Spiritual maturity. What is it? How do we recognise it? Can we attain it?
Gamma Gamaliel
Shipmate
in Purgatory
The_Riv and I got off to a bumpy start on a recent thread, effectively 'talking past' each other I think, in considering issues around 'spiritual maturity.'
So, what do we understand by this term? How does 'spiritual maturity' look to you? Is it something to aspire to and if so how do we attain it?
How is it understood within different faith traditions?
How do we recognise it if we see it? Or is it, by its very nature, something that doesn't draw attention to itself?
What think ye, Shipmates?
So, what do we understand by this term? How does 'spiritual maturity' look to you? Is it something to aspire to and if so how do we attain it?
How is it understood within different faith traditions?
How do we recognise it if we see it? Or is it, by its very nature, something that doesn't draw attention to itself?
What think ye, Shipmates?
Comments
Without getting back into some of the confrontational aspects of my reply to that, let me highlight the portion I think got @Gamma Gamaliel's wheel turning on this topic:
So, my smarminess aside (sorry), that's a little closer to the original gist, though I think for this thread @Gamma Gamaliel's OP may be a much better starting point.
I can see spiritual maturity in some priests I know or have spoken to, but not in all. It is something which is sensed rather than that which can be measured or pinned down, istm.
Okay, spiritual maturity--from my viewpoint (Lutheran, American, not quite 60 years old, with 50 years in the faith).
I would say true maturity is what you have when you've reached the state God intended for you to be when he made you. And that's going to be different for everybody, because he made all of us as individuals.
There will of course be some commonalities.
In what follows, I'm using "mature" to mean "mostly mature, well on the way to reaching the goal of perfect maturity." I don't think anybody in this life makes it all the way there, with the exception of Jesus, who wasn't infected with sin. But it's a pain to keep saying "mostly mature" and it makes people keep asking "What do you mean exactly by that?" so I'm putting this disclaimer here.
Spiritually mature people are humble people--not looking to promote themselves, much more interested in others and in God than in themselves, basically the kind of people who come off as really interested in YOU--and then you find out later that so-and-so has all these accomplishments and wow, why weren't we talking about that, but the reason is because they weren't even thinking about themselves, so they never bothered to mention whatever it was.
Together with this, they have a real concern for the well-being of others, and will do what they can to forward that--but as unobtrusively as they can, because they aren't seeking praise (probably wouldn't even occur to them) and they don't want to make you uncomfortable by intruding. So if they can help you, they will, but if their help is not needed, they'll fade out.
They have a sense of humor, and it's never aimed at humiliating others--though it may be mildly self-deprecating. It won't be seriously self-deprecating, though, because to the extent they think about themselves at all, they acknowledge that they themselves are also valuable children of God.
They tend to be warm and interesting people, as a result of their outward focus.
They are individuals--quirky, even--you won't find them trying to fit someone else's mold. But they aren't performing their quirkiness--they just are who they are. And they take pleasure in it, just as they take pleasure in your quirks--and may enjoy teasing you (gently) about them. Similarly they don't mind being teased gently about their own.
They are gentle and careful with other people, and remember how easy it is to cause harm. They try not to. Similarly they try not to cause pain, though if it's necessary and unavoidable, they'll go through with it and then try to pick up the pieces.
They practice forgiveness and good will toward their enemies and rivals, though they are almost certainly convinced that they are crap at these things. But if you look at their behavior, you can see they actually are trying to forgive, to love, etc. and it comes out in their deeds.
They have courage, though it's mostly quiet.
They will reach out for help when they need it, though this is probably one of the last things they've learned how to do appropriately! They have learned to accept care just as they've learned to give it.
They are angry when it's right to be angry. If they screw up in this area, they will apologize. Generally speaking, these are people who are not ashamed to say "I'm sorry" and not afraid to say "I don't know."
They praise others. They notice the presence and contributions of others.
They are appreciative and grateful people, not just to God but to everybody down to the person who served them coffee. (Which means that if they can possibly afford it, they are good tippers in tip cultures.)
They have a joy in their lives that comes peeking through at the strangest times. Similarly, a sense of hope.
They have thought about aging, disability and death, and made plans for how to face them. They may not be happy at the thought of these things, but they've got sensible plans in place and a certain amount of peace too.
