Sorry, I made a mistake of of the title of the organization I referenced. It is Braver Angels.
According to their write-up, they were deliberately referencing Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, but wanted to emphasize the bravery involved in getting to know your political adversaries better.
How anyone can look at the context of that particular speech and think it's a useful reference for feel-good reconciliation, I have no idea.
They started off calling themselves Better Angels, but got sued for infringement by The Better Angels Society, so re-named themselves Braver Angels. The Better Angels Society is a non-profit started by Ken Burns' documentary film company that promotes American history documentaries.
How anyone can look at the context of that particular speech and think it's a useful reference for feel-good reconciliation, I have no idea.
Agree, it's completely tone-deaf, or they just didn't ever read the speech or history of the US in the 1860s. Lincoln says he has no intention or power to do away with slavery in the Southern states or with the fugitive slave laws. He just wants to avoid splitting the Union and civil war, as seven states have already seceded, and says he will not use force except to defend federal property. He defends the Constitution and condemns secession as anarchy. The "better angels" phrase comes from the conclusion:
I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.
This is an expression of hope -- a forlorn hope -- delivered March 4, 1861. The governor of South Carolina had demanded in December that the US government surrender Fort Sumter; Lincoln already knew what federal property was under threat when he drew the line. In April he sent ships to re-supply the fort. The first one arrived on the evening of April 11, and the Confederates started firing on it early on April 12. The better angels of their nature hadn't touched the mystic chords of memory in the five and half weeks since Lincoln's inauguration.
I'm clear on the distinction. I'm interested to know how and when it's delivered a demonstrable benefit -- "loving" a political enemy.
Go.
I'm curious about why you think it needs to deliver a demonstrable benefit. Could you let me know?
I did mention the mental health aspect--I think praying for Trump, even in fear and anger, is preventing me from losing sight of his humanity--and that in itself is a good thing, as it dampens my anxiety levels, which are already sky-high. Given that I've done and am doing all that is possible to change things given my position in life, the anxiety serves no further purpose, and may in fact stop me from being useful. So there's a benefit, if you like.
Can't speak for @The_Riv, obviously, but I'm a lot more likely to do something if it delivers a demonstrable benefit, and I'm completely unsold on the "Jesus/the Buddha/whoever said so, so just do it" kind of argument. The mental health aspect for the individual praying makes the most sense to me, just as many forms of meditation are helpful.
I invited two Trump supporters to my single ladies' Valentine's party. One never did RSVP, and the other said she was coming but texted an hour before the party started to say she could not make it. I am not sure how I will try again to connect with those I disagree with. On a funny note, a friend called me yesterday and said," Hello, this is Elon Musk, "Thinking it was some recorded message asking for a donation, I hung up on him.
They started off calling themselves Better Angels, but got sued for infringement by The Better Angels Society, so re-named themselves Braver Angels. The Better Angels Society is a non-profit started by Ken Burns' documentary film company that promotes American history documentaries.
I'm surprised Burns, of all people, would use it, since he would certainly know its disappointing(to put it mildly) context. Though at least his organization wasn't specifically set up to promote national reconciliation.
[It] is an expression of hope -- a forlorn hope -- delivered March 4, 1861. The governor of South Carolina had demanded in December that the US government surrender Fort Sumter; Lincoln already knew what federal property was under threat when he drew the line. In April he sent ships to re-supply the fort. The first one arrived on the evening of April 11, and the Confederates started firing on it early on April 12. The better angels of their nature hadn't touched the mystic chords of memory in the five and half weeks since Lincoln's inauguration.
It's one of those lines that should only be quoted ironically, like "A chicken in every pot", "peace in our time", and "I am not a crook". Though since, unlike the just-cited orators, Lincoln maintains his hallowed status, I guess it's kind of assumed that everything he said is saturated with instructive wisdom.
It's occurred to me that Politics may not be an aspect of life where love/loving has a role.
Well, I say “political enemies” rather than (say) a nasty person at work or neighbor with whom one’s conflicts are non-political, or even an enemy in some scarier way that might involve physical violence, etc., but in some ways, the problems with the oppressiveness of the Trump crowd, especially those in power, are less political and more just moral, involving causing non-debatable harm to people even out of what seems like prejudice or spite, etc. It’s more visceral, I think, than even something like (say) opposition to the Vietnam or Iraq war. I feel like Trump and Musk are enemies in a way/degree in which, say, Bush and Cheney pale in comparison.
And, from a Christian point of view, if they’re our enemies, we’re commanded to pray for them and even to, in some way, love them.
I'm clear on the distinction. I'm interested to know how and when it's delivered a demonstrable benefit -- "loving" a political enemy.
Go.
I'm curious about why you think it needs to deliver a demonstrable benefit. Could you let me know?
