Which is more supportive: a Christian community or a therapeutic group.

Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
edited February 2 in Purgatory
In a thread where the OP expressed fear of hell, I suggested the poster might want to find a Christian community for support. KarlB countered he found Christian communities unhelpful (Correct me if I am wrong, @KarlLB). He did not want to derail that thread though, but I thought it a good topic to discuss here.

If you have ever struggled with mental health or a spiritual concern where have you found the best help?

Myself, I often find I am in a faith crisis during the winter months. I found during the winter I suffer from seasonal affective disorder and my spiritual crisis are very much related to my mental health at the time. I have gone both ways in seeking help. I will generally find better support among my Christian community than a therapeutic group.

Both Christian communities and therapeutic groups can be supportive, but they have different approaches. Faith communities provide a network of care that extends beyond the therapy room. Group therapy, led by a trained therapist, involves a small number of people facing similar emotional challenges, fostering a supportive, non-judgmental space where participants can share their experiences and gain insight from others.

To me, they both have a place, but if I should express a faith concern, the Christian community generally knows where that is coming from. On the other hand, a therapeutic group may not have the shared spiritual background I have which can be good but it also can be bad.

Where do you go when you need help?

Comments

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 2
    A few years ago I suffered with clinical depression for some time, and was on prescribed anti-depressant medication (which helped).

    One day, I told Our Place's Father Fuckwit that I had missed a couple of services, on account of the depression being worse (for reasons not unconnected with another person at church). He did not understand what I meant, so I was told that A True Christian™ should never be depressed.

    Not all that much later, I was diagnosed with a brain tumour, and received no support whatever from Father Fuckwit. Three friends (one of whom is now a priest herself) rallied round, and formed a spiritual and practical support team for me. The only other expressions of concern I received from within the wider church were from the Archdeacon and the Warden of Readers.

    I no longer turn to the church for help, but I belong to an organisation which supports those who have suffered brain surgery and its subsequent problems. Oddly enough, the most helpful thing I do at present is to go to a weekly Pilates session...
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    With Church communities IME it's not that they don't want to be supportive - but they don't know how to be, when the individual concerned is so Not Like Them.

    Most churchgoers in the UK are elderly, middle class women, with very conventional lives and outlooks. They don't really get middle aged or younger, geeky, neurodivergent male computer systems admins. They don't want to be unfriendly but we have so few points of contact. I can't build friendships over conversation when we have nothing to converse about. That is what I suppose small talk is meant to cover but I'm absolutely terrible at it. People have the people they know and connect with and that's going to tend to be people more like them.

    I don't therefore tend to get to the point of relationship in church groups where I could start to feel "supported".
  • I found therapy helped me a lot with emotional stuff such as depression. Groups not so much. I haven't found churches much help, except that the liturgies are, more than the people. But that's not their fault, they aren't trained for that.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 2
    @KarlLB makes a valid point, although Our Place does have a rather more mixed bag of Faithful (ethnically and age-wise) than many churches.

    It's true that many people have no idea how to deal with people with (as in my case) clinical depression, and/or major trauma. This, I agree, is hardly their fault, though, as @quetzalcoatl says.

    The liturgy (a form of therapy, maybe?) helped me to carry on, though I left Our Place entirely for over a year, until the egregious Father F retired.

  • It is possible for a Christian community to be supportive but (for me at least) the absolute condition for this is that the members of that community are there to receive as well as give support. The supported/supportive dichotomy is completely unrealistic in human experience - we are nearly all both nearly all the time, but it's a pathology of many communities. Love your neighbour as you love yourself implies an equality of esteem - and indeed support - which is essential. Insisting on always putting other people before yourself and withdrawing your need from the community is as pathological as always claiming support, because it unbalances what needs to be balanced in order to work.
  • TwangistTwangist Shipmate
    It is possible for a Christian community to be supportive but (for me at least) the absolute condition for this is that the members of that community are there to receive as well as give support. The supported/supportive dichotomy is completely unrealistic in human experience - we are nearly all both nearly all the time, but it's a pathology of many communities. Love your neighbour as you love yourself implies an equality of esteem - and indeed support - which is essential. Insisting on always putting other people before yourself and withdrawing your need from the community is as pathological as always claiming support, because it unbalances what needs to be balanced in order to work.

