The Four Last Things

Setting aside, if only temporarily, the question of whether or not God is Love, I notice that we are fast approaching the season of Advent, when preachers are traditionally expected to tackle The Four Last Things - Heaven, Hell, Death and Judgement. Given that few Shipmates I think accept that the God in whom we believe despatches believers to a world of endless psalm-singing, or unbelievers to one of endless torment (could the two be the same?), and that the subject of death, usually taboo in England, is currently intensely topical, thanks to the Assisted Dying Bill, I wonder how any of my fellow passengers, if asked to preach an Advent sermon, would approach these matters.

Comments

  • We've already done a sermon on the topic, which was a general overview of what we believe about the Second Coming. We tend to do a lot of catechetical review, since our people are all converts.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    We've already done a sermon on the topic, which was a general overview of what we believe about the Second Coming. We tend to do a lot of catechetical review, since our people are all converts.

    I think that would probably be a good idea even among cradle believers, particularly in churches where the liturgy does not reinforce doctrine week by week.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Just at the moment the apocalyptic strand of Christianity that looks forward to God saying, let's cut all this short and do creation anew, is looking more like it has something to say to the present moment.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    Setting aside, if only temporarily, the question of whether or not God is Love, I notice that we are fast approaching the season of Advent, when preachers are traditionally expected to tackle The Four Last Things - Heaven, Hell, Death and Judgement. Given that few Shipmates I think accept that the God in whom we believe despatches believers to a world of endless psalm-singing, or unbelievers to one of endless torment (could the two be the same?), and that the subject of death, usually taboo in England, is currently intensely topical, thanks to the Assisted Dying Bill, I wonder how any of my fellow passengers, if asked to preach an Advent sermon, would approach these matters.

    I don't recognise these Four Last Things. Preachers at my regular church invariably used to preach Jesus and the cross.
    I thought the four things of Advent were Hope,Peace, Joy and Love
  • Telford wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Setting aside, if only temporarily, the question of whether or not God is Love, I notice that we are fast approaching the season of Advent, when preachers are traditionally expected to tackle The Four Last Things - Heaven, Hell, Death and Judgement. Given that few Shipmates I think accept that the God in whom we believe despatches believers to a world of endless psalm-singing, or unbelievers to one of endless torment (could the two be the same?), and that the subject of death, usually taboo in England, is currently intensely topical, thanks to the Assisted Dying Bill, I wonder how any of my fellow passengers, if asked to preach an Advent sermon, would approach these matters.

    I don't recognise these Four Last Things. Preachers at my regular church invariably used to preach Jesus and the cross.
    Yes, I wouldn’t say preachers in my tradition are “expected” to tackle those four things in Advent. I think there is often a focus on the Second Coming in early Advent/on Advent I. The lectionary certainly facilitates that. But that doesn’t necessarily translate to tackling heaven, hell, death or judgment. (Well, I guess judgment typically gets some attention.)


  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Telford wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Setting aside, if only temporarily, the question of whether or not God is Love, I notice that we are fast approaching the season of Advent, when preachers are traditionally expected to tackle The Four Last Things - Heaven, Hell, Death and Judgement. Given that few Shipmates I think accept that the God in whom we believe despatches believers to a world of endless psalm-singing, or unbelievers to one of endless torment (could the two be the same?), and that the subject of death, usually taboo in England, is currently intensely topical, thanks to the Assisted Dying Bill, I wonder how any of my fellow passengers, if asked to preach an Advent sermon, would approach these matters.

    I don't recognise these Four Last Things. Preachers at my regular church invariably used to preach Jesus and the cross.
    I thought the four things of Advent were Hope,Peace, Joy and Love

    And I thought they were Patriarchs, Prophets, John the Baptist, and the BVM.
  • Advent is a penitential season, traditionally. Our place is MOTR sacramental, perhaps yours is of a different tradition, Telford. The four you mention are not incompampatible with mine though, and could well follow them as a counterbalance.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    Advent is a penitential season, traditionally.
    In my (Reformed/Presbyterian of an American type) tradition, Advent would be better described as preparatory and anticipatory than penitential, though the penitential nature is reflected in the purple of the season. So, preparing for the Second Coming (at least early in Advent I) and preparing to celebrate the mystery of the Incarnation.