I did mention the mental health aspect--I think praying for Trump, even in fear and anger, is preventing me from losing sight of his humanity--and that in itself is a good thing, as it dampens my anxiety levels, which are already sky-high. Given that I've done and am doing all that is possible to change things given my position in life, the anxiety serves no further purpose, and may in fact stop me from being useful. So there's a benefit, if you like.
Can't speak for @The_Riv, obviously, but I'm a lot more likely to do something if it delivers a demonstrable benefit, and I'm completely unsold on the "Jesus/the Buddha/whoever said so, so just do it" kind of argument. The mental health aspect for the individual praying makes the most sense to me, just as many forms of meditation are helpful.
Well, that's sensible.
God knows I need all the mental health help I can get, right now.
On a personal level, who's experienced a notable benefit of loving a political enemy, and what was/is it?
Although Jesus asked us to love everyone, he didn't ask us to like everyone.
I'm clear on the distinction. I'm interested to know how and when it's delivered a demonstrable benefit -- "loving" a political enemy.
Go.
I'm curious about why you think it needs to deliver a demonstrable benefit. Could you let me know?
I did mention the mental health aspect--I think praying for Trump, even in fear and anger, is preventing me from losing sight of his humanity--and that in itself is a good thing, as it dampens my anxiety levels, which are already sky-high. Given that I've done and am doing all that is possible to change things given my position in life, the anxiety serves no further purpose, and may in fact stop me from being useful. So there's a benefit, if you like.
Sorry for the delay, @Lamb Chopped. I didn't say it needed to deliver a demonstrable benefit as much as I was questioning whether or not it really ever has -- or could. Prayer for others in these circumstances is mostly self-serving, or self-soothing mental health as @Ruth said, and there's nothing wrong with that at all as long as you don't care what the myriad of other outcomes (the political for one big one) are. And so far, I think prayer seems to be the most common action undertaken as loving.
I'm pretty sure that's because there's very little else someone like me can do to affect the (not-so)good and the (not-so) great. I mean, when am I ever going to come into contact with Trump personally? (Thank God.)
My huge, and pretty much insurmountable problem, is that many of the actions of my political opponents are actively harmful to other neighbours.
I'm still figuring that out. I have a limited number of spoons for that kind of disagreement. No argument of mine, however finely honed, is going to change their minds as they're too invested.
I used to regularly engage in a unnecessary amount of rather nasty self talk. Realizing that it didn't help, I mostly stopped. If I'm going to love the people trying to put my literal neighbors into Guatanamo as I love myself, I will start by making them stop attacking my neighbors as that's what I did when it was me attacking me.
...Well, I say “political enemies” rather than (say) a nasty person at work or neighbor with whom one’s conflicts are non-political, or even an enemy in some scarier way that might involve physical violence, etc., but in some ways, the problems with the oppressiveness of the Trump crowd, especially those in power, are less political and more just moral, involving causing non-debatable harm to people even out of what seems like prejudice or spite, etc. It’s more visceral, I think, than even something like (say) opposition to the Vietnam or Iraq war. I feel like Trump and Musk are enemies in a way/degree in which, say, Bush and Cheney pale in comparison.
And, from a Christian point of view, if they’re our enemies, we’re commanded to pray for them and even to, in some way, love them.
The issue for you appears to be the way you feel about it - that you feel they are your enemies. I would make a distinction between you *feeling* as though they are your enemies and them *being* your enemies. And this raises the question of whether they are your enemies at all, in the Christian sense to which you allude.
Putting it another way, it sounds like you're hoping someone can suggest a way of loving them that enables you to manage your feelings about them. I wouldn't exclude other ways of managing your feelings.
...Well, I say “political enemies” rather than (say) a nasty person at work or neighbor with whom one’s conflicts are non-political, or even an enemy in some scarier way that might involve physical violence, etc., but in some ways, the problems with the oppressiveness of the Trump crowd, especially those in power, are less political and more just moral, involving causing non-debatable harm to people even out of what seems like prejudice or spite, etc. It’s more visceral, I think, than even something like (say) opposition to the Vietnam or Iraq war. I feel like Trump and Musk are enemies in a way/degree in which, say, Bush and Cheney pale in comparison.
And, from a Christian point of view, if they’re our enemies, we’re commanded to pray for them and even to, in some way, love them.
The issue for you appears to be the way you feel about it - that you feel they are your enemies. I would make a distinction between you *feeling* as though they are your enemies and them *being* your enemies. And this raises the question of whether they are your enemies at all, in the Christian sense to which you allude.
Putting it another way, it sounds like you're hoping someone can suggest a way of loving them that enables you to manage your feelings about them. I wouldn't exclude other ways of managing your feelings.
Oh, I genuinely believe, intellectually, that Trump and Musk and everyone trying to tear down my country, oppress people, destroy our infrastructure, befriend dictators, destroy the rule of law, destroy all the gains we’ve made in civil rights for me and anyone who isn’t “like them,” and so on, are my enemies, and the enemies of people (and more) that I care about, absolutely. There is more of a visceral emotional reaction, of course. There is genuine fear, grounded in … (gestures at everything happening in the news these foul monsters are doing) all of this, though trying to trust God despite that (even when we were being sent to the arena back in the day) is also something as Christians we’re commanded to do.