    Very good point.
    I think something of this was expressed when I heard someone say (regarding a church I'm not connected to) that they didn't want to be "a family the church works with but rather friends"
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    My experience has been that Christians from some traditions are wary of coming to therapy because they have been led to believe we will try to undermine their faith in some way. That is certainly not the case in the NHS, I have coworked cases with chaplains from both Christian & Muslim traditions.

    Nothing works for everybody, and not everyone will find therapy helpful - group or individual, of whatever kind - but it shouldn’t be because they are being asked to choose between their faith and their recovery.
  • I did have an earlier spell of depression, at a time when I was not going to church at all (some years pre-Father F!).

    My team manager was concerned for me, and arranged for me to see a counsellor paid for by the NHS. This was very welcome, and helped me through a difficult period. Faith - or lack of it - didn't come into it.
  • I think it very much depends on the circumstances and the nature of the issue for which we require support.

    If we require specialist help then it's best to seek specialist help.

    To be honest, I didn't find my then parish church at all supportive or helpful when my wife died, but then I was pretty estranged from it by that point. Not that they didn't care. They just didn't know how to deal with it. Fortunately, friends in other settings, both Christian and non-Christian were more helpful but I pretty much had to muddle through just my daughters and myself.

    There is a balance somewhere. Some of the more closely-knit forms of fellowship can be pretty claustrophobic.

    A relative who is in 'recovery' from alcohol issues says that the group where he finds support are pretty critical of most faith-based approaches other than that of the Salvation Army. They think the SA have particular expertise that other churches lack.

    Overall, I think it comes down to particular individual circumstances. No one size fits all.

    @KarlLB yes, I can see the demographic you describe as pretty typical of most Anglican, Methodist and other mainstream churches here in the UK. I help edit an ecumenical magazine and you've pretty much described our readership.

    The only way around that, I think, is to attend either some kind of ethnically-defined church or a yoof-oriented or family-oriented evangelical charismatic church. Neither option is likely to appeal.

    My Orthodox parish is very ethnically diverse and with a wide age range, but it's in a city with large migrant population. And not everyone can cope with the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom and the stuff we get up to.
  • IMHO the answer is going to vary because needs vary, and so do Christian congregations. I'm in professional counseling right now to deal with the aftereffects of child abuse, and that's the right place for it. My congregation offered me Stephen Ministry when my parent died (a form of lay listening care which is trained but not up to pathological crap). I had to decline, because PTSD etc. is precisely NOT what you want to have non-professionals dealing with. On the other hand, if it had been a simple case of ordinary grief (to the extent that any grief is ordinary) that might have been really helpful.
  • The question 'who do you go to for help?' is perhaps more useful. If I'm in a position of needing a certain kind of help then I know I need to go to a specific person/group of people for a specific kind of assistance. But for maintaining ongoing, long-term spiritual health, I personally have a spiritual director (a Christian) who I see regularly; and who also has clinical counselling training so faith issues can be addressed here, though I feel no pressure to 'be' spiritual, if you know what I mean. And the Diocese has a system of providing Pastoral Supervision, too, which is about providing outside perspective on church issues, and perhaps ascertaining if other kinds of professional help need to be introduced. In the past, I've had a spiritual director who was an NHS medical professional; and another who was a clinical psychiatric nurse.

    If I had a specific problem that I thought a non-religious counsellor could help with I would certainly consider it, as I would should I need any other kind of medical specialist. Cognitive behavioural or talking therapies, eg, can be very successful. And I have no problem encouraging church-members to follow up on a doctor's or friend's recommendations to meet with such professionals.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    yoof-oriented or family-oriented evangelical charismatic church.

    I am nowhere near needing support enough to do that.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited February 2
    I've been in two therapeutic support groups: one was cold and distant, the other was warm and friendly. Some churches I've been in were supportive; one was supportive right up to the moment that it wasn't, then it became cold and downright abusive. But I'll say this: while structure matters some, how supportive some group is has almost entirely to do with the people you interact with the most. If they are cold or standoffish, it won't seem like a good place to be, and it won't help you in terms of growth. If they are warm and engaging, it will. And that seems the same independent of the context of the group (religious or secular).
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    In my experience, they provide different kinds of help and it's dangerous to confuse the two.

    I was just talking to someone at work who got mad because there's an impromptu mass-lite at my job for the guys we take care of, and after something or other the presider (no communion, not sure he's a priest or a deacon or anything) asked generally if anyone had anything they wanted to talk about, and she felt like it created a really awkward situation.

    Personally and professionally, I could understand her take, and why he did that, and I'd agree it was a mistake. I think things like funerals and services can be very helpful, but not at all in the same way as a session of proper therapy.

    And a lot of this varies, as @mousethief pointed out, among therapists and churches.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    If you have ever struggled with mental health or a spiritual concern where have you found the best help?
    I would take a spiritual concern to my spiritual director, mental health issues to a counsellor or doctor. A trained counsellor. Mr Nen and I once saw an untrained "counsellor" together (his initiative) and I'm still dealing with some of the backlash. I've had two periods of counselling in my life, both immensely helpful, if sometimes challenging.

    I've never been part of a therapeutic group and have mixed experience of Christian ones - none of the latter where I've felt able to be completely open about things, but that probably says more about me than anything else.
  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited February 2
    I am uncomfortable with the idea of putting ‘mental health or spiritual concern’ together as if they were the same issue. Obviously the poster experiences them together and I am sympathetic of that (I experience seasonal affective disorder alongside my bipolar disorder so understand how difficult the winter blues can be and why a spiritual crisis might occur). But I have heard too many people suggest people with mental health challenges ‘lack faith’. I have had mental health challenges which require constant daily management for over 25 years but I have never had a spiritual crisis. For some people they might coincide but for most people a mental health crisis is not the same as a spiritual crisis and they require different solutions.
    I consider a supportive church community as wonderful for helping me to cope with daily living and I am glad I am part of such a community. But if I have a mental health crisis I need a professional therapist not a spiritual director or a church group. I wouldn’t want group therapy either as a group of people with psychosis sharing their experiences is an ideal opportunity for abuse. The last mental health crisis I had was about 3 years ago and I had a course of telephone CBT with a trained therapist and it was fabulous.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I am not at all sure that I can or should expect anything specific in the way of support from church other than general friendship and kindness. What kind of support would you hope for?

    For more specific mental or spiritual concerns, I have found professional support very helpful, with some exceptions.

    One recent exception was a bereavement group I attended once and did not return.

    Another was a long time ago, a marriage counsellor who happened to be a priest. I terminated the appointment rapidly.
    On the other hand I benefitted enormously from the support of a nun.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited February 2
    There are three reasons why I tend to favor a Christian community over a secular therapeutic support group in matters of a spiritual concern:

    Spiritual Support: If you're looking for guidance rooted in faith, a Christian community offers spiritual support, prayer, and fellowship with like-minded individuals.

    Sense of Belonging: Many people find a strong sense of belonging and identity within their faith community.

    Moral and Ethical Guidance: Christian communities often provide guidance based on biblical principles and values.

    Granted, there are some very poor groups, like the hell fire and and damnation groups. I advise against them. Then too, there is the concern about a competent leader. Ministers, generally are not trained in therapy, but there might be a nun or a layperson who knows what they are doing. That said, even in secular groups there is the matter of competency. I have known people who are PhDs who should never lead a group.

    Just recently, the synod council president, now retired, that I worked with while I was on synod council found out she has cancer. She is now going through chemotherapy. Her birthday was yesterday. Many of us who were on synod council at the time of her tenure sent greetings and well wishes. I got a note from her today how much that meant to her to receive the notes from former council members.

    You might not have gotten that from a secular therapeutic group.