  • Telford wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Setting aside, if only temporarily, the question of whether or not God is Love, I notice that we are fast approaching the season of Advent, when preachers are traditionally expected to tackle The Four Last Things - Heaven, Hell, Death and Judgement. Given that few Shipmates I think accept that the God in whom we believe despatches believers to a world of endless psalm-singing, or unbelievers to one of endless torment (could the two be the same?), and that the subject of death, usually taboo in England, is currently intensely topical, thanks to the Assisted Dying Bill, I wonder how any of my fellow passengers, if asked to preach an Advent sermon, would approach these matters.

    I don't recognise these Four Last Things. Preachers at my regular church invariably used to preach Jesus and the cross.
    I thought the four things of Advent were Hope,Peace, Joy and Love

    I take them to be death, judgement, heaven and hell. The Second Coming sort of encapsulates the last three, though we mostly handled the topic biblically and not systematically--so the emphasis fell on "what to expect" and "being ready" and "What not to do, that is, fart around trying to predict what God has told us is unpredictable."

    But yeah, when I was writing the sermon summary, I couldn't help seeing the parallels with today.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Advent is a penitential season, traditionally.
    In my (Reformed/Presbyterian of an American type) tradition, Advent would be better described as preparatory and anticipatory than penitential, though the penitential nature is reflected in the purple of the season. So, preparing for the Second Coming (at least early in Advent I) and preparing to celebrate the mystery of the Incarnation.

    In the RC parish in which I serve, I find that the practice more reflects @Nick Tamen's preparation and anticipation than penitence. I, too, am unfamiliar with a "Four Last Things."
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    It's actually called the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill, which I notice manages to avoid direct use of the word "death" or "dying". And for all the talk of legal criteria and slippery slopes and palliative care and various other aspects of our society's arms-length medicalised approach, my perception is that it hasn't made much difference to the general avoidance of talking about death itself - the process of dying, at the end of which you are no longer living.
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Just at the moment the apocalyptic strand of Christianity that looks forward to God saying, let's cut all this short and do creation anew, is looking more like it has something to say to the present moment.

    Don't they always? To quote Don McGregor, all our past generations have seen revolutions. Likewise, all our past generations have had some convinced that they are the end times. When Jesus said that we will not know the day or the hour, he knew what he was talking about. I often think that that passage should be more loosely translated as: "You idiots will never figure it out."
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    edited November 2024
    Telford wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Setting aside, if only temporarily, the question of whether or not God is Love, I notice that we are fast approaching the season of Advent, when preachers are traditionally expected to tackle The Four Last Things - Heaven, Hell, Death and Judgement. Given that few Shipmates I think accept that the God in whom we believe despatches believers to a world of endless psalm-singing, or unbelievers to one of endless torment (could the two be the same?), and that the subject of death, usually taboo in England, is currently intensely topical, thanks to the Assisted Dying Bill, I wonder how any of my fellow passengers, if asked to preach an Advent sermon, would approach these matters.

    I don't recognise these Four Last Things. Preachers at my regular church invariably used to preach Jesus and the cross.
    I thought the four things of Advent were Hope,Peace, Joy and Love

    I take them to be death, judgement, heaven and hell. The Second Coming sort of encapsulates the last three, though we mostly handled the topic biblically and not systematically--so the emphasis fell on "what to expect" and "being ready" and "What not to do, that is, fart around trying to predict what God has told us is unpredictable."

    But yeah, when I was writing the sermon summary, I couldn't help seeing the parallels with today.

    That sermon sounds good to me. ❤️ One aspect being that Heaven, and the New Creation, aren’t really supposed to be the stereotype/comic strip notion of “endless psalm-singing” mentioned in the OP (usually on clouds with harps, halos, and wings 🙄 ).

    I certainly believe in the Four Last Things, and I know other Shippies do too… ❤️ Just not the stereotyped images. ;)
  • In recent years at least, Advent sermons I have heard have combined Patriarchs, Prophets, JTB and BVM with Hope Peace Joy Love, though not always precisely linked. It is many years since I heard a sermon on hell or heaven, except from the-awful-vicar-of-my-parish-church which I and 45 others left, who had only one sermon.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    I'm fully expecting hell to feature in our service tomorrow (weather permitting) as we have the Faith Mission leading, and they like a good threat of damnation to try and scare people into faith.
  • In Eastern Orthodoxy (and our Byzantine Catholic friends) The Sunday of the Last Judgement (parable of the Sheep and Goats read) is the second Sunday before Great Lent.

    Advent: we are called to a 40 day fast before Christmas*, a number of Feast Days for Old Testament Saints appear, the second Sunday before Christmas is the Sunday of the Forefathers and the one immediately before Christmas is the Sunday of the Fathers (both looking to the righteous of the Old Testament).


    * or the Nativity According to the Flesh of our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ if you prefer more words...
  • The Four Last Things (Death,Judgement,Heaven and Hell) are a traditional Catholic Christian meditation on these themes at the end of the liturgical year and the beginning of the next. The theme of Heaven and Hell at the end of the liturgical year has been replaced since the 1970s in the Roman rite by the theme of Christ the King.
    German Lutherans usually still refer to the last Sunday of the liturgical year as Ewigkeitssonntag (Sunday of Eternity) or also Totensonntag (Sunday of the Dead) Whatever the name it is a reminder at the end of the Church's year of the end of our own earthly life. (I don't know if this tradition is followed by American Lutherans.)

    The Four Last Things used to be a particular feature of Catholic parish missions, though I would say that this has now disappeared.

    Advent is indeed not so much a penitential season as rather a time of (quiet ?) preparation
    but with the liturgical colour in the Roman rite being penitential purple and the attempt at least for it to be season of meditation it gradually became to be seen as a penitential season.
    Again that has changed even in the RC Church.
  • Forthview wrote: »
    German Lutherans usually still refer to the last Sunday of the liturgical year as Ewigkeitssonntag (Sunday of Eternity) or also Totensonntag (Sunday of the Dead) Whatever the name it is a reminder at the end of the Church's year of the end of our own earthly life. (I don't know if this tradition is followed by American Lutherans.)
    In the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the last Sunday of the liturgical year is designated “Christ the King.”

    I think that the calendar of the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod simply calls the day “The Last Sunday of Church Year,” but as the Revised Common Lectionary is followed, many congregations observe it as Christ the King. @Lamb Chopped can correct me if I’ve got that wrong.

    Likewise, I think that the calendar of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod designates the day as “The Last Sunday of Church Year or Christ the King.”


  • Climacus beat me to it. I was going to say that it is already Advent - although we don't call it that - for us Orthodox types.

    There are parallels with some Western emphases, some implicit rather than explicit. There's a study group in our parish working through the late Fr Thomas Hopko's The Winter Pascha which I'm finding fascinating and engrossing.

    @Telford, I think you'll find that all churches preach Jesus and the cross. There may be differences in emphasis and interpretation but both will be there.
  • ... Fr Thomas Hopko's The Winter Pascha which I'm finding fascinating and engrossing.
    Thank you for sharing this; I had heard of it. I will look at getting it (even if it's the wrong season! 😉)

    Sorry for stealing your thunder!
  • Steal my thunder as much as you like! I don't mind being pipped to the post.
  • Ah ... you are in Australia of course. I understand the seasonal reference now.
  • Climacus wrote: »
    Sunday of the Forefathers
    Finding myself standing beside the icon of that Sunday in church this morning I realised I forgot to say "Forefathers" does include righteous women.
  • The problem with the Title of this thread, "The Last Four Things," assumes that Advent is at the end of the church year. It is actually the beginning of the church year which begins a week from Sunday. As pointed out, next Sunday is Christ the King Sunday, not only in the Lutheran World Fellowship, but also in the Anglican Communion, the Moravians, the Methodist Fellowship, and the United Church of Christ. Presbyterians too The previous four Sundays to Christ the King hints at the end times.

    Christ the King was designated by Pope Pius XI in response to the increasing secularism and ultra-nationalism (Fascism) of 1925. It was later adopted by the mainline protestant churches who are members of the Council on Church Union (COCU) in the mid 1960s when they came out with the Revised Common Lectionary.
  • @Gramps49 said
    The problem with the Title of this thread, "The Last Four Things," assumes that Advent is at the end of the church year.

    I don't think it assumes that at all. The sermons in Advent have traditionally been on the Four Last Things, probably because Advent doesn't just celebrate the first coming of Jesus, but also:
    For Western Christians of the Anglican, Catholic and Lutheran traditions, Advent signifies preparation for a threefold coming of Christ: firstly in the Incarnation at Bethlehem, then in a perpetual sacramental presence in the Eucharist, and thirdly at his Second Coming and final judgement.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advent#Significance
  • In my own congregation the interest in the Last Things tends to flow over from the last few Sundays of the church year into the Advent season for just the reason identified by ChastMastr. Though by the time we're actually in Advent, we've usually done enough preaching on the subject that we're relieved to turn to stories about the first coming, and preaching on the Incarnation. There's only so many times you can say "Be ready."
  • A retired Anglican priest observed to me the other day that the lectionary readings for this time of year were her least favourite, Daniel and Revelation - 'too many visions!'

    It isn't for me to say, but I think there's something in the emphasis on the Second Coming in some Western traditions during Advent, provided ... and you'll have anticipated this ... it's done in a both/and way with due consideration of the First Advent of Christ.

    You can't have one without the other. That may sound like an obvious point but it's one that needs making I think. Hopko is good on this.

    He contends that Orthodox iconography makes this very point too, among other things. We have an icon of the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary with the Christ-Child on one side of the 'Royal Doors' and Christ on the other- and that shows Christ in glory, as it were. The Risen and Glorified Christ. Sorry, but capital letters creep in when you are Orthodox ... 😉

    Whichever Christian tradition we are part of, we have to strike a balance with whatever theme we may emphasise at whatever point we are in the calendar - if we follow one. So, for instance, in the Orthodox Easter cycle, I like the way that the theme of each successive service introduces or segues into the next - Holy Thursday to Good Friday to Holy Saturday to the Easter Vigil and to Easter/Pascha itself. It can be spine-tingling.

    I am sure there are parallels and equivalents within Western traditions of course.

    However we do these things it pays, I think, to follow some kind of pattern, an intentional blue-print which holds any particular theme or emphasis, be it the 'Four Last Things' or the Cross and Resurrection or whatever else in balance with the whole, as it were.
  • _This morning, quite by chance, I came across a live broadcast of the reopening of Berlin's St Hedwig's Catholic cathedral after 10 years of planning and 6 years of work on the re-ordering of the building. The church looked like a modern concert hall, everything but everything was white including the glazed windows. The church was built, with the permission of the rulers of Brandenburg-Berlin, 250 years ago in 1774,somewhat on the model of the Roman Pantheon . For along time it was part of the Bishopric of Breslau (Wrocslav) until a Catholic bishopric was founded in Berlin in 1930.
    It was and is a fantastic church with the new altar in the very middle of the oval shaped building, made out of stones from all over the diocese, including some from the Berlin Wall.
    The altar and ambo are not raised in any way. The altar has the shape of a porridge bowl and in ecclesiastical language it looks like a baptismal font. The actual baptismal font in the same shape is immediately under the main altar in the crypt of the church,

    Today's feast of Christ the King was chosen for this celebration and the Archbishop made reference to the Lutheran Totensonntag (Day of Death) being celebrated today. After death we all find our completion in the realm of Christ the King.

    Too many things happened during the service which lasted two and a half hours but both the Catholic archbishop and the Lutheran bishop made mention of the linguistic link in English between Advent and adventure. Our life is an adventure where we look to the future with Faith and HOPE.
  • In an unwise moment I, a Reader in the C of E told my then Vicar that in my sermons I hoped to make people think about what they bekieved. She replied 'People don't like to be made to think'. The discuggion so far has been very interesting, but nobody has said how they would ppreach on Death, Judgement, Heaven and Hell (yes, that is the logical order) in a positive way to a present-day congregation who may not be keen to think about such things. Is the answer 'I wouldn't'? I would add that I was asked to preach on the subject by the Vicar preceding the one to whom I referred.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    I think I have preached in the past that Hell is a prison where the locks have been broken and the gates smashed aside, or words to that effect.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    The discuggion so far has been very interesting, but nobody has said how they would ppreach on Death, Judgement, Heaven and Hell (yes, that is the logical order) in a positive way to a present-day congregation who may not be keen to think about such things. Is the answer 'I wouldn't'? I would add that I was asked to preach on the subject by the Vicar preceding the one to whom I referred.
    I think where I’m getting hung up—aside from thinking no one in their right mind would ask me to preach—is the idea of being asked to preach “on the subject of” death, judgment, heaven or hell. That seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse. The sermon, in my view, should be “about” the Scripture reading(s).* If the reading(s) provide an opportunity to consider death, judgment, heaven or hell (as, say, Matthew 25 might), then fine, but that consideration should be in the larger context of the reading(s). As a result, what I might say would turn heavily on what the text says (and doesn’t say).
    * Whether it “works” to try and address multiple readings in one sermon depends heavily, in my experience, on the nature of the readings in question and the skill of the preacher.