Here's where you're going to disagree with me, a lot of you:
God is their lifeblood, their oxygen, though they may not speak a great deal about him, and they certainly don't make a parade of their piety. But they couldn't function without him, and they will admit that fact without shame. They consider themselves learners and beginners when it comes to spiritual matters, and God would agree (because that's the truth of basically every human being, in comparison to what we're meant to be and going to be when God gets through with us). They actively lean on God's help as much as possible, and acknowledge him instead of claiming to have accomplished everything on their own.
You probably won't hear a great deal about the details of how they relate to God (their spiritual practices, communication, etc.) unless you specifically ask them, or you've been drinking together. Generally speaking, they keep that stuff to themselves. However, if you hang around them long enough, you may happen across bits and pieces--for instance, walking in on them unexpectedly during prayer, or discovering quite by accident that they've been supporting X, who is poor, ill and elderly, by sending a good-sized check every month. If they find out you've come across something like that, they will try to get you to keep your mouth shut. And they will be royally pissed if you make a big noise about it.
@The_Riv - yes, that was partly what got me to start this thread but also I felt we were 'talking past' each other and probably talking about entirely different things.
I don't mean that in a combative way.
The kind of thing I had in mind were the sort of characteristics Lamb Chopped outlined so admirably and so much better than I could.
I'm not claiming that any particular faith tradition has a monopoly on those characteristics either. I'm sure if adherents of other religions were to draft a similar list there would be plenty of parallels and overlaps.
We do have to beware of a false humility in some of this stuff. That may be what The_Riv had in mind when he accused me of self-deprecation on the other thread. That wasn't my intention but I can understand how it may have come across like that.
There are tropes and indeed affectations within the Orthodox tradition which can fuel that kind of thing. You get people signing themselves as 'The ignorant and unworthy servant of God So-and-So.'
I heard a story of an American convert to Orthodoxy (he just happened to be American, that is incidental to the story) who had noticed that some Orthodox bishops signed themselves 'His Mediocrity Metropolitan Athanasius of ...' etc.
Apparently there was a mistranslation somewhere along the line.
Consequently, when he had occasion to write to a bishop he signed himself, 'The unworthy and mediocre servant of God Such-and-Such.'
When a reply finally arrived it began, 'How dare you claim to be mediocre. I am far more mediocre than you ...'
😀
My possibly limited and outdated experience of conservative evangelical Christianity is that spiritual maturity means something like knowing the right doctrines and behaving the right way. Whereas in a monastic tradition spiritual maturity is a disposition of emotions and attitudes, and is always a work in progress.
So where does Evangelism fit in, one might ask. By positive preaching rather than negative criticism perhaps
I see spiritual immaturity as the initial stages of faith, the seeking before we find, the dipping in of the toe in the spiritual waters.
I think that's an interesting observation @Dafyd, as @Telford's observations are too.
I agree with Telford that it is possible for people to be confident and secure in their own beliefs without feeling the need to pull down those of others. Also that it is possible to preach and proclaim the Gospel in a way that builds people up rather than tears things down in a legalistic, judgmental or hyper-critical way.
I'm becoming very conscious of the kind of shift that Dafyd describes as I've moved from various forms of evangelicalism into an older tradition informed by monastic and contemplative emphases.
I often find myself complaining at God, 'but this would only work if I were in a monastery!'
I've also become aware that what I took to be moral rectitude and a certain degree of biblical and theological knowledge, isn't sufficient in and of itself - that greater levels of spiritual maturity are required and that these require effort and application.
It's a bit like the story of the Desert Father who was heard crying out to God for mercy on his death-bed. The other monks were distressed as they regarded him as having led an exemplary life.
'My brethren,' he told them,'I have not even begun to repent!'
You may very well. I can think of at least a dozen people like this, and they tend to be older Christians (often but not always retired pastors and family) who have been in the faith for more than half a century, often through pretty hellish circumstances. But like you said, they don't draw attention to themselves. I'm pretty sure the ones with real maturity don't even think of themselves most of the time--they're far too busy handling other stuff for other people.
I'm thinking of our old district mission exec, who had a sly sense of humor and was a great deal of fun--but he could be counted on when things got tough, and he had good insight into why troubled people behaved the way they did. And could point you in the right direction not to make things worse.
