I feel the western church as a whole declined because the people got too complacent. There was the feeling everyone is a Christian. Evangelism became dirty word. No one was doing the inviting. Easier to blame the decline on other things, than to admit it is our own d---- fault.
But the church is growing in Africa! That is because people will actually talk about Jesus.
I know our congregation went through a bit of a decline over the past twenty years. Then we got a young mother who invited the mothers of her kids play group to check us out, Now we have babies everywhere. I just hope the next generation of parents and kids will continue to do the invitin,
Sure. I know people with connections with a charity in Kenya. They say you can't walk down the street without someone stopping you and asking whether you are 'saved'.
My brother was on a train recently here in the UK when an African woman next to him leaned forward and asked a German visitor opposite, 'Are you Christian?'
The German woman replied, 'Well, I am Roman Catholic...'
'That's not what I asked,' responded the African woman sourly. 'I asked "Are you Christian?"'
Ok, there are major cultural issues at play here. It's not simply a question of people from certain cultures being more vocal and direct.
Back when the churches and chapels here in the UK were fuller than they are now, not all of them would have been of the 'Are you saved?' variety.
Church attendance in the Western world didn't start to decline simply because people stopped inviting their friends and neighbours to church.
Most churches in Eastern Europe aren't overtly evangelistic in the US sense or the Two Thirds World sense but decline hasn't been as marked there (yet) as it has been in Western Europe and parts of the US.
There's a whole range of factors and forces at play to account for that. Sociological, cultural, socio-economic.
I'm not suggesting that the decline in church attendance in the textile towns of the West Riding of Yorkshire from the 1920s was purely down to the availability of bikes, buses and the cinema.
What I am saying is that there were a whole raft of reasons and factors at play.
This isn't an attempt to 'blame' anyone or anything, but to understand the complex and interwoven forces at work.
Western Europe isn't Africa.
The north-eastern USA or the Western seaboard aren't Africa. Neither are they Idaho, Alabama or Nevada.
There are wider forces and influences at play in all these places, including your own church situation, than whether people are inviting their friends and neighbours to church services.
Oh, and @Baptist Trainfan you can cycle along the canal towpath from Huddersfield along the Colne Valley easily enough ... 😉
But no, I wouldn't fancy cycling up to Golcar or up towards Castle Hill and Almondbury.
This reminds me of a special moment of connection some years ago when a chap who looked after left luggage at a main London station asked whether we knew our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as we checked in our luggage. The person of no faith I was with found it very uncomfortable and backed off, while I said yes in reply and showed him the cross I wear. He called me his sister and we connected. I’ve never forgotten it. I don’t know where he was from, possibly Africa.
The mantra ‘You don’t have to go to church to be a Christian’ has a lot to do with the reduction in church attendance imv. There is a lot of interest in various faith offerings within the media however, on line eg with streamed services, blogs etc and on TV in eg ‘Songs of Praise’, and our church had more people who came this year to the Christmas services, so I wouldn’t write our faith off any time soon.
Huddersfield had trams in the 1920s, succeeded by lovely big red trolleybuses, which had no problem at all climbing the hills...
Even when churches were full, only a small proportion of the local population would be present, at least in urban areas. The Church Of My Youth, back in the 1960s, saw maybe 450+ on a Sunday (including those who went to both main services), but there were 10000 people in the parish.
Of course, some went to other churches, although I expect you see my point.
I remember speaking with other couples of my generation with children the same age, back in the 90ies, reflecting that none of our offspring continued to go to church once they had left home( or sooner). In particular they were finding their social life outside the church, whereas for us, social activities were centred around church- youth club, drama group, cricket team etc.
Do you think this was because they preferred to look outside church for such activities, possibly because they were better or more exciting elsewhere? Or was it because, for whatever reason, churches stopped offering them?
Our church still has a drama group - Panto coming up soon!
I attended a conference at King's College London way back in 2002 featuring the late Dr Andrew Walker, Nigel Wright the Baptist and others. Roger Forster of Ichtus opened in prayer.
It was called 'On Revival' and a book of the same name came out shortly afterwards edited by Kirsten Aune.
I was sat next to a very earnest Calvinist, a former Pentecostal, who thought the whole thing was awful because it examined sociological factors which he felt, 'undermined the sovereignty of God.'
As if the 'sovereignty of God' couldn't have been at work in and through various socio-cultural factors.
There's an echo there of Father Fu**kwit's persistent references to pretty well everyone not like him *disobeying God's Laws*, and thereby (according to him) deserving of the Pains of Hell.
Do you think this was because they preferred to look outside church for such activities, possibly because they were better or more exciting elsewhere? Or was it because, for whatever reason, churches stopped offering them?
In an environment where a particular church is one of many alternatives, it's natural that drama groups, cricket teams, or whatever else will develop outwith the church. What are the odds that the people who live near you and are good at / interested in drama, cricket, or whatever else are also members of the same faith group?
I remember speaking with other couples of my generation with children the same age, back in the 90ies, reflecting that none of our offspring continued to go to church once they had left home( or sooner). In particular they were finding their social life outside the church, whereas for us, social activities were centred around church- youth club, drama group, cricket team etc.