    I certainly do not want to denigrate secular support groups. I have led them too. Once I was leading a group of chemically dependent people in basic recovery processes of cognitive behavioral therapy. There was one individual who expressed a lot of guilt for what he had done and a fear of damnation. He did say he was a Christian. I usually let people in the group respond to the person using the A, B, C, D, E, and F model, but the responses did not seem to help him. Finally, I told him one thing I learned as a Christian was that God wears glasses. Yep, glasses. On the lens of this glasses, is etched a cross. That way whenever God sees a Christian, God does not see the sinner, but the cross of Christ, That story seemed to ease the persons fear. I felt I could do that because I am trained as a therapist and as a minister. I certainly did not tell him he needed more faith, nor did I tell him he had to believe how I believed. But I gave him another way to look at his guilt.
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    edited February 2
    I am uncomfortable with the idea of putting ‘mental health or spiritual concern’ together as if they were the same issue. Obviously the poster experiences them together and I am sympathetic of that (I experience seasonal affective disorder alongside my bipolar disorder so understand how difficult the winter blues can be and why a spiritual crisis might occur). But I have heard too many people suggest people with mental health challenges ‘lack faith’. I have had mental health challenges which require constant daily management for over 25 years but I have never had a spiritual crisis. For some people they might coincide but for most people a mental health crisis is not the same as a spiritual crisis and they require different solutions.
    I consider a supportive church community as wonderful for helping me to cope with daily living and I am glad I am part of such a community. But if I have a mental health crisis I need a professional therapist not a spiritual director or a church group. I wouldn’t want group therapy either as a group of people with psychosis sharing their experiences is an ideal opportunity for abuse. The last mental health crisis I had was about 3 years ago and I had a course of telephone CBT with a trained therapist and it was fabulous.

    Seconded. And we got this hammered into our heads in seminary.

    Simply put, if you as a pastor run into a case that looks like a mental health problem or a counseling problem, and you're not trained in that particular kind of counseling, you should refer then to an appropriate professional.

    I understood myself to be trained in a sort of mental health "triage," but that meant staying the hell away from doing any serious mental health work because that is not the same thing. And bad things happen when people get those categories confused.
  • Even with spiritual concerns, I wouldn't entrust any random Christian congregation with such things simply because a church is not a trained or guided therapeutic group, except in the very broadest sense. What I mean is this: There are probably individuals in that church who are fully capable of hearing someone out with regard to their spiritual crisis, and making a sensitive and helpful response. There are almost certainly other individuals in that very same church who, through immaturity or ignorance, would give a hugely UN-helpful response. And since nobody is in charge of overseeing the whole group's response to that individual--responses might take place in the narthex, in the lav, in the hallway for all we know!--well, the chances of getting a helpful reply are pretty random. Better to go directly to a person trained and gifted to respond to spiritual crises. A church as a group is not parallel to a therapeutic group because a good therapeutic group has training and guidance that are not normally overseeing the interactions of the church.

    That's not to say that churches can't be very helpful to someone who is suffering from any concern. But the care and support people receive from them is likely to be of the general kind that supports recovery from any suffering. If you need a very specific kind of care, you need a trained individual, or a trained group overseen by a trained individual.
  • Absolutely.

    It's got to be appropriate and there has to be proper training.

    Thereto much well-intentioned Christian amateurism around in matters like this.

    An RC friend visited Mount Athos, the power-house of Orthodox monasticism. When he arrived at the monastery where he was staying the abbot took him to one side.

    'There are monks here he may try to counsel you or give you "wirds" or direction that purport to be from God,' he warned him. 'If that happens, be very careful. Come and see me about it. Some of them have mental health problems and are unhinged.'

    He was very grateful for the heads-up.

    I was impressed by the abbot's advice.

    Just because something has a Christian label on it doesn't mean it's always going to be helpful.
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    It is possible for a Christian community to be supportive but (for me at least) the absolute condition for this is that the members of that community are there to receive as well as give support. The supported/supportive dichotomy is completely unrealistic in human experience - we are nearly all both nearly all the time, but it's a pathology of many communities. Love your neighbour as you love yourself implies an equality of esteem - and indeed support - which is essential. Insisting on always putting other people before yourself and withdrawing your need from the community is as pathological as always claiming support, because it unbalances what needs to be balanced in order to work.

    Preach it!

    I can’t be the only vicar’s kid who grew up with the impression that your job in life is to do everything for everybody all the time…

    As for help and support - if I broke my leg I would expect the hospital to deal with the immediate problem and with getting me back to normal afterwards. My church friends would probably help with visiting, ensuring stuff I couldn’t do was taken care of, maybe bringing round meals when I got home, and certainly praying and encouraging me. But I wouldn’t expect them to have specific medical knowledge.

    Same with mental health issues.
  • Are the categories of "spiritual" and "therapeutic" mutually exclusive?
  • Not necessarily.

    It strikes me that we can run to either of two extremes here, within a faith paradigm, and that is to ignore the 'spiritual' dimension on the one hand or to over-play it on the other until we become so Heavenly minded to be of no earthly use.

    I completely agree with @Gill H and @Lamb Chopped about consulting the experts rather than well-meaning amateurs.

    Things are improving but I can cite examples of both Christian and secular 'voluntourism' for instance that have done more harm than good.

    The same will apply to counselling and therapy. It's all a mine-field - mind-field - and we must tread carefully.
  • In the 70s I was part of an intentional Christian community, to the extent that there were a number of community houses. I now live 150km away from that city, but the bonds are strong and it still provides more support than any Christian congregation I have been with since.

    I have never been part of a therapeutic community.

    In my small town I am part of a few informal communities. One of our number in a small group has MND and is palliative. We have been providing him with support with hospital visits, excursions, finding an assisted living place, taking him to our cafe talk-group when he feels up to it. I am the only Christian in the group.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Mental Health First Aid is a relatively new approach to mental health issues. It is designed to give people the basic understanding of mental health issures, provide initial support and make appropriate referrals. Ministers and lay people can easily get trained in the discipline.

    This would definitely help cover some deficiencies in the supportive care system.
  • Mental health first aiders are a great resource. I know several - I actually went to a mental health talk for online teachers presented by one these evening. But they don’t provide therapeutic support. They promote mental health, proactively reach out to people who may be troubled, provide empathy and signpost to appropriate resources. So they are really beneficial in work places and in other communities such as churches. But they are not a substitute for mental health professionals.
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    In my workplace we decided not to use the ‘Mental Health First Aider’ description as it put people off - they felt it had connotations of being someone who could do the equivalent of CPR! So we went for ‘Mental Health Allies’ instead.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I have taken two MHFA courses and most of my staff has, as well. MHFA Canada has five basic actions with it creating the acronym ALGEE. Assess the risk of suicide and/or other harm. Listen non-judgmentally. Give reassurance and information. Encourage the person to get appropriate professional help. Encourage other supports.
  • I expect this is similar to the Psychological First Aid course I did many years ago.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    I was raped some years ago. Coincidently I was part of a Christian discussion group at the time. The week after it happened I told the group I had been raped . One of the group members was the then Bishop's then wife.

    The Sunday after that she approached me after the Eucharist at the Cathedral to ask how I was feeling, so I told her how angry I was and what I would like to do to the rapist. "So much for Christian forgiveness." she said.

    "Fuck Christian forgiveness," I replied quietly and left the Cathedral.

    I worshipped there for years after, but we never spoke again.

    I also went to a support group for sexual abuse survivors run by a Catholic order of nuns. The leaders had been professionally trained and nobody expected full and instant forgiveness of rapists.
  • Huia wrote: »
    The Sunday after that she approached me after the Eucharist at the Cathedral to ask how I was feeling, so I told her how angry I was and what I would like to do to the rapist. "So much for Christian forgiveness." she said.

    So much for Pastoral/Spiritual care!
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    In the study group she had said that when her husband was enthroned as Bishop she said she resigned from her job as she thought she might be called upon to offer pastoral care, but when no one approached her she returned to work. I wondered whether no one did because they knew she would be so useless at it.
  • That’s Lovely Wives for you😬
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    I feel like the OP is asking: "Which is better for healing: first aid or a hospital?" It really depends on the injury, and the abilities within each.

