Why does that matter? I can tell you what it looks like compared to what my natural self would do. But then, i assume you could figure that out yourself, and it wouldn’t be pretty.
Without the influence of God in my life, I have a fairly good idea of what kind of person I'd be--assuming first of all that I'd be alive, which is doubtful, as I was suicidal when he came to me. But leaving that aside.
If I made it to adulthood--
I'd almost certainly be outwardly respectable, but inwardly consumed by resentment, anger, and grudges against other people. I'd have very rigid boundaries on who "deserved" my care and service, and I'd be super judgemental (without realizing that fact!) of people who didn't fit into that category. You'd probably find me among the people who look down their noses at so-called "welfare queens" and people whose personal lives are fucked up by sex, drugs, etc.
I doubt I'd be in the church--I don't think I'd do that sort of hypocrisy well--but I'd be either agnostic or atheist, and proud of it. I mean the kind of person that rubs that in other people's faces, not normal agnostics/atheists. I have a tendency to be argumentative, and in the absence of Christ, I'd be super obnoxious.
I'd also be super defensive, and take everything personally--and you can see what a poisonous combo that would be with a person who holds lifelong grudges! I would have absolutely shitty self-esteem combined with arrogance--the latter would probably mask the former in public, it often does. I'd be ambitious--God knows I'd be ambitious! and while fastidiousness would probably keep me out of Trump's administration, it wouldn't stop me from seeking power in other ways. And I would. And I'd probably get it, because I have the intelligence and rhetorical skill--and ability to read people--that would make me a damn good manipulator, without the Lord stopping me.
In short, I'd be a respectable, probably powerful asshole. If I ever found someone to marry who would put up with me, I'd have a high chance of fucking up my family by handing on the emotional abuse I suffered in childhood. I would live as a person never content or happy with my current state, and I would die wondering what the point of the world was, anyway.
Trust me, you wouldn't like me at all. This is all first-level extrapolations from what I was like before Christ came to me. He's done a lot of remodeling on me, but I'm sure you can trace the tracks of my faults even now, since he's not done with me.
Oh, and I have no idea what the average Christian would be like. I only know my own mind and heart.
I don't recollect Jesus as saying anything about going to church. But I have not come across the New Living Translation. We use theNRSV at our place.
NRSV 4 Life! Accept nothing less! That said, I think that passage is pretty straightforward even in Greek, though you can probably have fun with semantic range and cultural drift, like so:
I think love and hate are relative terms and the passage is setting priorities. And he says that you have to be able to commit fully to the love of God, which may overrule the love of family.
In a lot of traditional cultures, the biological father's authority is so overwhelming that to even so much as question him is dangerous. In ancient Rome, so I've read, the paterfamilias had life-or-death power over his children as long as he lived. Having seen some families like that, and the painfully dysfunctional things that can happen inside of "traditional family structure," I tend to find that passage quite refreshing.
In fact, I might posit that by re-yoking God's authority to paterfamilias, JD Vance is intensifying and normalizing male head-of-household abuse and denying people the welcome outlet provided by God (at least as I understand God.)
Heck, I could go even farther and observe that the confusion of "natural" biological ties with "social" ones leads to racism as people say "well, black people are one family and white people are another family and we need to take care of our people first." Credit a tiktok I saw this morning for that thought. It was a very insightful tiktok about the Irish experience in America.
Wanna see where that goes? Just look at the news.
That said, of course, this can itself be taken into error, so I must add a disclaimer...
I do understand that this kind of freedom can also lead to a cult-like atmosphere where a religious leader or church can confuse itself with God, turning their own organization into an ultimate good, reducing members to serfs under the lordship of whoever-is-in-charge at the time. To say God is more important than family is not to say that family is not important. It just needs to exist in its own space. To be deemed not-ultimate is no insult.
I think, for me, this is why it is important to keep in mind that God is God, God is not the Church. God is not the preacher. Heck, at some point, that might be a case for the Trinity. God cannot even be reduced to a single person. But that may be another thread.
Without the influence of [the idea of] God in my life, I have a fairly good idea of what kind of person I'd be--assuming first of all that I'd be alive, which is doubtful, as I was suicidal when he came to me. But leaving that aside.
