche to create rules which may lead to people getting kicked out of the program, and this document won't stop that.

    So I can't not wonder: What if the funder(s) are anti-immigrant and want to make undocumented status a reason to leave people in homelessness? Wouldn't this document allow that? I think it's going to be a major issue in a border state.

  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The homeless do have a choice. They can accept what is offered--if it is offered--or they face the consequences of being rousted every so often.

    Ah, I get it.
    “Many can’t go there; and many would rather die.”

    “If they would rather die,” said Scrooge, “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    edited August 2024
    The document which I've just read seems to impose restrictions on programs that receive the housing funds to disburse or use on behalf of homeless people--so it doesn't directly affect those people at all. I mean, they can't just rock up and get x amount of money from the program to be used as they please or where they choose; they have to go through existing programs in their area, if any, and follow their policies.

    California has already spent something like $24 billion in the last five years alone trying to deal with homelessness. Imagine if we just handed out that money directly to poor people.

    Which may be problematic, as there is a major loophole in the bit which allows the program to terminate clients who do something conflicting with the funder(s)--which apparently means "other funders," i.e. a church, community organization, etc. Which seem to have carte blanche to create rules which may lead to people getting kicked out of the program, and this document won't stop that.

    So I can't not wonder: What if the funder(s) are anti-immigrant and want to make undocumented status a reason to leave people in homelessness? Wouldn't this document allow that? I think it's going to be a major issue in a border state.

    If you look right above what you quoted, you'll see that these funds come from the federal government: the Emergency Solutions Grant (ESG) Program and ESG-CV Program are HUD programs.
  • Gwai wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Harsh, I know, but the problem has to be addressed.

    You are assuming that they are problems. Why are they more problematic than you? I bet your house takes up more space than theirs.

    I am not calling homeless people problems. They are the victims of a the problem of not having adequate housing with wrap around service for them. Homelessness has many causes--the housing first plan addresses those causes.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Homelessness has many causes--the housing first plan addresses those causes.

    The housing first plan wasn't supposed to include jail.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    edited August 2024
    I remember this being reported on the BBC. Deep red Dallas in deep red Texas. Which resonates with the observation that conservatives are more liberal with their money. And vice versa. As Noisome demonstrates.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Martin54 wrote: »
    I remember this being reported on the BBC. Deep red Dallas in deep red Texas. Which resonates with the observation that conservatives are more liberal with their money. And vice versa. As Noisome demonstrates.

    Isn't Dallas, like most cities, pretty blue? The 30th District (covering most of the city) is held by a Democrat. And most of the funding seems to have come from the federal government.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    The document which I've just read seems to impose restrictions on programs that receive the housing funds to disburse or use on behalf of homeless people--so it doesn't directly affect those people at all. I mean, they can't just rock up and get x amount of money from the program to be used as they please or where they choose; they have to go through existing programs in their area, if any, and follow their policies.

    California has already spent something like $24 billion in the last five years alone trying to deal with homelessness. Imagine if we just handed out that money directly to poor people.

    Which may be problematic, as there is a major loophole in the bit which allows the program to terminate clients who do something conflicting with the funder(s)--which apparently means "other funders," i.e. a church, community organization, etc. Which seem to have carte blanche to create rules which may lead to people getting kicked out of the program, and this document won't stop that.

    So I can't not wonder: What if the funder(s) are anti-immigrant and want to make undocumented status a reason to leave people in homelessness? Wouldn't this document allow that? I think it's going to be a major issue in a border state.

    If you look right above what you quoted, you'll see that these funds come from the federal government: the Emergency Solutions Grant (ESG) Program and ESG-CV Program are HUD programs.

    Yes, but are they the only funders? If so, there’s probably no problem. If private organization also fund a program, that might give them a veto power, the way it’s worded.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Martin54 wrote: »
    I remember this being reported on the BBC. Deep red Dallas in deep red Texas. Which resonates with the observation that conservatives are more liberal with their money. And vice versa. As Noisome demonstrates.

    Isn't Dallas, like most cities, pretty blue? The 30th District (covering most of the city) is held by a Democrat. And most of the funding seems to have come from the federal government.

    My superficiality knows no bounds.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Ruth wrote: »
    The document which I've just read seems to impose restrictions on programs that receive the housing funds to disburse or use on behalf of homeless people--so it doesn't directly affect those people at all. I mean, they can't just rock up and get x amount of money from the program to be used as they please or where they choose; they have to go through existing programs in their area, if any, and follow their policies.

