How to cope with the possibility of Hell
stonespring
Shipmate
in Epiphanies
If you are absolutely convinced that Hell doesn’t exist, then this thread may not seem to have much of a point.
But if you think it at least might exist, and that it might be eternal and inescapable as traditionally thought, how do you cope with that possibility?
I know that part of this is a mental health issue for me, but I have had to deal with the existential terror of the possibility of Hell for me or anyone else since childhood, when my mother taught me that she DIDN’T think it existed. Just the thought that other people thought it existed and that my mother might be wrong and they might be right helped make me a very anxious, very depressed child.
Upon adolescence, I convinced myself that there couldn’t possibly be a Hell, and believed in my mother’s idea of reincarnation, or at least an afterlife not unlike this life even if maybe not in this world. But upon adulthood, I began to rebel against my parents and some of the clearly wrong things they believed (which are not worth going into). So I had to face the possibility that Hell might exist again.
Even if I think that God is so merciful that He is likely to give me the benefit of the doubt if I try earnestly to pursue truth and goodness in my life, there remains the possibility that other souls are in Hell or may go there and that is enough to keep me up at night. I don’t think anyone I love is in Hell or likely to go there. But even the thought that Hitler or someone else who did the most evil things in history might be there makes me so upset that it is hard to function sometimes. Even the thought that the Devil is in Hell makes me despondent. I try to tell myself that the Devil doesn’t have a body so it’s hard to imagine what the experience of Hell might be for an angel, but it is still extremely upsetting.
Arguments that Hell doesn’t exist or that maybe God can release people from Hell don’t help me, because awareness of the possibility is enough to paralyze me.
I don’t want reassurance that He’ll doesn’t exist then. I just wonder, for people who maybe don’t experience this as a matter of mental health, how do you cope with the thought of the possibility of Hell, even if you think it is unlikely?
But if you think it at least might exist, and that it might be eternal and inescapable as traditionally thought, how do you cope with that possibility?
I know that part of this is a mental health issue for me, but I have had to deal with the existential terror of the possibility of Hell for me or anyone else since childhood, when my mother taught me that she DIDN’T think it existed. Just the thought that other people thought it existed and that my mother might be wrong and they might be right helped make me a very anxious, very depressed child.
Upon adolescence, I convinced myself that there couldn’t possibly be a Hell, and believed in my mother’s idea of reincarnation, or at least an afterlife not unlike this life even if maybe not in this world. But upon adulthood, I began to rebel against my parents and some of the clearly wrong things they believed (which are not worth going into). So I had to face the possibility that Hell might exist again.
Even if I think that God is so merciful that He is likely to give me the benefit of the doubt if I try earnestly to pursue truth and goodness in my life, there remains the possibility that other souls are in Hell or may go there and that is enough to keep me up at night. I don’t think anyone I love is in Hell or likely to go there. But even the thought that Hitler or someone else who did the most evil things in history might be there makes me so upset that it is hard to function sometimes. Even the thought that the Devil is in Hell makes me despondent. I try to tell myself that the Devil doesn’t have a body so it’s hard to imagine what the experience of Hell might be for an angel, but it is still extremely upsetting.
Arguments that Hell doesn’t exist or that maybe God can release people from Hell don’t help me, because awareness of the possibility is enough to paralyze me.
I don’t want reassurance that He’ll doesn’t exist then. I just wonder, for people who maybe don’t experience this as a matter of mental health, how do you cope with the thought of the possibility of Hell, even if you think it is unlikely?
Comments
but I'm losing the point. The main point is that we have a God who goes to the very limit to rescue human beings from ruin, and who has very carefully refrained from saying outright, "There are some people in hell." When Jesus talks all around a subject but refrains from saying something outright, you have to look very, very carefully, because there's generally information there... and my hope in this case is that it's good news, and that in fact nobody ends up there in the end.
Regarding Hell, first look at the development of the concept. In the Old Testament, the place of the dead was Sheol. It was considered a dark, dank place, were the shadows of the formally living dwelt. There was really no judgement involved in it, it was where everyone went.
The Greeks came up with the concept of Hades which is a realm ruled by the god of the underworld by the same name. When people died they crossed the Styx and remained there. Very few returned from that realm.
In the New Testament, there is really no word for Hell. There is the word: gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnom", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed.[ Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.
For most of the time of the church, it was taught that hell was the place where people found themselves completely cut off from God.
The modern concept of hell, a place of fire, burning, and punishment, comes from Dante's Divine Comedy
In the second article of the Apostle's creed, some Christians confess, that when Jesus died he went to the dead (some versions of the creed say he descended into hell). In saying that, we affirm first that Jesus really did die, and second he really went to Hades, but we also affirm he proclaimed liberty even to all who were in hell.
I believe in Hell, but it is empty. Jesus broke open its gates.
But what about those who were pure evil? The Revelation of John tells us all evil will eventually be thrown into a fiery lake where it will perish, and eventually there will be a time when God will establish a new kingdom on earth where there will be no more tears, no more pain.
Now, if you are baptized, you have nothing to fear. You are already a part of that kingdom. Death has no power over you. Hell is a vacant place, nothing will separate you from the love of God.
The best way to counter the fear of damnation is to get involved in a local Christian community. They will be there to help support you. Myself, I would avoid the hell fire and damnation type groups. What you need is a good shot of the Gospel. (I found that in my reading of Romans.)
(Understand, this is just a quick overview of how the concept of hell developed in Judaism, and Christianity. Other religions have their own understanding of the place of the dead. I cannot even begin to discuss them).
Peace be with you.
How does getting involved in a local Christian community assuage fear of Hell for other people you know and love?
It seems terribly self-absorbed to only be bothered about Hell because you think you might go there.
As I’ve said before (almost always, I think, with a nod to Karl Barth), we can’t claim that hell must be empty, but we have every reason to hope that it is empty.
I think I already answered that when I said the local Christian community can support a person as they struggle with such questions.
I have seldom found local Christian communities particularly supportive in anything. Sorry, just the way it is. But delving into the reasons for that would totally derail the thread.
The more you consider it, and its role in Christian theology, the more batshit the concept of Hell seems.
As to how we're supposed to understand the descriptions, in relation to the Divine Comedy (as mentioned above):
Then I will move that subject over to Purgatory.
So, I'm moving this thread over. Please be aware of the guidelines for Epiphanies.
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
As was Jonathan Edwards with his terrifying sermon, 'Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God.'
We can't elide the biblical material either and this can be pretty scary - as in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.
All that said, I don't think it's a cop-out to agree with Barth, the late Metropolitan Ware and our very own @Lamb Chopped and @Nick Tamen on this one - and I think it's possible to agree with them without being either Lutheran or Reformed as some things span all major Christian traditions of course.
On a visit to the monastery at Tolleshunt Knights in Essex I was struck by how Elder - now Saint - Sophrony arranged for a depiction of judgemental weighing scales wielded by a demon to be tilted in favour of mercy rather than condemnation.
I've heard Metropolitan Kallistos say that whilst we can't say that Hell is empty, we may hope it is.
I don't see it in literal fire and brimstone terms more of a case of us being left to stew in our own juice, but there are a range of perspectives of course.
And hope has a dark side, as Psychology Today points out in 7 Downsides of Hope:
I'll go you one shorter, @Nick Tamen, and shave things down to "we can't claim that hell is...
As a child I remember being well and truly terrified at the prospect of hell, and genuinely anguishing over the deaths of older family members my parents didn't believe were 'saved.' I still remember stacks of Jack Chick tracts being handed out at various church events. What a horrid perversion to terrify kids with.
It is still sad and painful that anyone would ultimately choose against love, but I can sadly see how that can be.
If you mean you can't see how someone would choose against love, that might be a good sign for you. *hugs* But that's between you and God.
I believe that God would gladly redeem and forgive not only our worst "famous bad guys" from history that are usually imagined in Hell (and, for all we know, may have in various cases--we will find out...), but even Satan himself, if he would only open up to love.
I don't believe I can point to any specific person in history or now who will definitely be in that category. I hope (and literally pray) for every given person, even the worst, even the ones who have done me harm, even the figures from history who have been considered the worst people to have ever lived. But I believe that that is ultimately what the state of those who are in Hell is/will be, yes. And not just those who have, past tense, chosen against love (which can be forgiven), but those who would permanently, everlastingly, repeatedly forever, do so.
“Saved” carries a lot of baggage, I think. It’s not a word I generally use, at least not without some care, and I think that’s generally true in my denomination. We don’t really talk about “being saved” or “getting saved” or “saving others.”