When you are literally hoping that, in a worst case scenario, the military will remember that their oath is to the Constitution, not to this genuinely would-be dictator and his literally evil plans, and if they don’t, that the rest of the world could stop him if your country goes full, genuine fascist… yeah, I’d say that counts as a literal, definitive enemy. There was a thread a while back about the possibility of camps, you know?
It's occurred to me that Politics may not be an aspect of life where love/loving has a role.
I would think that means that love is effectively impossible, because on some level politics means "any situation involving more than one person requiring some kind of common understanding."
I sometimes go far enough to say that of people who say they "hate politics," if you scratch that sentiment, you'll find out that what they really hate is "other people."
That is likely putting it unduly harshly, but if you cannot deal with "other people," I might question if you are capable of love in any meaningful sense.
Holy shit, that got even harsher. Um...yeah. I'm just like that sometimes.
It's occurred to me that Politics may not be an aspect of life where love/loving has a role.
I would think that means that love is effectively impossible, because on some level politics means "any situation involving more than one person requiring some kind of common understanding."
I sometimes go far enough to say that of people who say they "hate politics," if you scratch that sentiment, you'll find out that what they really hate is "other people."
That is likely putting it unduly harshly, but if you cannot deal with "other people," I might question if you are capable of love in any meaningful sense.
Holy shit, that got even harsher. Um...yeah. I'm just like that sometimes.
Politics means "other people."
Oh, I hate politics, but it’s because it’s gotten so vicious and Trumpy. I wish it were just boring, rather than terrifying.
OK my take on this. Loving your enemy is hard, so hard to practically impossible. We cannot do it in our own strength. Assuming that God is all we say he is he can help us to do what he asks. Give us the strength to love our enemies. It will still be difficult because of our human nature, but we need not do it in our own strength alone.
OK my take on this. Loving your enemy is hard, so hard to practically impossible. We cannot do it in our own strength. Assuming that God is all we say he is he can help us to do what he asks. Give us the strength to love our enemies. It will still be difficult because of our human nature, but we need not do it in our own strength alone.
The question I have is "what does loving enemies look like in practice?"
The question I have is "what does loving enemies look like in practice?"
Such a great question.
To me love is a way of being, not just a feeling. It's a posture towards oneself and others that invites exploration, understanding and connection. Love is like an infinite ice cream bar - every form of it tastes different depending on the individuals and groups that are in one's field of attention.
The key to being Love IMO rests on two pillars or keys (if St Peter is holding the two keys to the kingdom) - appreciation and forgiveness.
I experience appreciation as different from gratitude in that it is a spontaneous "WOW" that occurs unconditionally in the moment, because of the event. Gratitude is felt after the fact, and upon reflection and evaluation, and is felt in spite of the event. Appreciation doesn't wait for the verdict of the inner critic, it jumps over the barrier and runs onstage to embrace the performer.
So ...
It's possible to appreciate the performance and the performer without granting them the ability to do us harm. We're all the stars of our own life stories, and what good is a story without a great adversary?
If someone has positioned themselves as "the enemy" they are also, in the same moment, the "star" and the "good guy" in their own story. It's possible to appreciate their performance and to appreciate the experience they are providing us by playing "the bad guy". How much greater and deeper is the range of emotion and the feeling of victory when someone has put their all into being "the enemy" and we finally overcome them.
We don't have to reconcile but the second key is forgiveness, and that conversation has gone on at great length here. But in my experience it is much easier to forgive if appreciation has gone before it.
Oscillating between appreciation and forgiveness - it works for me on the personal and on the macro levels. I recommend it.
You're going to have to be far, far more concrete for me to understand you. What does "appreciating" look like in this context? In terms of day to day actions?
You're going to have to be far, far more concrete for me to understand you. What does "appreciating" look like in this context? In terms of day to day actions?
I don't think I know what a "WOW" is.
I think you do but maybe you might not have put a label on it.
It's a kind of breathlessness, a lightness in the pit of your stomach, the sensation you get when you realize you are witnessing a great performance, like a great soloist performing live before you something so pure and profound and with such virtuosity that you are afraid to breathe and break the moment.
It's the feeling you get at a rock concert, at a sporting event when that impossible goal is kicked, at the movies when the effects or the performance overwhelm you. It's a kind of excitement and anticipatory thrill in the solar plexus that makes you feel in complete awe of whatever is happening in front of you.
I can appreciate the performer or the performance or both. If I can't appreciate one I can certainly appreciate the other.
You're going to have to be far, far more concrete for me to understand you. What does "appreciating" look like in this context? In terms of day to day actions?
I don't think I know what a "WOW" is.
I think you do but maybe you might not have put a label on it.
It's a kind of breathlessness, a lightness in the pit of your stomach, the sensation you get when you realize you are witnessing a great performance, like a great soloist performing live before you something so pure and profound and with such virtuosity that you are afraid to breathe and break the moment.
It's the feeling you get at a rock concert, at a sporting event when that impossible goal is kicked, at the movies when the effects or the performance overwhelm you. It's a kind of excitement and anticipatory thrill in the solar plexus that makes you feel in complete awe of whatever is happening in front of you.
I can appreciate the performer or the performance or both. If I can't appreciate one I can certainly appreciate the other.
AFF
Inasmuch as I recognise that - which isn't much - a feeling perhaps I've had two or three times in my life - how does that relate to appreciating enemies? I'm just not able to join the dots here in what you're getting at. I'm not going to be in awe of someone being an arsehole - that makes no sense at all. Anything I do is going to be in spite of how unimpressed I am by their performance, not because of how impressed I am.
But that's getting away from my point point. What things do you do if you are loving your enemies that you wouldn't do if you weren't?
Inasmuch as I recognise that - which isn't much - a feeling perhaps I've had two or three times in my life - how does that relate to appreciating enemies? I'm just not able to join the dots here in what you're getting at. I'm not going to be in awe of someone being an arsehole - that makes no sense at all. Anything I do is going to be in spite of how unimpressed I am by their performance, not because of how impressed I am.
But that's getting away from my point point. What things do you do if you are loving your enemies that you wouldn't do if you weren't?
Well and nobody says you have to but I say "don't knock it until you've tried it". Magical things happen when people feel you are giving them a sincere "wow!". Everyone wants to feel important. Appreciation is that vibe. You'd be surprised how people change when they feel you treating them as important, no matter if you agree with them or not.
You know how a three year old will act out if they can't get a positive vibe from the adults in the room? IMO most a**holes are just that - three year olds. Any attention is better than none.
Inasmuch as I recognise that - which isn't much - a feeling perhaps I've had two or three times in my life - how does that relate to appreciating enemies? I'm just not able to join the dots here in what you're getting at. I'm not going to be in awe of someone being an arsehole - that makes no sense at all. Anything I do is going to be in spite of how unimpressed I am by their performance, not because of how impressed I am.
But that's getting away from my point point. What things do you do if you are loving your enemies that you wouldn't do if you weren't?
Well and nobody says you have to but I say "don't knock it until you've tried it". Magical things happen when people feel you are giving them a sincere "wow!". Everyone wants to feel important. Appreciation is that vibe. You'd be surprised how people change when they feel you treating them as important, no matter if you agree with them or not.
You know how a three year old will act out if they can't get a positive vibe from the adults in the room? IMO most a**holes are just that - three year olds. Any attention is better than none.
AFF
I can't manufacture appreciation I do not feel. I don't appreciate people being arseholes.
Inasmuch as I recognise that - which isn't much - a feeling perhaps I've had two or three times in my life - how does that relate to appreciating enemies? I'm just not able to join the dots here in what you're getting at. I'm not going to be in awe of someone being an arsehole - that makes no sense at all. Anything I do is going to be in spite of how unimpressed I am by their performance, not because of how impressed I am.
But that's getting away from my point point. What things do you do if you are loving your enemies that you wouldn't do if you weren't?
Well and nobody says you have to but I say "don't knock it until you've tried it". Magical things happen when people feel you are giving them a sincere "wow!". Everyone wants to feel important. Appreciation is that vibe. You'd be surprised how people change when they feel you treating them as important, no matter if you agree with them or not.
You know how a three year old will act out if they can't get a positive vibe from the adults in the room? IMO most a**holes are just that - three year olds. Any attention is better than none.
AFF
I can't manufacture appreciation I do not feel. I don't appreciate people being arseholes.
Fair enough. You gotta find your own way. I hope you arrive there sooner rather than later. The world needs all the love it can get.
I think love is entirely orthogonal to appreciating people being arseholes. You can love despite things; you don't have to love because of things.
Someone is contracted to do some building work. Instead of completing it they leave the place in an absolute mess, what work they do do has to be taken down, and it's going to cost you thousands to put right, even after you've extracted some compensation out of them. You can't "appreciate" their fecking you around. You might be able to display love despite it, but because of it? No.
So my question is how would one display love despite what someone has done to you. Pretending to appreciate their part in "writing" an unwelcome and annoying part of "your story" is not going to fly.
My own take on it is this: love is wishing/wanting the best for someone. So if I’m liking for them to change, it is not simply wishing g for a change which is beneficial to me.
In terms of what one does, love can only really be worked out with people you actually engage with. There can’t be any day-to-day hands on working out of my attempt to live, say, Vladimir Putin. But to seek to live out love means not merely praying for his purposes to be thwarted, or for him to be removed from office (both of which seem to be perfectly legitimate prayers), but also to pray for God to be at work in transforming him.
I suppose partly love for political enemies is about not monstering or othering them, but recognising them as fellow human beings – even though I may continue vehemently to oppose their declarations, policies, or actions.
I think love is entirely orthogonal to appreciating people being arseholes. You can love despite things; you don't have to love because of things.
Someone is contracted to do some building work. Instead of completing it they leave the place in an absolute mess, what work they do do has to be taken down, and it's going to cost you thousands to put right, even after you've extracted some compensation out of them. You can't "appreciate" their fecking you around. You might be able to display love despite it, but because of it? No.
So my question is how would one display love despite what someone has done to you. Pretending to appreciate their part in "writing" an unwelcome and annoying part of "your story" is not going to fly.
Well the way I experience it, it's not pretending. Fine if you don't see your life as your own story, and its events and participants as unwelcome and annoying. Like I said you have to find your own way to solve this conundrum for yourself, and I do hope that you do.
I'm just sharing the point of view and the activity that enables me to see people from a different vatage point, one that I find enjoyable and transformative both of myself and occasionally of them as well.
Someone somewhere said something something "BE the change you want to see in the world". I didn't come by this method by accident, someone taught me how. I tried it, had my own experience, and found it pretty nifty.
Clearly it's not everyone's cup of tea but there's no harm in sharing is there?
I think love is entirely orthogonal to appreciating people being arseholes. You can love despite things; you don't have to love because of things.
Someone is contracted to do some building work. Instead of completing it they leave the place in an absolute mess, what work they do do has to be taken down, and it's going to cost you thousands to put right, even after you've extracted some compensation out of them. You can't "appreciate" their fecking you around. You might be able to display love despite it, but because of it? No.
So my question is how would one display love despite what someone has done to you. Pretending to appreciate their part in "writing" an unwelcome and annoying part of "your story" is not going to fly.
Well the way I experience it, it's not pretending. Fine if you don't see your life as your own story, and its events and participants as unwelcome and annoying. Like I said you have to find your own way to solve this conundrum for yourself, and I do hope that you do.
I'm just sharing the point of view and the activity that enables me to see people from a different vatage point, one that I find enjoyable and transformative both of myself and occasionally of them as well.
Someone somewhere said something something "BE the change you want to see in the world". I didn't come by this method by accident, someone taught me how. I tried it, had my own experience, and found it pretty nifty.
Clearly it's not everyone's cup of tea but there's no harm in sharing is there?
AFF
I'm trying to see how it can actually work universally.
To take an extreme example, can we appreciate the parts murderers play in killing our family members? After all, their deaths are part of our story, are they not?
I don't see what any of that has to do with being the change you want to see in the world.
I'm trying to see how it can actually work universally.
To take an extreme example, can we appreciate the parts murderers play in killing our family members? After all, their deaths are part of our story, are they not?
I don't see what any of that has to do with being the change you want to see in the world.
Well and so that's where the "one life to live" narrative fails me.
I'm not saying my daughter was murdered but she was taken at age 26 suddenly by heart failure. I imagine if she had been taken from me by a someone not a something and the conclusion I come to is the same.
I have to appreciate that this is HER story. She wrote it, she cast it, she has her own karmic energies to balance. I'm a major supporting cast member but that's all I can be. I can be as angry and hurt as I like at the person or condition that took her, but I can't argue with HER.
If I appreciate HER, her story, her sovereign responsibility for her karma, then I can forgive whoever or whatever took her from me.
And I know, I know, that this is only one chapter of our story together. A short chapter. But not the last one by far. And it's a great consolation to me that everything will be all right in the end, and if it's not all right, it's not the end.
It's not a deep take like some of the others in this thread but my take on trying to love my enemies, political or otherwise, is to try to find something about them that provokes my sympathy. So I recall a particular high profile divisive politician in the UK who was quite hard to like, but when that person's life partner died, I could feel honestly sorry for them for their loss. It may not be full blown "loving" of an enemy but it's a way of keeping them human in my mind.
I'm trying to see how it can actually work universally.
To take an extreme example, can we appreciate the parts murderers play in killing our family members? After all, their deaths are part of our story, are they not?
I don't see what any of that has to do with being the change you want to see in the world.
Well and so that's where the "one life to live" narrative fails me.
I'm not saying my daughter was murdered but she was taken at age 26 suddenly by heart failure. I imagine if she had been taken from me by a someone not a something and the conclusion I come to is the same.
I have to appreciate that this is HER story. She wrote it, she cast it, she has her own karmic energies to balance. I'm a major supporting cast member but that's all I can be. I can be as angry and hurt as I like at the person or condition that took her, but I can't argue with HER.
If I appreciate HER, her story, her sovereign responsibility for her karma, then I can forgive whoever or whatever took her from me.
And I know, I know, that this is only one chapter of our story together. A short chapter. But not the last one by far. And it's a great consolation to me that everything will be all right in the end, and if it's not all right, it's not the end.
