I have never been to an ecumenical service ehich included communion.
However, I have done many Alpha courses with a group including RCs, Anglicans, Baptists and others together. We included an ‘agape meal’ as part of the weekend away - this involves shared bread and wine and prayers, but it was explicitly explained this was not communion, Mass, eucharist…
Classic Anglican fudge maybe, but it was very meaningful to us.
It's all down to context. A shared meal in that context sounds entirely appropriate.
Although with bread and wine involved I could see how it might feel uncomfortable for some.
The conference I was thinking of has, as @Ex_Organist observed upthread, a particular remit from its founders about a century ago to provide a platform for attendees to experience one another's mode of worship. Generally speaking, though, apart from now or occasional attendees the regulars all know very well what an RC or Anglo-Catholic Mass looks like, what happens at an Orthodox Liturgy or in Anglican Morning Prayer.
The other thing I had in mind was a joint confab and service at a university chaplaincy, attended mainly by staff. Everyone was getting on great guns and the service went swimmingly until all of a sudden the RCs and Protestants were invited to have their own communion in separate rooms.
Talking about the Stations of The Cross, I remember one year back in my Baptist days when the local RCs invited us to that. A group of us went along and we all found it very interesting. We all behaved ourselves. The activity itself was quite inspiring but a visiting priest preached a pretty dud sermon. Our RC hosts were very apologetic about that but we told them not to worry about it.
It struck me at the time as a very positive exercise and a fruitful ecumenical occasion.
As Father Jack memorably garbled in Father Ted, 'Now that would be an ecumenical matter ...'
Around the same period, at a Baptist church some friends attended across town, the minister invited an RC priest to lead some weekly Lenten meditations. Several older people left the church because of it.
I may be unusual, but I think major feasts and commemorations are the least helpful times to have ecumenical services.
I tend to agree: churches tend to want to celebrate these "in house". Having said that, in one place I served, we managed to run two or three successful open-air services in the Town Hall square on Pentecost Sunday.
The cohort of churches in our area—Presbyterian, Lutheran, United Methodist, United Church of Christ and Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)—have a joint Good Friday service. This started after Covid and has been very well received. The service moves from church to church each year, and the music director from the host church is in charge of music. The choirs of the churches combine. The preacher is not from the host church.
In my experience, American Thanksgiving is the most common time for ecumenical, or perhaps interfaith, services here, and that’s what we used to do. But attendance had slowly dropped off, so after Covid we tried Good Friday instead, and it has worked well.
I might note that the denominations of three of the five churches I mentioned—the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the United Church of Christ—are in full communion with one another. The ELCA is also in full communion with the UMC, and the Disciples of Christ are in full communion with the UCC. The nearby, very progressive Baptist church used to take part in the Thanksgiving service, but they haven’t participated in the Good Friday service so far. I’m not sure why; ecumenical stand-offishness isn’t in their nature.
I might also note that I almost never hear anything about the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity beyond acknowledgment from denominational offices that it’s happening. I don’t see anything on the ground, as it were. By contrast, I regularly see of activities of Church Women United.
Anywhere else do the ecumenical Walk of Witness on Good Friday?
This still goes ahead in our town, and is a special time for those who take part - but the ecumenical service beforehand only ran for a couple of years before each church wanted to their own thing again.
Anywhere else do the ecumenical Walk of Witness on Good Friday?
I’ve never encountered one; I only know of them from hearing about them on the Ship. I’ll admit I find myself somewhat leery of it as an act of witness, but they may be completely rooted in my unfamiliarity or/and my own quirks.
I can understand that - not on account of your quirks (whatever they may be! ) but because whatever we do out on the streets is going to look a bit odd.
I remember a friend in a large northern city telling me how onlookers were laughing when they saw a solemn Anglican Good Friday procession, replete with robes, croziers and a large wooden cross.
Equally, for all the fuss and rah-rah-rah that was made across the evangelical and charismatic spectrum during the large-scale 'March for Jesus' rallies back in the late '80s/early 90s, the public response was often very different to what the organisers claimed.