If I made it to adulthood--
I'd almost certainly be outwardly respectable, but inwardly consumed by resentment, anger, and grudges against other people. I'd have very rigid boundaries on who "deserved" my care and service, and I'd be super judgemental (without realizing that fact!) of people who didn't fit into that category. You'd probably find me among the people who look down their noses at so-called "welfare queens" and people whose personal lives are fucked up by sex, drugs, etc.
I doubt I'd be in the church--I don't think I'd do that sort of hypocrisy well--but I'd be either agnostic or atheist, and proud of it. I mean the kind of person that rubs that in other people's faces, not normal agnostics/atheists. I have a tendency to be argumentative, and in the absence of Christ, I'd be super obnoxious.
I'd also be super defensive, and take everything personally--and you can see what a poisonous combo that would be with a person who holds lifelong grudges! I would have absolutely shitty self-esteem combined with arrogance--the latter would probably mask the former in public, it often does. I'd be ambitious--God knows I'd be ambitious! and while fastidiousness would probably keep me out of Trump's administration, it wouldn't stop me from seeking power in other ways. And I would. And I'd probably get it, because I have the intelligence and rhetorical skill--and ability to read people--that would make me a damn good manipulator, without the Lord stopping me.
In short, I'd be a respectable, probably powerful asshole. If I ever found someone to marry who would put up with me, I'd have a high chance of fucking up my family by handing on the emotional abuse I suffered in childhood. I would live as a person never content or happy with my current state, and I would die wondering what the point of the world was, anyway.
Trust me, you wouldn't like me at all. This is all first-level extrapolations from what I was like before [the idea of] Christ came to me. {"}He's{"} done a lot of remodeling on me [through my projection of my idealized self], but I'm sure you can trace the tracks of my faults even now, since ["]he's["] not done with me.
Oh, and I have no idea what the average Christian would be like. I only know my own mind and heart.
A pity you’re that imprisoned. Why not accept that what i say is in fact the truth as i see it? Instead of editing my statements to make them fit with your predetermined world view.
A pity you’re that imprisoned. Why not accept that what i say is in fact the truth as i see it? Instead of editing my statements to make them fit with your predetermined world view.
What am I imprisoned by? I do accept that what you say is in fact the truth as you see it. Why would I not? I edited them to fit with the rational world view. Independent of either of us.
Than what? You know I couldn't rate you, as a 100% human only person, higher. From a humanist POV, you do yourself and humanity down. We're as good as it gets. And as bad. Just us.
The horror is, that there is no amelioration for all the unspeakable evil; nothing, no one, No One, makes it right in a hereafter.
I don't know any better at all. That's all I know. And I can not believe beyond that.
You need to project an idealized self to be the exceptional person that you are? That doesn't surprise me. Nothing I say can touch that. On the contrary. Twice. I defend your magnificent, flawed humanity and you have to push back.
I am far more aware of my flaws than you will ever be this side of heaven. Please don't defend them by changing my self-description. Especially please don't do it by taking the credit I give to the Lord and trying to dump it back at my own feet.
@Martin54, you have been here long enough to know that we interpret someone including a section of text headed "XXX wrote:" which is then edited so the words in that section are no longer what XXX wrote to be a personal attack. Your post is part of an exchange that's got increasingly personal and unsuitable for Purgatory.
@Martin54, we're going to restart the "three strikes", if three posts incur a reprimand from a host you will be given a period of shore leave that will be longer than the last time. This counts as your first strike.
And, for everyone else. We've had two posts from a host asking for people to remain on topic. I see no point in a third such warning, and conclude that everyone has finished discussing Ordo Amoris and JD Vance at present. So, I'm also going to close this thread.
Comments
What does that look like compared with non-Christians? Especially over the past 2,000 years over the entire planet, starting with the Roman Empire?
Without the influence of God in my life, I have a fairly good idea of what kind of person I'd be--assuming first of all that I'd be alive, which is doubtful, as I was suicidal when he came to me. But leaving that aside.
If I made it to adulthood--
I'd almost certainly be outwardly respectable, but inwardly consumed by resentment, anger, and grudges against other people. I'd have very rigid boundaries on who "deserved" my care and service, and I'd be super judgemental (without realizing that fact!) of people who didn't fit into that category. You'd probably find me among the people who look down their noses at so-called "welfare queens" and people whose personal lives are fucked up by sex, drugs, etc.