AFF
First of all I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter. It would destroy me.
But while I can imagine you could forgive a someone who took someone, could you actually *appreciate* their doing so? I don't see that.
First of all I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter. It would destroy me.
But while I can imagine you could forgive a someone who took someone, could you actually *appreciate* their doing so? I don't see that.
You're confusing the actor with the role they play.
Asking this question is like asking if I can appreciate that Darth Vader killed Obi Wan Kenobi.
Let's assume that someone and not something took my daughter. Can I appreciate that person's action? Not at all. Can I appreciate them as a human being? Yes I can. Can I appreciate them as someone who my daughter loved and trusted enough to cast them in the role of seeing her through the second most important event of her life (next to birth) even though I have no idea of who they are? Yes I can.
Who is this person??? Why were they so important to HER that she entrusted them with the second most important event of her life??
It seems to me to be incumbent upon me to understand, to enter into exploration and to understand and connect with her narrative in a way I was unable to before. Which circles back to my original comment on love as a way of being.
You're suggesting that people pick someone they love and trust to be their murderer? Very few people outside of severe mental illness choose to be murdered at all! Murders aren't events in people's chosen narratives; they're violent intrusions and denials of people's autonomy and right to life!
You're suggesting that people pick someone they love and trust to be their murderer? Very few people outside of severe mental illness choose to be murdered at all! Murders aren't events in people's chosen narratives; they're violent intrusions and denials of people's autonomy and right to life!
Please tell me I'm totally misunderstanding you.
I'm saying that we all have sovereign responsibility for our actions and consequences on this material plane of existence.
This is my definition of "original sin". If our consciousness is from somewhere that doesn't know what it feels like to "murder" or be "murdered" , like Cain and Abel, we decide on another level of being who is going to play the "murderer" and who will be "murdered".
Actions must be balanced with consequences, in real time, and everyone who writes this type of story gets a turn to feel what it feels like to commit grievous harm and to be forgiven.
Everyone with this type of story gets a turn to feel what these atrocities feel like, which IMO is in part why we pray for forgiveness for our sins, because in doing these things we understand how horrific our consequences must be, and because forgiveness is the only mechanism by which we are excused from experiencing the consequences of our causes.
If my daughter chose death by murder I can only assume that she is either:
experiencing consequences of prior causes she put into motion or
facilitating the original cause of someone who she loves enough to allow them to play the role of murderer.
Either way, it is HER story. Whatever harm the murderer does to me, I have the option to forgive, or to hold to the wheel of energetic balancing through unforgiveness.
The easiest, best and most loving thing to do, for me, is to forgive and to release the emotional bond of cause and effect between myself and the wrongdoer. The best thing for me to do is to appreciate that my story is my story, and hers is hers, and his is his.
For some reason YHWH didn't remind the Israelites to love their enemies when they were trekking across Sinai.
Yeah, there's some stuff in the there that really swings the opposite way quite strongly!
This is pretty typical for Jesus' teaching, though; he takes the Mosaic law as a base, and then adds to it--usually something intolerable by human standards. There's a place where he's discussing divorce and he basically comes right out and says that Moses' law was not intended to be the last word in perfection; it was a standard God gave them because that was as much as they could aspire to at that point. Note that I say "aspire to," not "handle". None of us is capable of keeping the law perfectly at either point, Moses' time or Jesus'.
You're suggesting that people pick someone they love and trust to be their murderer? Very few people outside of severe mental illness choose to be murdered at all! Murders aren't events in people's chosen narratives; they're violent intrusions and denials of people's autonomy and right to life!
Please tell me I'm totally misunderstanding you.
I'm saying that we all have sovereign responsibility for our actions and consequences on this material plane of existence.
This is my definition of "original sin". If our consciousness is from somewhere that doesn't know what it feels like to "murder" or be "murdered" , like Cain and Abel, we decide on another level of being who is going to play the "murderer" and who will be "murdered".
Actions must be balanced with consequences, in real time, and everyone who writes this type of story gets a turn to feel what it feels like to commit grievous harm and to be forgiven.
Everyone with this type of story gets a turn to feel what these atrocities feel like, which IMO is in part why we pray for forgiveness for our sins, because in doing these things we understand how horrific our consequences must be, and because forgiveness is the only mechanism by which we are excused from experiencing the consequences of our causes.
If my daughter chose death by murder I can only assume that she is either:
experiencing consequences of prior causes she put into motion or
facilitating the original cause of someone who she loves enough to allow them to play the role of murderer.
Either way, it is HER story. Whatever harm the murderer does to me, I have the option to forgive, or to hold to the wheel of energetic balancing through unforgiveness.
The easiest, best and most loving thing to do, for me, is to forgive and to release the emotional bond of cause and effect between myself and the wrongdoer. The best thing for me to do is to appreciate that my story is my story, and hers is hers, and his is his.