Do you think this was because they preferred to look outside church for such activities, possibly because they were better or more exciting elsewhere? Or was it because, for whatever reason, churches stopped offering them?
Our church still has a drama group - Panto coming up soon!
I finished my A-levels in 1991. As far as I recall, virtually none of the social activities of my age group were anything to do with churches. There were 3 people (out of 180 in my school year) that rang church bells (2 of us still do). Rather more were involved in various city/county sports clubs, or with Guides/Scouts, or music, or dance.
There must have been a church youth group in one of the churches in the school catchment, since my younger sister and some of her friends went to it (a handful out of 240 in her school year). But she was initially taken there by one of her friends, as it was the other side of town to where the parental Knotweeds still live, and I think it only started about 1991.
I suppose what I'm saying is that for my generation church was mostly irrelevant as regards social life. Most of our parents went there irregularly, if at all.
Do you think this was because they preferred to look outside church for such activities, possibly because they were better or more exciting elsewhere? Or was it because, for whatever reason, churches stopped offering them?
Our church still has a drama group - Panto coming up soon!
All of the above. Definitely more exciting elsewhere.
Do you think this was because they preferred to look outside church for such activities, possibly because they were better or more exciting elsewhere? Or was it because, for whatever reason, churches stopped offering them?
Our church still has a drama group - Panto coming up soon!
All of the above. Definitely more exciting elsewhere.
To a certain extent, and going back a bit further than @Celtic Knotweed, that was true in the early 70s. The Youth Group at the place I then attended still had about 50 members at that time, but IIRC there were no particular social activities attached to the church.
I think the church I referred to was designed and built without much thought to the difficulties of maintenance, and without much thought of the general disastrous decline in church attendance which was to begin in the 60s...just at the time the building was opened...
In addition, the ancillary structures (vestry, office etc.) were badly built, and subject to so much water ingress that - according to another local priest - the vestments in their cupboards were already unusable several years ago.
One idea put forward to reduce heating costs in the church proper was to install a glass ceiling a few feet above head height - this would keep the heat in, and also retain the natural light.
A church in Harrogate did that. Have you got a million quid?
Alas, no. The lack of £££ (and the unwanted listing ), allied with the pandemic, have put any work to the church on the back-burner. The hall - which has a neat *worship area* at one end - is a perfectly acceptable piece of plant, IYSWIM, and serves the parish well.
(It isn't the church with which I am still loosely associated, BTW, but it's in the same Town).
Do you think this was because they preferred to look outside church for such activities, possibly because they were better or more exciting elsewhere? Or was it because, for whatever reason, churches stopped offering them?
Our church still has a drama group - Panto coming up soon!
All of the above. Definitely more exciting elsewhere.
Yes, but I remember being quite taken in the early '80s by the rather homespun quality of the social activities found in churches, the silly games, the barn-dances, the sense of authentic fellowship and community.
Do you think this was because they preferred to look outside church for such activities, possibly because they were better or more exciting elsewhere? Or was it because, for whatever reason, churches stopped offering them?
Our church still has a drama group - Panto coming up soon!
Do you think this was because they preferred to look outside church for such activities, possibly because they were better or more exciting elsewhere? Or was it because, for whatever reason, churches stopped offering them?
Our church still has a drama group - Panto coming up soon!
All of the above. Definitely more exciting elsewhere.
Yes, but I remember being quite taken in the early '80s by the rather homespun quality of the social activities found in churches, the silly games, the barn-dances, the sense of authentic fellowship and community.
I remember Adrian Plass saying in one of his books that “you will have life in a barn-dance”…
I think the church I referred to was designed and built without much thought to the difficulties of maintenance, and without much thought of the general disastrous decline in church attendance which was to begin in the 60s...just at the time the building was opened...
In addition, the ancillary structures (vestry, office etc.) were badly built, and subject to so much water ingress that - according to another local priest - the vestments in their cupboards were already unusable several years ago.
One idea put forward to reduce heating costs in the church proper was to install a glass ceiling a few feet above head height - this would keep the heat in, and also retain the natural light.
A church in Harrogate did that. Have you got a million quid?
My idea for our vast beautiful freezing incredibly-expensive-to-nearly-heat place is to house a Zeppelin in it. The energy consultant (worth his salt; replace the absurd interior floodlights - you can feel the heat mind - with neons to cut 80% of electricity use) said 'Cardington!'. I costed up a suspended Perspex ceiling (good for 20 years) at 10% of the cost of glass. 2% if I did the labour.
I think the church I referred to was designed and built without much thought to the difficulties of maintenance, and without much thought of the general disastrous decline in church attendance which was to begin in the 60s...just at the time the building was opened...
In addition, the ancillary structures (vestry, office etc.) were badly built, and subject to so much water ingress that - according to another local priest - the vestments in their cupboards were already unusable several years ago.
One idea put forward to reduce heating costs in the church proper was to install a glass ceiling a few feet above head height - this would keep the heat in, and also retain the natural light.
A church in Harrogate did that. Have you got a million quid?