I doubt I'd be in the church--I don't think I'd do that sort of hypocrisy well--but I'd be either agnostic or atheist, and proud of it. I mean the kind of person that rubs that in other people's faces, not normal agnostics/atheists. I have a tendency to be argumentative, and in the absence of Christ, I'd be super obnoxious.
I'd also be super defensive, and take everything personally--and you can see what a poisonous combo that would be with a person who holds lifelong grudges! I would have absolutely shitty self-esteem combined with arrogance--the latter would probably mask the former in public, it often does. I'd be ambitious--God knows I'd be ambitious! and while fastidiousness would probably keep me out of Trump's administration, it wouldn't stop me from seeking power in other ways. And I would. And I'd probably get it, because I have the intelligence and rhetorical skill--and ability to read people--that would make me a damn good manipulator, without the Lord stopping me.
In short, I'd be a respectable, probably powerful asshole. If I ever found someone to marry who would put up with me, I'd have a high chance of fucking up my family by handing on the emotional abuse I suffered in childhood. I would live as a person never content or happy with my current state, and I would die wondering what the point of the world was, anyway.
Trust me, you wouldn't like me at all. This is all first-level extrapolations from what I was like before Christ came to me. He's done a lot of remodeling on me, but I'm sure you can trace the tracks of my faults even now, since he's not done with me.
Oh, and I have no idea what the average Christian would be like. I only know my own mind and heart.
NRSV 4 Life! Accept nothing less! That said, I think that passage is pretty straightforward even in Greek, though you can probably have fun with semantic range and cultural drift, like so:
I think love and hate are relative terms and the passage is setting priorities. And he says that you have to be able to commit fully to the love of God, which may overrule the love of family.
In a lot of traditional cultures, the biological father's authority is so overwhelming that to even so much as question him is dangerous. In ancient Rome, so I've read, the paterfamilias had life-or-death power over his children as long as he lived. Having seen some families like that, and the painfully dysfunctional things that can happen inside of "traditional family structure," I tend to find that passage quite refreshing.
In fact, I might posit that by re-yoking God's authority to paterfamilias, JD Vance is intensifying and normalizing male head-of-household abuse and denying people the welcome outlet provided by God (at least as I understand God.)
Heck, I could go even farther and observe that the confusion of "natural" biological ties with "social" ones leads to racism as people say "well, black people are one family and white people are another family and we need to take care of our people first." Credit a tiktok I saw this morning for that thought. It was a very insightful tiktok about the Irish experience in America.
Wanna see where that goes? Just look at the news.
That said, of course, this can itself be taken into error, so I must add a disclaimer...
I do understand that this kind of freedom can also lead to a cult-like atmosphere where a religious leader or church can confuse itself with God, turning their own organization into an ultimate good, reducing members to serfs under the lordship of whoever-is-in-charge at the time. To say God is more important than family is not to say that family is not important. It just needs to exist in its own space. To be deemed not-ultimate is no insult.
I think, for me, this is why it is important to keep in mind that God is God, God is not the Church. God is not the preacher. Heck, at some point, that might be a case for the Trinity. God cannot even be reduced to a single person. But that may be another thread.
Edits @Martin54
What am I imprisoned by? I do accept that what you say is in fact the truth as you see it. Why would I not? I edited them to fit with the rational world view. Independent of either of us.
Than what? You know I couldn't rate you, as a 100% human only person, higher. From a humanist POV, you do yourself and humanity down. We're as good as it gets. And as bad. Just us.
The horror is, that there is no amelioration for all the unspeakable evil; nothing, no one, No One, makes it right in a hereafter.
I don't know any better at all. That's all I know. And I can not believe beyond that.
You need to project an idealized self to be the exceptional person that you are? That doesn't surprise me. Nothing I say can touch that. On the contrary. Twice. I defend your magnificent, flawed humanity and you have to push back.
@Martin54, we're going to restart the "three strikes", if three posts incur a reprimand from a host you will be given a period of shore leave that will be longer than the last time. This counts as your first strike.
And, for everyone else. We've had two posts from a host asking for people to remain on topic. I see no point in a third such warning, and conclude that everyone has finished discussing Ordo Amoris and JD Vance at present. So, I'm also going to close this thread.
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin