When did humans believe they can make systemic change

I was thinking about that one of the biggest critiques of early Christianity I have heard is that early Christians did not think of overthrowing slavery as a system. I then thought about it, and I wondered if ancient or premodern humans ever thought that they could actually radically change institutions in a dramatic and radical way, i.e. overthrow slavery as an institution.

When did humans believe they can make actual systemic change? The Enlightenment?

Comments

  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    I was thinking about that one of the biggest critiques of early Christianity I have heard is that early Christians did not think of overthrowing slavery as a system. I then thought about it, and I wondered if ancient or premodern humans ever thought that they could actually radically change institutions in a dramatic and radical way, i.e. overthrow slavery as an institution.

    When did humans believe they can make actual systemic change? The Enlightenment?

    I think it's probably about power more than thought - early Christians were largely powerless on the fringes of a mighty and hostile empire. Large scale societal changes were not something they expected to be in a position to achieve. By the time they had the power they were the slave owners and there was little incentive to seek change.
  • Do humans make systemic changes? Slavery is still with us, here and there. Gambling and alcoholism are still here. So is prostitution. We still have republics and dictatorships.

    On the other hand, we have had major advances in travel (for those who can afford it), communications, the availability of knowledge for most people, and medicine.

    First-Century Christians probably did not think of overthrowing slavery because (a) they were told not to ("Slaves, obey your masters!") and (b) they thought the last judgement was imminent. (The latter is still used as an excuse.)
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    HarryCH wrote: »
    Do humans make systemic changes?
    A big change is that the part played in our lives by manual labour - spinning, washing clothes, making tools - is much smaller. A comparatively small proportion of society farms or fishes. I think those count as systemic changes.
  • That verse has a lot more nuance than you’re presenting, I’m afraid. It was addressed to Christians who were already enslaved and so Paul tells them how to deal with that in their daily lives. He’s not giving political advice, that’s not even in view. And of course telling people how to deal with a sucky situation doesn’t mean the situation itself is good.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    I think humans have long realised the possibility of making systemic changes. For example the Romans realised that the existence of Carthage was incompatible with their ambitions and decided to make the systemic change of exterminating Carthage. More positively (perhaps) the concepts of law, currency and government suggest that people realise that by establishing systems and rules great change can be achieved.
  • That verse has a lot more nuance than you’re presenting, I’m afraid. It was addressed to Christians who were already enslaved and so Paul tells them how to deal with that in their daily lives. He’s not giving political advice, that’s not even in view. And of course telling people how to deal with a sucky situation doesn’t mean the situation itself is good.
    Yep. It seems to me Paul is working from the assumption that he’s addressing people who have no power at all to do anything about their own enslavement, much less the power to change the societal systems of which slavery was part.


  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    That verse has a lot more nuance than you’re presenting, I’m afraid. It was addressed to Christians who were already enslaved and so Paul tells them how to deal with that in their daily lives. He’s not giving political advice, that’s not even in view. And of course telling people how to deal with a sucky situation doesn’t mean the situation itself is good.
    Yep. It seems to me Paul is working from the assumption that he’s addressing people who have no power at all to do anything about their own enslavement, much less the power to change the societal systems of which slavery was part.

    Also in a system of hierarchy that went from the top all the way down, in a way that might seem alien to modern views—so too with the serf era in Europe and so on. Arguably, too, the “New World” colonial racially-based slavery we often think of was very different in various ways from ancient world slavery (including the notion of non-white people as less human in some way, which I think would have been utterly alien to people in St. Paul’s day).
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    I was thinking about that one of the biggest critiques of early Christianity I have heard is that early Christians did not think of overthrowing slavery as a system. I then thought about it, and I wondered if ancient or premodern humans ever thought that they could actually radically change institutions in a dramatic and radical way, i.e. overthrow slavery as an institution.
    The early Christians started a whole new religion! Doesn't that count as systemic change? I mean, as I understand it, they didn't mean to start a new religion so much as overhaul Judaism, but their changes to the institution of an ancient religion were dramatic and radical even without eliminating slavery.
  • To answer the OP, whenever conditions looked right to them. Which is frequent. There have always been revolutionaries and radicals (Ramesses II, Siddhartha Gautama, Jesus, Luther, Galileo, Bacon, Garibaldi, Bismark, Lenin, Mao, Gandhi, Castro), outsiders (Napoleon, Temüjin), usually of a ruling class, barbarians, visionaries. Paradigm shifters. Rarely from the working class. Wat Tyler comes to mind. And he failed. Due to his class... The status quo is constantly threatened; liberal forces are in retreat everywhere. By Archimedeans who find long levers. Trump is about to make the largest systemic changes in the West, including at home, since WW2.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    I was thinking about that one of the biggest critiques of early Christianity I have heard is that early Christians did not think of overthrowing slavery as a system. I then thought about it, and I wondered if ancient or premodern humans ever thought that they could actually radically change institutions in a dramatic and radical way, i.e. overthrow slavery as an institution.

    When did humans believe they can make actual systemic change? The Enlightenment?

    I think part of this is whether or not humans are thinking systematically about institutions. The classical Greeks certainly did, coming up with a lot of classifications of political systems (monarchy, oligarchy, democracy, tyranny, etc.) that we still find useful today. Indeed, a lot of internal wars within Greek poleis were fought between oligarchic and democratic factions, each trying implement or prevent institutional change in the form of their government.

    On the question of slavery it should be noted that there was some systematic institutional change in the ancient Mediterranean world. Once a society had invented both the idea of durable debt and commercially tradable slavery, some bright creditor would get the idea to collect on bad debts by enslaving delinquent debtors. As you can imagine turning free citizens into slaves might work for a creditor's bottom line but it's incredibly destructive from the point of view of society as a whole. Most states that endure find some way to eliminate or control the practice. The Athenians did this with the reforms of Solon in sixth century BCE, which forbade the enslavement of Athenian citizens for debt (or any other reason). Rome did the same in the fourth century BCE. The ancient Israelites took a different route, allowing debt slavery of fellow Israelites but limiting it to a term of six years. While this isn't the kind of total abolition that moderns prefer (each of these societies gladly enslaved non-citizens), these each represent changes to the existing institution of slavery.
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