AFF
Or people don't choose death by murder but have it forced on them by people who murder them, who do it for reasons of their own which have nothing to do with any desires, decisions or wishes their victims may have had or made.
For some reason YHWH didn't remind the Israelites to love their enemies when they were trekking across Sinai.
Yeah, there's some stuff in the there that really swings the opposite way quite strongly!
This is pretty typical for Jesus' teaching, though; he takes the Mosaic law as a base, and then adds to it--usually something intolerable by human standards. There's a place where he's discussing divorce and he basically comes right out and says that Moses' law was not intended to be the last word in perfection; it was a standard God gave them because that was as much as they could aspire to at that point. Note that I say "aspire to," not "handle". None of us is capable of keeping the law perfectly at either point, Moses' time or Jesus'.
Yeah, but there's a to my mind uncrossable gulf between "love your enemies; do good to those who persecute you" and "kill 'em all, men, women, children, babes in arms. The lot!" It's not a higher standard; it's the diametric opposite.
Or people don't choose death by murder but have it forced on them by people who murder them, who do it for reasons of their own which have nothing to do with any desires, decisions or wishes their victims may have had or made.
That's certainly the way that many people look at it, and of course they are entitled to live out the narratives that append to those particular viewpoints.
They are entitled to see things the way they want to see them and to experience their stories in whatever form or fashion they see best.
It's not my place to judge, only to appreciate your story.
OK my take on this. Loving your enemy is hard, so hard to practically impossible. We cannot do it in our own strength. Assuming that God is all we say he is he can help us to do what he asks. Give us the strength to love our enemies. It will still be difficult because of our human nature, but we need not do it in our own strength alone.
My own take on it is this: love is wishing/wanting the best for someone. So if I’m liking for them to change, it is not simply wishing g for a change which is beneficial to me.
In terms of what one does, love can only really be worked out with people you actually engage with. There can’t be any day-to-day hands on working out of my attempt to live, say, Vladimir Putin. But to seek to live out love means not merely praying for his purposes to be thwarted, or for him to be removed from office (both of which seem to be perfectly legitimate prayers), but also to pray for God to be at work in transforming him.
I suppose partly love for political enemies is about not monstering or othering them, but recognising them as fellow human beings – even though I may continue vehemently to oppose their declarations, policies, or actions.
It's not a deep take like some of the others in this thread but my take on trying to love my enemies, political or otherwise, is to try to find something about them that provokes my sympathy. So I recall a particular high profile divisive politician in the UK who was quite hard to like, but when that person's life partner died, I could feel honestly sorry for them for their loss. It may not be full blown "loving" of an enemy but it's a way of keeping them human in my mind.
You're suggesting that people pick someone they love and trust to be their murderer? Very few people outside of severe mental illness choose to be murdered at all! Murders aren't events in people's chosen narratives; they're violent intrusions and denials of people's autonomy and right to life!
Please tell me I'm totally misunderstanding you.
I'm saying that we all have sovereign responsibility for our actions and consequences on this material plane of existence.
This is my definition of "original sin". If our consciousness is from somewhere that doesn't know what it feels like to "murder" or be "murdered" , like Cain and Abel, we decide on another level of being who is going to play the "murderer" and who will be "murdered".
Actions must be balanced with consequences, in real time, and everyone who writes this type of story gets a turn to feel what it feels like to commit grievous harm and to be forgiven.
Everyone with this type of story gets a turn to feel what these atrocities feel like, which IMO is in part why we pray for forgiveness for our sins, because in doing these things we understand how horrific our consequences must be, and because forgiveness is the only mechanism by which we are excused from experiencing the consequences of our causes.
If my daughter chose death by murder I can only assume that she is either:
experiencing consequences of prior causes she put into motion or
facilitating the original cause of someone who she loves enough to allow them to play the role of murderer.
Either way, it is HER story. Whatever harm the murderer does to me, I have the option to forgive, or to hold to the wheel of energetic balancing through unforgiveness.
The easiest, best and most loving thing to do, for me, is to forgive and to release the emotional bond of cause and effect between myself and the wrongdoer. The best thing for me to do is to appreciate that my story is my story, and hers is hers, and his is his.
AFF
Or people don't choose death by murder but have it forced on them by people who murder them, who do it for reasons of their own which have nothing to do with any desires, decisions or wishes their victims may have had or made.
Absolutely 100% agreed. I don’t believe the world works like that. I’m very very sorry about your daughter, AFF, regardless.
Absolutely 100% agreed. I don’t believe the world works like that. I’m very very sorry about your daughter, AFF, regardless.
Thank you dear Friend.
This is one of the beauties of operating our individual Free Will here and now, we get to choose our own viewpoints within the overarching Creation.
We all get to choose how best to frame our experiences in order to bring ourselves the most love, forgiveness, peace, balance, harmony and happiness in the face of overwhelming circumstances.