My son's old piano teacher is similar--much devoted to her garden, but available to anybody having a hard time and needing a listener. Very patient, enjoys throwing a party, but seems to spend a fair amount of time quietly helping out people who need it behind the scenes.
And there was the chaplain I knew during bad times at work many years ago. He too had suffered, and advised me to pray and "outlive the bastards"--all while coping with said bastards himself on a daily basis, with grace and humanity. I owe him a lot of my sanity.
There's another who is a retired teacher, and has a great wealth of Bible knowledge at his fingertips--but is most helpful on the subject of suffering when it comes up. He lost a son a few years ago... He is involved in comfort dog ministry now--the people who take trained dogs to natural disasters and school shootings, that sort of thing.
I would go to any of these people if my life were falling apart and I needed help. They smell of Jesus.
I wonder what spiritual maturity looks like in someone with a severe mental health condition, or who suffers from chronic pain, or who is neurodivergent.
I suspect that not all of us would find outliving the bastards a spiritually mature perspective.
@Lamb Chopped cites retired pastors and clergy as examples because that's the milieu she knows from her line of work and ministry.
If she worked in a hospital or a factory, say, she may supply other examples.
One if my great-aunts has severe cerebral palsy. She was reckoned to be the 'worst case' in the English Midlands. This was the 'Brummie' side of the family.
She grew up with my Grandad and 10 other surviving siblings in a two-up, two-down slum sharing an earth-closet with other houses in the street. Each week her mother would wheel her across the city to a hospital where they would strap her into a leather harness and stretch her limbs in an attempt to 'straighten' then. It was like a medieval rack.
We were quite scared of her as kids. She would lie slobbering on a couch with towels under her chin to catch the drips. Her body was twisted into a corkscrew. Yet when we entered the room she would wheeze and chortle with joy and ask her sisters to fetch her purse so she could give us a 'tanner' (old 6d) each. She spoke excitedly in a piping voice which gradually became more comprehensible as we say close and held her hand.
She exuded love.
One great aunt never married so she could stay and look after Nell.
They had a kind of simple 'folk-Anglican' faith of a kind you don't encounter these days. I still have the Book of Common Prayer she gave us when we emigrated to Australia as £10 Poms in 1964. We came back in '66.
They refused to leave their home in Lascelles and lived through the riots there. They were very upset when that Asian postmaster and others died in the fire during those disturbances, they were their friends.
I was unable to attend the funeral but my mother did. She always loved 'Auntie Nell.' The vicar, who used to bring her communion every week, said he'd learned more about faith and resilience through suffering from Nell than anything he'd been taught at seminary.
My mother said that her surviving sisters gathered at the graveside - she was buried with her mother - and even though they weren't Pentecostals or anything of the kind, gathered in a kind of group huddle to pray - as you see in traditions of that kind.
She said that the grief, love and faith was electrifying, it was almost like a lightning bolt, it was almost palpable and tangible.
It got you in the gut.
That's the only answer I can give you your question @Pease. And of course it isn't always going to be like that.
The Orthodox 'Holy Fool' tradition celebrates people we would regard as 'neuro-diverse.'
Nell wasn't.
I always remember when visiting with my grandparents once, my Gran, who patronised Nelly to some extent, explaining to us lads in the kind of voice you'd use when talking in the presence of a child:
'Your Great Aunt Doll looks after Nell. Dolly's a bit deaf. Nelly's not deaf ...'
Quick as a flash Nell quipped, 'Nor daft!'
Our granddad was highly amused and very proud. He kept chuckling about it for years after.
Other religions? Or no religious beliefs? Not for me to say what motivates them.
@Lamb Chopped, Christians were thin on the ground in my family too. It was only the great-aunts on my mother's paternal side. My grandparents weren't believers on either side.
Go back to the late 19th century and my father's family were all ardent Baptists but for whatever reason the subsequent generation did not embrace any form of faith.
They were all around during the Welsh Revival of 1904-05, which by some reckoning, was a actually a swan-song rather than a major 'awakening'. It seems to have passed them all by.
Which raises another question as spiritual burn-out rather than 'spiritual maturity' seemed to be a feature of that.
I seem to recall being taught that Christian maturity meant being immersed in the study of the Bible and showing the fruits of the Spirit. Not one without the other. Both/ and, to use your language.