    California has already spent something like $24 billion in the last five years alone trying to deal with homelessness. Imagine if we just handed out that money directly to poor people.
    It would help those who are homeless because of poverty, or probably help those in danger of becoming homeless because of poverty.

    But, a large proportion of those who are homeless (probably the majority) face many problems in addition to just poverty - top of the list being poor mental health, but also having a criminal record creates massive challenges with finding work or housing (which is another good reason why making being homeless a crime is counter productive). Housing first plans are supposed to circumvent the need to address the range of problems that result in people living on the street before getting them into some form of decent housing - but as @Gramps49 said these schemes do need to have the other services to help with all those other problems otherwise all you're doing is taking people off the street temporarily. And, you need those services available for those who have homes that they're struggling to stay in to reduce the number of people becoming homeless.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Yes, please tell me about homelessness. I worked at a downtown church in the county with the largest number of unsheltered people in the US for over 20 years, so answered their questions and talked with them on the phone and at the gate literally thousands of times, and the church started a homeless services agency a few years into my time there, so I worked with them for 17 years, but I'm sure you have the wherewithal to further educate me.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    The rates of mental illness and drug abuse in West Virginia are not significantly lower than in California, but our rate of homelessness is much higher. You know why? Because it's cheaper to live in WV. So yeah, a lot of people need help with mental health and drug use, but just giving poor people basic income would be a very efficient and fiscally responsible way to do a lot to get people off the streets and prevent them from getting there in the first place. Because what you fail to note is the number of unhoused people whose drug use and/or mental health problems started after they lost their homes.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    So, you weren't actually being serious about simply handing $5b a year to the poor, rather than funding the range of programmes to provide the services that people need to come off the streets or avoid ending up on the streets. It's not going to help someone with serious mental health issues to give them money without there being people available to help them with their health issues - and that requires funding for therapists, diagnostic capacity, medication etc, as well as housing which includes support they need.

    Of course, there needs to be more for the poor generally - jobs that are well paid and reliable, housing that's decent quality and affordable, affordable public transit to get to work and school, shops selling affordable healthy food and the time to cook that (rather than spending far more on food prepared by others), quality schools so that children can gain the qualifications and skills to get better jobs, etc. But, that seems to be a much broader task than the more specific questions of what the subset of the poor who are living on the streets or sofa-surfing need.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    And we need to change zoning and permitting laws and ordinances to make it easier and more profitable to build apartment buildings. The majority of land in California cities is zoned for single family homes, and cities require too much parking per apartment in places where you can build apartments, which makes it expensive to build them, so rents have to be high for it to be worth anyone's while to build multi-unit housing.

    Newsom's photo op and threats to city officials aren't constructive, in either sense of the word.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited August 2024
    Are the state, county or city law enforcement agencies actually arresting people and putting them in jail. I really cannot find any statistics one way or the other. Now, I imagine if a person is rousted for sleeping on the streets, police will check for wants and warrants. I can see those people being referred back to the justice system.

    I did find a comment that California is one of the few states that do not require housing for people who are being released from state prisons. That is about 36,000 people a year. If this is true, California should start using halfway homes to allow for a good transition that will help these people stay off the streets
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    So, are we agreed, housing first?
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Are the state, county or city law enforcement agencies actually arresting people and putting them in jail. I really cannot find any statistics one way or the other.
    Because there aren't any statistics yet, not in states under the jurisdiction of the 9th Circuit, including yours and mine. Go back and read the first paragraph in the OP and see if you can figure out why.

    I did find a comment that California is one of the few states that do not require housing for people who are being released from state prisons. That is about 36,000 people a year. If this is true, California should start using halfway homes to allow for a good transition that will help these people stay off the streets
    California's parole re-entry program is a patchwork of outside contractors and no one knows whether it's doing any good or not because the state's data is a complete mess (link goes to reporting on CalMatters' year-long investigation of the program):
    The state does not collect data on whether people on parole who participate in the program have found jobs or whether they returned to prison for another crime. What state data does show is that only 40% of participants completed at least one of the services they were offered.
    Something else the governor can't be bothered to do well.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    So, are we agreed, housing first?

    Sure -- where? The point is there isn't enough housing. There are more people than places because we have underbuilt housing in California for decades. There aren't enough shelter beds even, never mind actual housing.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Ruth wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    So, are we agreed, housing first?