My idea for our vast beautiful freezing incredibly-expensive-to-nearly-heat place is to house a Zeppelin in it. The energy consultant (worth his salt; replace the absurd interior floodlights - you can feel the heat mind - with neons to cut 80% of electricity use) said 'Cardington!'. I costed up a suspended Perspex ceiling (good for 20 years) at 10% of the cost of glass. 2% if I did the labour.
Remember to include the cost of cleaning it. Which will include aparatus to make the cleaning possible.
Test it out and report back.
I predict you'll be directed to rotate and swab weekly.
Vertical lass and plexiglass panels are awful to keep close to clean. Horizontal can simply break the spirit.
What gravity does with dust!
Test it out and report back.
I predict you'll be directed to rotate and swab weekly.
Vertical lass and plexiglass panels are awful to keep close to clean. Horizontal can simply break the spirit.
What gravity does with dust!
I do like the Zepplin idea.
It's opaque, too.
There speaks the voice of experience! Zip lines, so I can hover above. And the Zeppelin has to be transparent.
@Anteater I realize I have shifted the discussion from @Martin54 's pragmatic, cost effective suggestion for improved heating in an old church building to the problem of new maintence issues but have not considered the cost.
Comments
This reminds me of a special moment of connection some years ago when a chap who looked after left luggage at a main London station asked whether we knew our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as we checked in our luggage. The person of no faith I was with found it very uncomfortable and backed off, while I said yes in reply and showed him the cross I wear. He called me his sister and we connected. I’ve never forgotten it. I don’t know where he was from, possibly Africa.
The mantra ‘You don’t have to go to church to be a Christian’ has a lot to do with the reduction in church attendance imv. There is a lot of interest in various faith offerings within the media however, on line eg with streamed services, blogs etc and on TV in eg ‘Songs of Praise’, and our church had more people who came this year to the Christmas services, so I wouldn’t write our faith off any time soon.
Even when churches were full, only a small proportion of the local population would be present, at least in urban areas. The Church Of My Youth, back in the 1960s, saw maybe 450+ on a Sunday (including those who went to both main services), but there were 10000 people in the parish.
Of course, some went to other churches, although I expect you see my point.
Our church still has a drama group - Panto coming up soon!
I attended a conference at King's College London way back in 2002 featuring the late Dr Andrew Walker, Nigel Wright the Baptist and others. Roger Forster of Ichtus opened in prayer.
It was called 'On Revival' and a book of the same name came out shortly afterwards edited by Kirsten Aune.
I was sat next to a very earnest Calvinist, a former Pentecostal, who thought the whole thing was awful because it examined sociological factors which he felt, 'undermined the sovereignty of God.'
As if the 'sovereignty of God' couldn't have been at work in and through various socio-cultural factors.
In an environment where a particular church is one of many alternatives, it's natural that drama groups, cricket teams, or whatever else will develop outwith the church. What are the odds that the people who live near you and are good at / interested in drama, cricket, or whatever else are also members of the same faith group?
I finished my A-levels in 1991. As far as I recall, virtually none of the social activities of my age group were anything to do with churches. There were 3 people (out of 180 in my school year) that rang church bells (2 of us still do). Rather more were involved in various city/county sports clubs, or with Guides/Scouts, or music, or dance.
There must have been a church youth group in one of the churches in the school catchment, since my younger sister and some of her friends went to it (a handful out of 240 in her school year). But she was initially taken there by one of her friends, as it was the other side of town to where the parental Knotweeds still live, and I think it only started about 1991.
I suppose what I'm saying is that for my generation church was mostly irrelevant as regards social life. Most of our parents went there irregularly, if at all.
All of the above. Definitely more exciting elsewhere.
To a certain extent, and going back a bit further than @Celtic Knotweed, that was true in the early 70s. The Youth Group at the place I then attended still had about 50 members at that time, but IIRC there were no particular social activities attached to the church.
A church in Harrogate did that. Have you got a million quid?
(It isn't the church with which I am still loosely associated, BTW, but it's in the same Town).
Yes, but I remember being quite taken in the early '80s by the rather homespun quality of the social activities found in churches, the silly games, the barn-dances, the sense of authentic fellowship and community.
Ooo, what play?
I remember Adrian Plass saying in one of his books that “you will have life in a barn-dance”…
My idea for our vast beautiful freezing incredibly-expensive-to-nearly-heat place is to house a Zeppelin in it. The energy consultant (worth his salt; replace the absurd interior floodlights - you can feel the heat mind - with neons to cut 80% of electricity use) said 'Cardington!'. I costed up a suspended Perspex ceiling (good for 20 years) at 10% of the cost of glass. 2% if I did the labour.
Remember to include the cost of cleaning it. Which will include aparatus to make the cleaning possible.
I predict you'll be directed to rotate and swab weekly.
Vertical lass and plexiglass panels are awful to keep close to clean. Horizontal can simply break the spirit.
What gravity does with dust!
I do like the Zepplin idea.
It's opaque, too.
There speaks the voice of experience! Zip lines, so I can hover above. And the Zeppelin has to be transparent.
Sorry.
I will try to stay on topic.