There are also those who are saintly in their behaviour without the in-depth study of the Bible.
I have thought of spiritual burn-out as referring to individuals rather than churches. There are many reasons for the decline in church-going, or the decline of any particular church, but I would not conclude burn-out, which to me speaks of over-work, over-zealousness.
I'm afraid I've long since come to the conclusion that ardent, fervent, edge-of-the-seat forms of spirituality are unsustainable longer term, but equally we don't want a luke-warm milk-and-water Christianity either.
I still value Bible-knowledge and Bible-study and it's a pity there isn't more of that across some of he more sacramental and historic Churches.
But as you say, it's not a pre-requisite for spiritual maturity. I doubt my old great aunts could have cited chapter and verse on anything.
I remember meeting an Orthodox priest who had visited Soviet Russia in his Protestant days. He was there helping underground churches and believers. He was struck by meeting Orthodox Christians who were prepared to go to prison rather than deny Christ but who couldn't string a 'testimony' together in the evangelical sense nor cite chapter and verse from the scriptures.
That's not an argument for neglecting them of course.
These are the beginning of an attitude that I struggle to appreciate, but as common as it seems to be I take it to be important, somehow. One must continually reduce one's self in this regard, I take it, if one is to progress spiritually (whatever that means).
Don't be sorry. It made me cry.
You may be familiar with the NT quotation, 'I must decrease, he must increase.'
There's a clue there. We defer to Christ. We defer to one another.
That doesn't mean we wear hair-shirts or revel in some kind of masochistic 'I'm a worm' mentality.
No, Galatians 6:4 is useful here, I think. It effectively says that we should 'take pride' in our own achievements and have self-respect without comparing ourselves with anyone else. There's more in there than that, of course, but it's a start.
If I say that such-and-such a Shipmate is far better than I am at X, Y, or Z I'm not saying that I'm a useless puddle of supperating shit.
Neither are those who've posted on the Heaven threads about things they are good or bad at necessarily being boastful on the one hand or Uriah Heep on the other.
There's a degree of rhetorical flourish about some of these things, as in the Desert Father example I gave. Which is why I posted the thing about the bishop contending with the convert as to which of them was the most 'mediocre.'
At the risk of trumpeting my habitual both/and thing, it's both/and ...
@Lamb Chopped for instance is clearly more gifted than I am pastorally. That's why she has a pastoral ministry and I don't.
I'm not going to lose sleep over that any more than she would were she to discover I could do something else that she can't.
It's not a competition.
Acknowledging that we have a long way to go in terms of 'spiritual maturity', however defined, isn't to wallow in self-deprecation. It's simply how things are.
I'd tend to measure how I'm 'doing' on the Ship by a reduced level of Hostly warnings or suspensions.
I've had a warning very recently for sailing close to the wind on some regulations. How do I deal with that? I either take the immature way by flouncing or by ignoring the warning and carrying on regardless or I try to modify my posting style.
Sorry to use myself as an example but it's an example close at hand.
It's about making mature choices.
None of us do that 100% of the time.
What we can do is increase our percentage.
Both of my parents were raised Missouri Synod Lutheran, but went through an Evangelical born again experience when I was a toddler. The married couple that shepherded my parents through that time nurtured them in their "development," and the wife (Barb) maintained an influence in my parents' faith journey for decades. Even after they moved to another state, my folks would make what I now see as pilgrimages to visit Barb for all the reasons one might seek out a guru (I mean no disrespect, here). My mom used to refer to Barb as a "giant" in the faith, and held her in a regard higher than most clergy (not a terribly high bar in my own experience), but you get the idea. Barb was always thought of and spoken of as if she possessed an enhanced, elevated experience and far deeper understanding. I was too young to be able to remember now what her theology was, but I think I'm accurate to describe it as Charismatic Evangelical. Anyway, Barb was my parents' mentor, for lack of a better word. Self-styled Spiritual Director?