    Sure -- where? The point is there isn't enough housing. There are more people than places because we have underbuilt housing in California for decades. There aren't enough shelter beds even, never mind actual housing.

    Your experience is second to none @Ruth. And none comes near here it would appear. OK, what about shipping container settlements? That's an open question. And the US army must be able to build prefab camps better than that too. There must be brownfield and (better) 'grayfield' sites all over LA. It always amazes me that with a trillion dollar defence budget, the army cannot provide almost instant housing (and other infrastructure after weather disasters, New Orleans, Puerto Rico come to mind).

    & @Gramps49. They have no choice. The concept is meaningless. And they should never be rousted. Re-located to accommodation only, ever. With wrap-around care as you say. If we elevate from the bottom up, everyone is better off.

    (I was the longest serving volunteer in a church 'outreach' to the homeless and vulnerably housed in the one of the poorest inner cities in the UK (which has provision in The Dawn Centre, that many don't want). So what. But I have seen it all. And learned how virtually impossible it is to help many desperate people. A - non-church - friend did wonderful work during Covid and got every one off the street in to hotels, in at least one ward. Since Covid they are back in the river camps. My winning the lottery fantasy was to buy an industrial estate to accommodate, train, educate, detox, therapy everyone; wrap-around care. It would only need one hundred million pounds... to lift up a thousand people... In a city with tens of times that of children in poverty. One hundred thousand pounds per person. That's how much it would cost, order of magnitude, to provide the full service. I said that here some years ago and was laughed to scorn. Until someone authoritative agreed.)
  • I reread Newsom's order. There is nothing in the order that tells local governments to arrest people who are homeless. It says governments need to do everything possible to place people in shelters or state approved housing programs.

    Unfortunately, when there are not enough beds available, as you point out Ruth, it becomes a vicious cycle.

    California, and other states need to make sure beds are available first before they resort to draconian measures. I concede that.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    We've got shipping container homes and tiny home villages, and cities have put people up in motels and hotels. We cannot legally house people on brownfield land. Grayfield land is being re-developed in some places, but not as low-income housing, which is incredibly difficult to build, and as grayfield land is typically privately owned, no one is going to put shelters or small homes for homeless people on it. Long Beach has been trying (sort of) for a couple of years to build just 33 tiny homes, and city officials can't get it done.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Ruth wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    So, are we agreed, housing first?

    Sure -- where? The point is there isn't enough housing. There are more people than places because we have underbuilt housing in California for decades. There aren't enough shelter beds even, never mind actual housing.
    I thought the where is quite obvious - where the wrong sort of housing is currently being built. Which needs, as you noted, changes to zoning rules to allow the higher density apartment buildings that are needed to meet housing demand.

    Do US local governments have powers to buy vacant lots to put social housing on? Or, to require developers to include social housing within the mix of properties they build?
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Ruth wrote: »
    We've got shipping container homes and tiny home villages, and cities have put people up in motels and hotels. We cannot legally house people on brownfield land. Grayfield land is being re-developed in some places, but not as low-income housing, which is incredibly difficult to build, and as grayfield land is typically privately owned, no one is going to put shelters or small homes for homeless people on it. Long Beach has been trying (sort of) for a couple of years to build just 33 tiny homes, and city officials can't get it done.

    I think your brownfields are worse than ours. We just put people up in hotels too. Thanks to Musk our fascists recently objected to that, but only if the people are brown.

    Surely there is a conservative argument for cleaning up brownfields for arcologies for the homeless? No children of course. The Tories here had a penchant for converting inappropriate office blocks even for poor families.

    Is zoning de-regulation politically possible in So-Cal?

    Do people get housing benefit in the States?

    I imagine there is no political-economic tipping point to actually do something.

    I can't help fantasizing that inner city arcologies will be needed when that point is soon reached. In China, India, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Japan (hmmm, quakes) first.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    So, are we agreed, housing first?

    Sure -- where? The point is there isn't enough housing. There are more people than places because we have underbuilt housing in California for decades. There aren't enough shelter beds even, never mind actual housing.
    I thought the where is quite obvious - where the wrong sort of housing is currently being built. Which needs, as you noted, changes to zoning rules to allow the higher density apartment buildings that are needed to meet housing demand.