  • Yes, definitely the question for me would be "What is God saying through this text to these people?" But if (as last week!) the answer was more or less, "review the doctrine of the Second Coming," we do so--and we highlight the hope inherent in that doctrine. Which someone on the old Ship put well by saying, "Some day God is going to throw the switch of the universe from Fucked to Fixed."

    Really, no different from any other Sunday. Find the Gospel--what good news the text is giving us that is always centered on Jesus. Sometimes you have to really dig, sometimes you have to take the text in connection with a text elsewhere (like we did with the beheading of poor John the Baptist). But that's how we do it, with this subject as with any other.
  • Yes, definitely the question for me would be "What is God saying through this text to these people?" But if (as last week!) the answer was more or less, "review the doctrine of the Second Coming," we do so--and we highlight the hope inherent in that doctrine. Which someone on the old Ship put well by saying, "Some day God is going to throw the switch of the universe from Fucked to Fixed."

    Really, no different from any other Sunday. Find the Gospel--what good news the text is giving us that is always centered on Jesus. Sometimes you have to really dig, sometimes you have to take the text in connection with a text elsewhere (like we did with the beheading of poor John the Baptist). But that's how we do it, with this subject as with any other.

    Amen.

    Yes, Advent points us to the second coming, but we look forward to it positively, not negatively.

    Like you comment about God throwing the switch too.
  • Yes, definitely the question for me would be "What is God saying through this text to these people?" But if (as last week!) the answer was more or less, "review the doctrine of the Second Coming," we do so--and we highlight the hope inherent in that doctrine.
    I’m sure this is a difference in our traditions, but even that sounds . . . odd? . . . to me. We generally don’t consider the sermon as the time to “review the doctrine of” anything. A particular doctrine might come up in passing, but the sermon generally isn’t seen as the time to review a doctrine as such.


  • Though Lord knows (at least I believe), we could use more reminders/education/etc. of doctrine and such. But that could be in other contexts than the sermon.
  • ChastMastr wrote: »
    Though Lord knows (at least I believe), we could use more reminders/education/etc. of doctrine and such. But that could be in other contexts than the sermon.
    Sure. We’d generally say that’s for classes (such as Sunday school) or other contexts. The sermon isn’t the same as a lecture or lesson.


  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited November 2024
    Well, we ARE Lutheran! But the doctrinal emphasis is also because our people are all converts, and catechism is even more desperately needed for them, some of whom have never heard it before. Though I look at my fellow Americans in the host congregation and suspect they’d benefit from a refresher as well. Bible study tends to be haphazard. Not to mention the likelihood of it getting sidetracked by somebody’s pet obsession with a YouTube preacher or some such (shudder).
  • That all makes sense, @Lamb Chopped, especially the consideration of your congregation being all converts.



  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    Though Lord knows (at least I believe), we could use more reminders/education/etc. of doctrine and such. But that could be in other contexts than the sermon.
    Sure. We’d generally say that’s for classes (such as Sunday school) or other contexts. The sermon isn’t the same as a lecture or lesson.


    Outwith young children, and often now not even then, churches in the UK don't have Sunday school. The liturgy gives some grounding in doctrine, but for the vast bulk of the congregation the sermon is the only direct teaching they will get.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited November 2024
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    Though Lord knows (at least I believe), we could use more reminders/education/etc. of doctrine and such. But that could be in other contexts than the sermon.
    Sure. We’d generally say that’s for classes (such as Sunday school) or other contexts. The sermon isn’t the same as a lecture or lesson.

    Outwith young children, and often now not even then, churches in the UK don't have Sunday school.
    Yes, I know many places don’t have adult Sunday school. That’s why I phrased my post in terms of what “we’d” do. Sunday school for all ages is still pretty the norm where I am. Young people would also have confirmation class, and in some congregations catechism class.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited November 2024
    We have those things, but you’re still highly unlikely to get much systematic teaching in certain areas of Christian knowledge. Particularly in churches where half the offerings are topics like “parenting teens”. Oddly enough, the best and most thorough teaching in my host congregation when it comes to the actual content of the faith is the virtually unpublicized lectionary study which is based on the texts for the Sunday and led by seminarians, or whoever turns up if it’s between terms . Simply having the word and six to twelve raving nerds (laypeople) is enough to get a pretty solid grounding over the course of a year. :wink:
  • Any competent Anglican preacher, it has been said, can get from the text of the day to the subject he/she wants to address in half-a=dozen sentences.
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