I sometimes think I’m an anomaly on the Ship, or at least in a minority, not having been subjected to that kind of stuff as a child.
It's implicit in Evangelical Christianity. The TL;DR version is "we're all sinners, the punishment for sin is death, God is just and must enact the penalty, Jesus died as a substitute, Justice is satisfied, if we accept that through faith we go to heaven, otherwise we pay the penalty ourselves and go to hell"
If you've not had that inflicted on you you're a lucky man.
A load of utter Tosh. I'm afraid he helped me to stop accepting such Tosh, though, and I now see myself as an agnostic who nevertheless still delights in well-ordered liturgy and music.
And because Christ posits a theology of mercy and grace, I find it hard to believe in such a God, though looking at the world, I can see why some folks find the concept of Hell appealing for certain offenders.
Purgatory is a more amenable concept, I think, because it makes more sense with hope. Of course, that has a funny relationship with the resurrection...I guess the idea is that all of these are supposed to be waiting rooms of a sort.
Oh, I've heard people talk about it almost like Jesus twisting God's smiting arm behind his back with the cross while we slip into heaven.
It's usually put as "when God looks at you he sees Jesus instead of you" - I dunno, that doesn't sound like love. It sounds more like some tax loophole that HMRC haven't managed to close up yet.
Much as I'm not a great C S Lewis fan (and nor do I believe in a literal Devil) if anyone has their arm twisted by the cross while we slip in on a technicality its Old Nick.
Purgatory is something I find necessary for Universalism not to descend into cheap grace or minimise evil. More of a state than a place. Heaven with training wheels?
That kind of jujitsu salvation also makes life on earth seriously nihilistic, which would seem to undermine everything Jesus said in the gospel like "do this or else you go to the fiery rubbish pit!"
He didn't say "or I'll go the fiery rubbish pit and take the heat on your behalf so you get to sneak past my father's anger management issues."
There seems to be a confusion between the Gospels and the Epistles here, one which has been worked over so many times over the centuries.
There's a kind of negative energy version of this I've come across in Reformed circles; where people seem to take delight in describing God in ever more stark terms. I think it's a result of trying to think of God outside the way in which he reveals himself.
Point, though he does talk about salvation, no?
I think for some folks, there's an implication that if you're saved, then you must be saved from...something, right? And a lot of Christians assume that must mean Hell. This may be an error on their part.
That said, yes, that's an excellent observation if true, and unless someone corrects I think that it is.
Yes to all of this, except I’m not clear on purgatory. I mean, i get your point, I’m just not sure on whether purgatory exists or not. I have always figured there’s an orientation period, though whether it’s a formal program i don’t know.
I’m very certain that God sees me and there is no sleight of hand or sneaking into heaven, gah!!!! What a sucky universe that would be, always worrying the disguise might slip and God actually get a look at what I’m really like. No, i think that way of explaining things causes more problems than it solves.
I've come across that too, but fully accept @Nick Tamen's 'testimony' ('Can I get a witness?') that this doesn't apply to Reformed circles as a whole. I can't imagine it happening in most URC churches here for instance or most Church of Scotland congregations.
Reformed Baptists and independent Reformed congregations most certainly...
The former YRR and smaller Reformed and Presbyterian denominations too.
Re “orientation period,” I’m suddenly reminded of the waiting room scene in The Good Place…
No spoilers, but the worrying about the disguise slipping is also an early plot point of The Good Place. I never finished it but it’s a good and funny show, at least early on. (Not a fan of how I’ve read it ends, though.)
A streaming show about a fictional afterlife, I think. Multiple people told me I'd enjoy it, but I never got around to watching.
I tend to think of “salvation” in terms of healing rather than, shall we say, destination. To be “saved” is more about being made whole and rescued from death and the “sickness” of sinfulness than it is about which door you go through right after you die. I think that’s a very scriptural way to view it.
Generally, works for me. Of course, that has other implications for the notion of Hell.
Or Four Yorkshiremen?
Yes, exactly. Not sure where it is currently streaming. It’s worth a watch, or at least I can vouch for it up through where I left off. It’s also very funny…
Two responses come to mind:
1.) Tempt me with a good time… 😛
2.) Jokes aside, how do you mean? In this concept, the person still has free will, whether they use it to choose God and love and others, or just to serve themselves.
I've watched the whole of it. Yes its bizarre and unpredictable, but actually a great series. Think it was on Netflix