    Homeless people tend to have a bunch of problems. They often have problems with drug and alcohol abuse, and by virtue of the fact that they are homeless, end up getting drunk or high in public. Drug habits also tend to accompany petty crime in order to feed the drug habits. Nuisance begging.

    Most people don't want to live next to that. You can find plenty of support for providing a secure place for the homeless to sleep, as long as it is somewhere out of the way.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited August 2024
    Might want to define brownfields and greyfields.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    AIUI shipping container housing is falling out of favour, because of the possibility of whatever had been transported in those containers (chemicals etc.) being unsafe.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Might want to define brownfields and greyfields.
    In the UK we'd tend towards calling post-industrial sites, especially where the ground may be contaminated with toxic chemicals, heavy metals and the like, "brownfield". We do build housing on brownfield sites, but this requires extensive site inspection to identify and remove hazardous materials.

    We've only recently started to use the phrase "greyfield", the Labour party in the recent election made a lot of noise about encouraging housebuilding on greyfield sites (especially in the greenbelt). Basically, it's any land that has previously been built on that's not classed as brownfield - so that could include where there has been housing, but also old commercial sites (shops or offices), schools etc.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Do US local governments have powers to buy vacant lots to put social housing on?
    Sure. A look at all the vacant lots currently listed for sale in Long Beach in places zoned for some kind of residential use:
    -- a 1500 sq. ft. lot zoned for dense housing - a small house burned down, and the listing says the owner was told by the city they could get a permit for a small two-story house
    -- 2 lots zoned for single-family housing
    -- 1 zoned for a duplex (2 families)
    -- 1 for mixed use, allowing 4-11 units of housing, according to the listing
    -- 3 contiguous lots included in the "Midtown Specific Plan," where the city is trying to encourage development of both businesses and "transit-oriented housing." The zone runs along Long Beach Blvd, a major thoroughfare with two lanes of traffic each direction and in the middle the light rail line that goes up to Los Angeles. This property is on Pacific Coast Highway, a cross street with LB Blvd that has three lanes of traffic each direction. PCH is not owned and maintained by the city but by the state, which doesn't give a rat's ass about us so it's one of the most dangerous roads in the city: 8 people died in traffic accidents on it last year. But an apartment here would beat living in a tent under a freeway overpass. Everything around it is commercial, and the listing is for $11 million, so I'm guessing it will end up as a commercial development. The most expensive house for sale here right now is going for $3.5 million.
    Or, to require developers to include social housing within the mix of properties they build?
    Yes. The LB city council passed an ordinance in 2020 (or 2021? not sure) requiring that 11% of rental development be set aside for very low income households and 10% of owned development (condos) be set aside for moderate income households. Development under 10 units is exempt. It applies only to small area of the city along major transit corridors -- 4% of the total land in the city. The city is currently looking at proposals to expand the requirement to the whole city. There are forums later this month and in September asking for public input. Home owners will go and yip about how housing poor people nearby will destroy their homes' value, but there are good organizations in the city representing low-income renters too.

    All this is to say it's an enormous problem that's been in the making for decades, and the solutions are hard and expensive and will take a long time. Clearing encampments of unsheltered people from public land will do nothing and is complete bullshit.
  • In Spokane there is a long strip of land a blockwide on either side of the 1 90 freeway. The strip is about a mile long on both sides (I believe that equares to about 2,000 acres

    It is my understanding this vacant land had been cleared when the freeway was built in the 60s and 70s. I believe this would have been what was considered undesirable neighborhoods. A few years ago, a homeless encampment developed in one small section of this land much to the chagrin of the city. The State Transportation Department owns this land. The city wanted the encampment removed. The highway department said, okay, but you have to find suitable housing for these people.

    The city tried to put people in an old warehouse as a general shelter, but the people would not go there.

    Then they worked with Catholic Charities and other not for profit agencies to rehabilitate an old, abandoned motel and several other properties that had been apartments. They finally got everyone placed and the encampment was finally closed.

    It would seem to me; this strip of land would be a great place to put tiny houses to shelter the homeless.

    I am sure the highway department is holding on to this vacant land to eventually add additional lanes to the freeway, but considering other alternative forms of transportation that are developing, maybe the department can sell with first option the land to a developer to build a village of tiny houses. It would give the city more space for the remaining homeless people.

    Eventually, if the transportation department wants to use the land it can terminate the lease. Considering how slow the highway department moves around here, though that would be 30 years down the line
Sign In or Register to comment.