FWIW, I have tended to appreciate mentor relationships through my own life. Find someone who's doing what you want to do at as high a level as possible, and spend time with them (or, them with you) to gain whatever you can to help you reach and/or exceed their "level." Many aspects of life involve heirarchies of experience, ability, longevity, etc. People achieve "Master" levels of craftsmanship having started as apprentices or novices, or "rookies." In nearly all of these endeavors, mastery is understood to be attainable. This is an imperfect analogy for reasons I'm sure some of you may enumerate, but when it comes to Faith, there does seem to be, in some regard, an inhibiting influence that seems to need to downplay (that's softer than self-deprecating, no?
One other typo I think. ‘Lascelles’ is probably Lozells (inner Birmingham)?
Which is largely irrelevant to your post but in case anyone goes looking on a map…
I can also see how I muddied the waters with my blanket assertion, 'we are all spiritually immature.' What I was driving at with that was that we are all sinners in need of a saviour, to use ol' time religion type language.
We can't do any of this by ourselves or in our own strength. It's not like learning a trade or going up through various levels like the Gnostic sects and classical 'mystery religions' did.
To say I need help learning a computer programme or running a marathon, say, would not be some kind of admission of total and utter inadequacy - I could get so far by my own efforts but would need high levels of support to get all the way.
You'd expect me to come out with some Big O stuff. We don't believe in Original Sin in the 'Western' sense and have a more 'positive' view of human nature than some other Christian traditions - and I'm not going to start slagging-off St Augustine here, but suffice to say that an 'overly' Augustinian view from our perspective causes problems.
Essentially, the Orthodox do believe in human 'perfectability' - it's one of the reasons why we stress the process of theosis - of becoming increasingly more 'like God' in simple terms - and more than that but we'll leave it at this for the moment ...
But we take a dim view of 'spiritual pride' and of parading our piety.
Equally, though, if we are not careful, we can run to the opposite extreme and come out with false piety and false humility - such as the tendencies I lampooned in the 'mediocrity' anecdote.
Many Orthodox will stay away from the Eucharist, for instance, on the grounds that they are 'not worthy.' Well of course they're not. That's part of the point.
None of this means that there isn't a place for what the Russians call plovdiv or spiritual exploits, ascetic feats and what have you. As long as people don't go around boasting about them.
I'm not sure I'm making myself any clearer here but I am echoing what @Lamb Chopped is saying about humility as a virtue. Not false humilty. Not Uriah Heep stuff.
Can you see the distinction I am trying to make here?
Thanks @betjemaniac - yes, I meant Lozells. I don't know why I typed 'Lascelles'. Shows I need a greater level of keyboard maturity ...
I think my picture of your contexts is clarifying, sure, though it's now diverging quite a bit from what I thought we were talking about.
We are, of course, coming at these things from different directions but it might help if you could clarify where you are coming from with this one and what you consider 'spiritual maturity' to involve - whether it be self-awareness or being comfortable in one's own skin or however else it may be seen by someone who isn't coming at it from a particular faith position.
Lozells. It's near to Handsworth. Not on my usual patch but I went there once to protect Prince Charles visiting one of his projects. I was on the tele.
@Telford, yes, I meant Lozells and well done for doing your policing and getting on t'telly.
On a general point, as forbearance, humility and concern for others are principles that apply across the board, for people of all faiths and none, then it's hardly surprising that we find these quality everywhere and anywhere.
I'm sure there could be parallel discussions to this one on Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or humanist boards, and with pretty much the same kind of virtues or values extolled.
None of which undermines or diminishes their presence or practice in a Christian context of course.
If we regard St Sophrony of Essex, or St Seraphim of Sarov or St Gemma or St Theresa of Avila or Elizabeth Fry or the faithful old lady at our local Methodist church as 'spiritually mature' it doesn't detract from the spiritual maturity of a Sufi Saint or a Jain or whoever else.
I'd be interested in what @The_Riv has to say as the thread has diverged from his expectation and how he sees these things playing out from a non-faith context and perspective.
Looking back at the OP, I notice I asked how we 'attain' spiritual maturity - however that is defined?
I'd suggest regular prayer, a repentant and teachable attitude, a Godward focus combined with compassionate concern for others and the world around us.
That's not an exhaustive list. Shipmates will be able to think of more and better I'm sure.
I'd not included arrangements or relationships of that kind.