    Some people in some churches can and do give simple kindness. A sympathetic word, a thoughtful note card or phone call, are examples. Don't get me wrong, simple kindness can be truly helpful when a person is feeling hurt, and it is a valuable service. But it's like first aid - useful for a lot of situations, but not all. Deeper injuries need more focused treatment.

    I wish I were surprised by the casual cruelty inflicted on Huia. Some people are not even capable of simple kindness. Worse, they expect to be the perpetual recipients, and it never occurs to them to be the givers.
  • In Australia the term "wowser" has been used. C J Dennis said it referred to people who saw this world as a gaol, and themselves as the gaolers.

    So some well intentioned people confuse pastoral care with toxic positivity. I have experienced it myself.
  • Huia wrote: »
    I was raped some years ago. Coincidently I was part of a Christian discussion group at the time. The week after it happened I told the group I had been raped . One of the group members was the then Bishop's then wife.

    The Sunday after that she approached me after the Eucharist at the Cathedral to ask how I was feeling, so I told her how angry I was and what I would like to do to the rapist. "So much for Christian forgiveness." she said.

    "Fuck Christian forgiveness," I replied quietly and left the Cathedral.

    I worshipped there for years after, but we never spoke again.

    I also went to a support group for sexual abuse survivors run by a Catholic order of nuns. The leaders had been professionally trained and nobody expected full and instant forgiveness of rapists.

    The woman (bishop's wife) was a cretin. I am running out of patience with whatever agenda it is that requires such bullshit.

    Sorry, church this morning has driven me to drink and I am trying hard to type right. Liberal bullshit has casualties as much as the RW stuff does. Stick with the RC nuns, they know the score.

  • oh dear, I hate to imagine what it must have been like!
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I had depression and OCD (not the cleaning type). The church I was in at the time supported me really well. We had a few Drs so there was some proper knowledge in the church
  • Hugal wrote: »
    I had depression and OCD (not the cleaning type). The church I was in at the time supported me really well. We had a few Drs so there was some proper knowledge in the church

    Yes, it does help to have medical personnel as members of the faith community. The congregation I am a member of has two active physicians, one retired physician, several retired nurses too. There have been times they have been called on to provide emergency care as when someone collapses.
  • I also would like to say this asks us to compare "therapeutic group" with "Christian community". Don't get me wrong, nothing beats proper mental health professionals but "therapeutic group" does not necessarily imply "proper mental health professional" it can be a self help group for those with mental health issues.

    A proper run therapy group by mental health professionals should be a safe space is something different from any religious community. It has a specific mental health agenda, it will often have specific behaviour rules that address clients needs and will be supported by mental health professionals. You then move through groups such as Alcoholic Anonymous, right down to the self help and support groups. At the lower end you are very definitely crossing over with what a congregation may provide and yes can be less regulated and just as dangerous.

    Congregations in general can be good places and can be bad places. We are sinners who are growing into Saints and we are not all in the same place. Some mixes of personality, culture and discipleship are not good for some with mental health issues. The problem is that these combinations can occur in all churches of all sorts of colours.

    What I would notice about Christian communities and therapeutic groups, is therapeutic groups tend to maintain a much harder boundary between the client and provider than Christian communities. This has good sides with clear roles and expectation but so often the client is defined as someone that is provided for. On the other hand in Christian communities quite often the provision is shared between the wider community and the clients, which blurs boundaries but also means that clients get to have responsibility for the outcome.
  • I should add that for many people, groups are not suitable, and individual therapy or counselling is better.
  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited February 16
    Even as someone who is very open about having bipolar disorder (I speak publicly about it at church and in my university lectures) I wouldn’t touch group therapy with a barge pole.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I think the OP is asking an impossible question. As has been pointed ted out the two groups are different. Their function is different. A Church community is not set up to give the same sort of support as a group specifically set up to help. It is unfair to compare the two.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    I think the OP is asking an impossible question. As has been pointed ted out the two groups are different. Their function is different. A Church community is not set up to give the same sort of support as a group specifically set up to help. It is unfair to compare the two.
    This. It’s a totally impossible question. Aside from the issues you note, every person is different and every situation is different. What is better for one person or one situation won’t necessarily be better for another person, or for the same person in a different situation.



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