I remember hearing a well-known and very sensible evangelical charismatic preacher and author reflecting on this at an academic conference. He'd found himself 'trapped' inside a shop for a while as the procession went past, Christians waving banners, singing and declaiming. People in the shop became quite heated and cross. Several of them were delayed returning to their vehicles before their parking tickets expired.
'Bloody Christians! Who do they think they are blocking the streets up on a busy Saturday morning?'
At church the next day the speaker heard 'testimony' after 'testimony' about how wonderful the March for Jesus had been and how marvellous a witness it all was.
I'm not saying we shouldn't process around the streets or go on 'walks of witness' and so on, but let's be realistic about what they can actually achieve.
Our Town has a Good Friday Walk of Witness, largely in the pedestrianised High Street. It's supported by most of the churches, albeit only in small numbers apart from the charismatic-evangelical Place at one end of the street.
It features loud (amplified) gospel music, and a sermon, also amplified. I don't know what reaction it gets from the people in the High Street, but I suspect that some of it is akin to that described above by @Gamma Gamaliel.
I can understand that - not on account of your quirks (whatever they may be! ) but because whatever we do out on the streets is going to look a bit odd.
Yes, as you describe in your post, it’s not so much the oddness as it is that it seems to me a very ineffective form of witness.
Sure. Which begs a number of questions of course. What is an effective form of witness? What does it look like? How might it differ - if at all - from what people of good will of all faiths or none might do in their communities?
Ha ha some of this reminds me of the ‘follow Jesus but don’t be a jerk about it’ message!
If the walk of witness is a genuine quiet walk by ordinary people behind a cross to mark the day, taking care to disrupt townsfolk as little as possible, it seems to me that it is likely to be more readily received than one which is aimed at making the people of the town take notice and get out of the way.
Sure. Which begs a number of questions of course. What is an effective form of witness? What does it look like? How might it differ - if at all - from what people of good will of all faiths or none might do in their communities?
I’d say Matthew 25 is a good start—feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, etc. Then there’s love one another (to loop back to the thread topic).
Sure, other people of good will often do the same. That doesn’t negate or diminish our witness when we do those things in the name of Jesus and in gratitude for the grace and love shown to us in Jesus.
Ours has dwindled to a few old folk in the town centre, walking with a cross and stopping every so often for a bit of bible or a song. I don't partake.
About the only thing it pays witness to is the sorry state of the local churches.
I tend to think that the idea of Christian unity is a red herring. Disunity is as old as the religion itself, so nothing has really changed very much on that front in 2000 years. I suppose that if one begins with disunity one always holds unity as a hopeful goal. I get the whole standard argument that as a human endeavor the church/faith will always be fraught with difficulties, but on the other hand, I don't think Christianity would be nearly as big as it is today were it not for its inherent disunity. Certainly a kaleidoscopic Christianity has reached more people than it would have as a monochrome.
So, maybe keep the idea of Christian unity centered on Faith, Hope and Love among your respective houses, bearing in mind the old lyric "And they'll know we are Christians by our Love, by our Love -- yes they'll know we are Christians by our Love." Much more important, I'd think, that the rest of the world unite you from without by understanding your Love than you be able to unify yourselves in any way from within, since that will always involve some measure of diminishment.
Well, the OP specified Christian unity, which is a subset of what you're describing, @Eirenist. I'm rather for your view, even to the point of accepting that plenty of people don't believe in any supernatural aspect.
Anywhere else do the ecumenical Walk of Witness on Good Friday?
Yes, we do. We stop outside each church on the way for a short prayer, and finish up with bacon rolls, tea and coffee in a church hall. I don't think it functions particularly well as a witness to non-Christians, but it's a convivial get together for the different churches (Roman Catholic / Episcopalian / Presbyterian / Evangelical)
Mind you, there are those at Our Place who would jib at eating bacon on Good Friday - I was told that abstaining from meat on any Friday was a way of honouring Our Lord's sufferings, so presumably eating meat on the day of the Crucifixion is even more of a no-no.
They still rush into the Hall after the Good Friday liturgy, though, in order to devour the Hot Cross Buns on offer...
No meat generally on Wednesdays or Fridays for the Orthodox. We aren't supposed to have dairy products either but the late Archbishop Gregorios said that any British convert who didn't take milk in tea was a fanatic ...
Good Friday is designated a total fast day for those who are able to observe that but it's not 'policed'.
Bacon rolls on Good Friday are a no no for RCs but if they are offered it might be rude to refuse.
I remember once an Italian evening which was held in a Catholic Secondary school in Edinburgh. Various Italian culinary specialists came along with samples of their delicacies.
It was a lovely evening but the school authorities seemed to have forgotten that it was,by chance, being held on Ash Wednesday - a day of Fast and Abstinence.
Equally as with the Orthodox there is no one who can 'police' who eats what or why.
Anyway, people over 65 are exempt from fasting and abstinence.
Our small town used to have a Good Friday walk of witness, or rather three starting points, uniting in the market square, followed by a short ecumenical service, the three churches being CofE, Methodist, RC. (The RC community actually worshipped in the Methodist building on Sundays, being an outpost of the next town.)
Then the RCs ceased their Sunday service, so have no representation in the town, then the CofE pulled out, because the Vicar refused to stand alongside Methodist because of their stance on same-sex couples, so now it is just Methodists. They return to their building for a longer service and refreshments. Meanwhile the Vicar has his own church service on Good Friday. Blatant disunity.
A similar situation occurs, then and now, on Remembrance Day: all very bizarre, given that the only memorial is inside the parish church. The British Legion does its stuff in the market square.
No meat generally on Wednesdays or Fridays for the Orthodox. We aren't supposed to have dairy products either but the late Archbishop Gregorios said that any British convert who didn't take milk in tea was a fanatic ...
Good Friday is designated a total fast day for those who are able to observe that but it's not 'policed'.
I like the sound of ++Gregory's
I'd miss celebrating the lesser feast of hot cross buns. I do like the way that specific food marks various festivals.
I tend to think that the idea of Christian unity is a red herring. Disunity is as old as the religion itself, so nothing has really changed very much on that front in 2000 years. I suppose that if one begins with disunity one always holds unity as a hopeful goal. I get the whole standard argument that as a human endeavor the church/faith will always be fraught with difficulties, but on the other hand, I don't think Christianity would be nearly as big as it is today were it not for its inherent disunity. Certainly a kaleidoscopic Christianity has reached more people than it would have as a monochrome.
Good point. The Christian disunity that is schism goes back a long way. And, in a naturalist sense, what you suggest about the spread of Christianity may be so. However...
So, maybe keep the idea of Christian unity centered on Faith, Hope and Love among your respective houses, bearing in mind the old lyric "And they'll know we are Christians by our Love, by our Love -- yes they'll know we are Christians by our Love." Much more important, I'd think, that the rest of the world unite you from without by understanding your Love than you be able to unify yourselves in any way from within, since that will always involve some measure of diminishment.
Well, the OP specified Christian unity, which is a subset of what you're describing, @Eirenist. I'm rather for your view, even to the point of accepting that plenty of people don't believe in any supernatural aspect.
In its own terms, it strikes me that Christian unity is, at root, supernatural. And that the love (for one another) which Christians are exhorted to show is an intentionally visible expression that points towards the non-visible supernatural reality which, amongst other things, enables it.
So, when thinking about a walk of witness (for example), a question that occurs to me is in what ways the natural, tangible, activity points towards the supernatural reality.
From Marianne Budde's sermon: "Unity ... is not conformity. It is not a victory of one over another. It is not weary politeness nor passivity born of exhaustion. Unity is not partisan.
"Rather, unity is a way of being with one another that encompasses and respects differences, that teaches us to hold multiple perspectives and life experiences as valid and worthy of respect; that enables us, in our communities and in the halls of power, to genuinely care for one another even when we disagree".
Bishop Mariann's sermon was nicely triangulated. I note that she was speaking primarily about national unity rather than Christian unity (albeit with some cautious reference to it).
The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity has come and gone, with the usual rather half-hearted *united* service in Our Town. I think about 3 or 4 of Our Place's congregation attended, along with FatherInCharge - there would have been a three-line-whip for the local clergy!
However...to mark Holocaust Memorial Day, and the 80th anniversary of the liberating of Auschwitz, local churches have clubbed together to finance the staging (by a professional company) of the play *The Hiding Place*, based on the life and experiences of the Dutch author Corrie ten Boom in occupied Haarlem, and in a concentration camp.
The play will be performed tomorrow (Sunday) afternoon in a C of E church which has good facilities, and those churches which have contributed £££ have been allotted a small number of free tickets.
This is a good example of sensible non-partisan co-operation, I think.
Comments
There are people in all churches who don't want to darken the doorsteps of a different church building, irrespective of denomination.
It's all down to context. A shared meal in that context sounds entirely appropriate.
Although with bread and wine involved I could see how it might feel uncomfortable for some.
The conference I was thinking of has, as @Ex_Organist observed upthread, a particular remit from its founders about a century ago to provide a platform for attendees to experience one another's mode of worship. Generally speaking, though, apart from now or occasional attendees the regulars all know very well what an RC or Anglo-Catholic Mass looks like, what happens at an Orthodox Liturgy or in Anglican Morning Prayer.
The other thing I had in mind was a joint confab and service at a university chaplaincy, attended mainly by staff. Everyone was getting on great guns and the service went swimmingly until all of a sudden the RCs and Protestants were invited to have their own communion in separate rooms.
This rather put a dampener on things.
It struck me at the time as a very positive exercise and a fruitful ecumenical occasion.
As Father Jack memorably garbled in Father Ted, 'Now that would be an ecumenical matter ...'
Around the same period, at a Baptist church some friends attended across town, the minister invited an RC priest to lead some weekly Lenten meditations. Several older people left the church because of it.
In my experience, American Thanksgiving is the most common time for ecumenical, or perhaps interfaith, services here, and that’s what we used to do. But attendance had slowly dropped off, so after Covid we tried Good Friday instead, and it has worked well.
I might note that the denominations of three of the five churches I mentioned—the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the United Church of Christ—are in full communion with one another. The ELCA is also in full communion with the UMC, and the Disciples of Christ are in full communion with the UCC. The nearby, very progressive Baptist church used to take part in the Thanksgiving service, but they haven’t participated in the Good Friday service so far. I’m not sure why; ecumenical stand-offishness isn’t in their nature.
I might also note that I almost never hear anything about the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity beyond acknowledgment from denominational offices that it’s happening. I don’t see anything on the ground, as it were. By contrast, I regularly see of activities of Church Women United.
This still goes ahead in our town, and is a special time for those who take part - but the ecumenical service beforehand only ran for a couple of years before each church wanted to their own thing again.
I remember a friend in a large northern city telling me how onlookers were laughing when they saw a solemn Anglican Good Friday procession, replete with robes, croziers and a large wooden cross.
Equally, for all the fuss and rah-rah-rah that was made across the evangelical and charismatic spectrum during the large-scale 'March for Jesus' rallies back in the late '80s/early 90s, the public response was often very different to what the organisers claimed.
I remember hearing a well-known and very sensible evangelical charismatic preacher and author reflecting on this at an academic conference. He'd found himself 'trapped' inside a shop for a while as the procession went past, Christians waving banners, singing and declaiming. People in the shop became quite heated and cross. Several of them were delayed returning to their vehicles before their parking tickets expired.
'Bloody Christians! Who do they think they are blocking the streets up on a busy Saturday morning?'
At church the next day the speaker heard 'testimony' after 'testimony' about how wonderful the March for Jesus had been and how marvellous a witness it all was.
I'm not saying we shouldn't process around the streets or go on 'walks of witness' and so on, but let's be realistic about what they can actually achieve.
It features loud (amplified) gospel music, and a sermon, also amplified. I don't know what reaction it gets from the people in the High Street, but I suspect that some of it is akin to that described above by @Gamma Gamaliel.
If the walk of witness is a genuine quiet walk by ordinary people behind a cross to mark the day, taking care to disrupt townsfolk as little as possible, it seems to me that it is likely to be more readily received than one which is aimed at making the people of the town take notice and get out of the way.
Sure, other people of good will often do the same. That doesn’t negate or diminish our witness when we do those things in the name of Jesus and in gratitude for the grace and love shown to us in Jesus.
About the only thing it pays witness to is the sorry state of the local churches.
@Nick Tamen indeed. Bring it on.
Indeed it does
So, maybe keep the idea of Christian unity centered on Faith, Hope and Love among your respective houses, bearing in mind the old lyric "And they'll know we are Christians by our Love, by our Love -- yes they'll know we are Christians by our Love." Much more important, I'd think, that the rest of the world unite you from without by understanding your Love than you be able to unify yourselves in any way from within, since that will always involve some measure of diminishment.
Yes, we do. We stop outside each church on the way for a short prayer, and finish up with bacon rolls, tea and coffee in a church hall. I don't think it functions particularly well as a witness to non-Christians, but it's a convivial get together for the different churches (Roman Catholic / Episcopalian / Presbyterian / Evangelical)
Indeed.
Mind you, there are those at Our Place who would jib at eating bacon on Good Friday - I was told that abstaining from meat on any Friday was a way of honouring Our Lord's sufferings, so presumably eating meat on the day of the Crucifixion is even more of a no-no.
They still rush into the Hall after the Good Friday liturgy, though, in order to devour the Hot Cross Buns on offer...
Good Friday is designated a total fast day for those who are able to observe that but it's not 'policed'.
I remember once an Italian evening which was held in a Catholic Secondary school in Edinburgh. Various Italian culinary specialists came along with samples of their delicacies.
It was a lovely evening but the school authorities seemed to have forgotten that it was,by chance, being held on Ash Wednesday - a day of Fast and Abstinence.
Equally as with the Orthodox there is no one who can 'police' who eats what or why.
Anyway, people over 65 are exempt from fasting and abstinence.
Then the RCs ceased their Sunday service, so have no representation in the town, then the CofE pulled out, because the Vicar refused to stand alongside Methodist because of their stance on same-sex couples, so now it is just Methodists. They return to their building for a longer service and refreshments. Meanwhile the Vicar has his own church service on Good Friday. Blatant disunity.
A similar situation occurs, then and now, on Remembrance Day: all very bizarre, given that the only memorial is inside the parish church. The British Legion does its stuff in the market square.
It has often tickled me the number of Christian events which involve wolfing down food (bacon generally) our lord would never have been able to eat.
I like the sound of ++Gregory's
I'd miss celebrating the lesser feast of hot cross buns. I do like the way that specific food marks various festivals.
So, when thinking about a walk of witness (for example), a question that occurs to me is in what ways the natural, tangible, activity points towards the supernatural reality.
"Rather, unity is a way of being with one another that encompasses and respects differences, that teaches us to hold multiple perspectives and life experiences as valid and worthy of respect; that enables us, in our communities and in the halls of power, to genuinely care for one another even when we disagree".
However...to mark Holocaust Memorial Day, and the 80th anniversary of the liberating of Auschwitz, local churches have clubbed together to finance the staging (by a professional company) of the play *The Hiding Place*, based on the life and experiences of the Dutch author Corrie ten Boom in occupied Haarlem, and in a concentration camp.
The play will be performed tomorrow (Sunday) afternoon in a C of E church which has good facilities, and those churches which have contributed £££ have been allotted a small number of free tickets.
This is a good example of sensible non-partisan co-operation, I think.