I think it was @ChastMastr who took some umbrage re: the idea that 21st century Christians should/could be more spiritually “mature” than Paul. That’s coming from a more basic human development standpoint. Kind of a civilizational advancement thing. People reach levels of excellence in all kinds of endeavors. My non-supernatural hypotheses is that spiritual maturity should be included as one of those endeavors. And just like we’d rarely if ever look back 2000 years for more/better insight into, say, medicine (another area which is “practiced”), it strikes me as a little odd to suggest that spirituality shouldn’t or can’t be viewed in the same way.
Maybe I pause here for feedback.
Sure, the Apostle Paul lived in a world where slavery was acceptable and where attitudes towards women and children were very different to how they are now. Standards of health, literacy etc are much higher than they were then.
How do we judge or assess the maturity or otherwise of the Apostle Paul's spirituality compared with our own? Is ours necessarily going to be more 'mature' simply because we live 2,000 years later then he did?
It sounds to me rather like the 'Whig view of history' applied to spirituality.
Even though he was God Incarnate Christ couldn't possibly be as 'spiritually mature' as we are because we live in the 21st century not the 1st ...
Yeah, right ...
It's all very academic of course, as you are someone who no longer buys into a faith position and, correct me if I'm wrong, appear to using contemporary views and attitudes as a yardstick to measure the levels of 'maturity' of past generations. We have the capacity to nuke the planet to Kingdom Come but at least we don't have gladiators any more ...
I'm not saying there hasn't been progress. Of course there has. Penicillin. Greater levels of self-determination and choice.
And yes, we do seem to heve moved beyond Bronze Age notions of sacrifice and vengeance etc.
At least in theory...
I would have thought that whether we live in the 21st century or lived in the 13th, 3rd or 8th century or whenever else, the context should be taken into account.
Are we more 'spiritually mature' sat eating popcorn and watching a cheesy Christian You Tube video, say, than we would have been if we were Irish monks freezing away on a rocky outcrop somewhere in 732 AD?
If we are more 'spiritually mature' than previous generations, what are we doing about it? How does it affect those around us?
Pause.
Agree, I think - but I can see how that will be in tension with not just battering the Faith to fit what we want now, so it’s actually a bit of a tightrope to walk.
And allied to this; when engaging in some kind of craft it's possible to come up with the set of things you'd like to improve and then engaging in activities that improve that aspect.
How does that work spiritually, and how do we even gauge priority of which area of our life we should work on first? The whole thing seems to drip with hubris. How do we even know what 'better' would look like in our own lives, as opposed to someone else's
That may be (the Whig thing), but I'm not so sure that's exactly what I suggested. Chronology is more the envelope other things reside within rather than the thing itself. How should Paul's spirituality be judged? Wouldn't a starting point be via the same mechanisms suggested here? Fruits of the Spirit, humility, etc? This very quickly starts to stray over an "own voice" line, because I've all but completely disengaged from faith. I'd only say that the whole 'who am *I* to say how things should be judged' attitude does seem to (IMO) start to smack of the false humility so many are wary of. Touching on @Twangist 's idea of peer relationships, is it not within those dynamics that comparisons and contrasts are most valuable? Why shy away from that, spiritually? I'll paraphrase a quote oft heard at awards ceremonies: "If I have seen further, it is because I've stood on the shoulders of giants." or some-such thing. But not spiritually? That's arrogant? That's disingenuous?
I'm trying to be as self effacing in that regard as I can. But I'm not trying to judge in retrospect, here. I'm talking about my contemporaries being able to reconcile the idea of having eclipsed their forbearers.
I have, I think, but my curiosity, in part, is how much time needs to pass before something like spiritual maturity, if it is even in part a human endeavor, can be acknowledged let alone assessed.
These are questions for your fellow travelers. I no longer have what I believe is a helpful perspective in this area, unless outside, decidedly non-supernatural criticism is welcome. My guess is that at least @Lamb Chopped would prefer otherwise! (not in any way a criticism, @Lamb Chopped -- I'm just remembering your friendly warning upthread.
[disclaimer]Please forgive me if these answers are underwhelming. Progeny2 came into the house at 3AM from having been out of town, so not a great night of sleep, and to start our day today around 7AM Mrs. The_Riv broke and dislocated one of her toes by kicking the foot of the bed, and we've been out and back to the ortho clinic, and I'm waiting on her hand and foot (pun intended).[/disclaimer]
And I'm sorry, I don't recall any warning???