I hope that everyone who struggles with the OP's question comes very shortly to the answers that best satisfy their need for peace, balance, love and forgiveness. The world needs us to make peace with, and to love ourselves and one another, now more than ever. By whatever means necessary.
. . . we get to choose our own viewpoints within the overarching Creation.
We all get to choose how best to frame our experiences in order to bring ourselves the most love, forgiveness, peace, balance, harmony and happiness in the face of overwhelming circumstances.
Right, that’s the kind of thing I don’t believe. I wish you well regardless, but I 100% don’t believe that’s true.
Right, that’s the kind of thing I don’t believe. I wish you well regardless, but I 100% don’t believe that’s true.
I appreciate that you disagree. See here it is, we don't have to agree in order to love one another. This, to me, is just a little slice of the Kingdom.
I likewise wish you all your very best outcomes always. Hugs!!
Right, that’s the kind of thing I don’t believe. I wish you well regardless, but I 100% don’t believe that’s true.
I appreciate that you disagree. See here it is, we don't have to agree in order to love one another. This, to me, is just a little slice of the Kingdom.
I likewise wish you all your very best outcomes always. Hugs!!
FF wrote: "This is one of the beauties of operating our individual Free Will here and now, we get to choose our own viewpoints within the overarching Creation.
We all get to choose how best to frame our experiences in order to bring ourselves the most love, forgiveness, peace, balance, harmony and happiness in the face of overwhelming circumstances".
Another thought provoking thought from FF. CS Lewis came to believe, "We can only, in the end, choose what we believe".
I agree (pace ChasMastr) with FF, but would add:
We must be guided by the Holy Spirit, however we experience Him (or Her). What we believe must be reflected in how we act and behave, and chime with our inermost consciences. It must not jar with our character and gifting, and, importantly, not exclude, judge or comdemn another's way of being.
We, or at least I) fail to live up to this ideal, which is why trust (believe) in forgiveness and God's mercy being new every morning.
I cannot choose what I believe, whatever C S Lewis may say. I would choose a lot more belief than I have, had I that power. But I don't. I believe things to the same extent they seem to be true on the basis of the evidence available. Choice doesn't come into it.
Perhaps I should have used the phrase, 'Belief system', i.e. what tradition do we choose to live and breathe and have our being? I do not choose to believe the earth goes round the sun, but I do choose to remain within the Christian fold rather than, say, becoming a Sikh, an equally valid choice.
Comments
According to their write-up, they were deliberately referencing Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, but wanted to emphasize the bravery involved in getting to know your political adversaries better.
How anyone can look at the context of that particular speech and think it's a useful reference for feel-good reconciliation, I have no idea.
Agree, it's completely tone-deaf, or they just didn't ever read the speech or history of the US in the 1860s. Lincoln says he has no intention or power to do away with slavery in the Southern states or with the fugitive slave laws. He just wants to avoid splitting the Union and civil war, as seven states have already seceded, and says he will not use force except to defend federal property. He defends the Constitution and condemns secession as anarchy. The "better angels" phrase comes from the conclusion:
This is an expression of hope -- a forlorn hope -- delivered March 4, 1861. The governor of South Carolina had demanded in December that the US government surrender Fort Sumter; Lincoln already knew what federal property was under threat when he drew the line. In April he sent ships to re-supply the fort. The first one arrived on the evening of April 11, and the Confederates started firing on it early on April 12. The better angels of their nature hadn't touched the mystic chords of memory in the five and half weeks since Lincoln's inauguration.
Can't speak for @The_Riv, obviously, but I'm a lot more likely to do something if it delivers a demonstrable benefit, and I'm completely unsold on the "Jesus/the Buddha/whoever said so, so just do it" kind of argument. The mental health aspect for the individual praying makes the most sense to me, just as many forms of meditation are helpful.
I'm surprised Burns, of all people, would use it, since he would certainly know its disappointing(to put it mildly) context. Though at least his organization wasn't specifically set up to promote national reconciliation.
It's one of those lines that should only be quoted ironically, like "A chicken in every pot", "peace in our time", and "I am not a crook". Though since, unlike the just-cited orators, Lincoln maintains his hallowed status, I guess it's kind of assumed that everything he said is saturated with instructive wisdom.
Well, I say “political enemies” rather than (say) a nasty person at work or neighbor with whom one’s conflicts are non-political, or even an enemy in some scarier way that might involve physical violence, etc., but in some ways, the problems with the oppressiveness of the Trump crowd, especially those in power, are less political and more just moral, involving causing non-debatable harm to people even out of what seems like prejudice or spite, etc. It’s more visceral, I think, than even something like (say) opposition to the Vietnam or Iraq war. I feel like Trump and Musk are enemies in a way/degree in which, say, Bush and Cheney pale in comparison.
And, from a Christian point of view, if they’re our enemies, we’re commanded to pray for them and even to, in some way, love them.
Well, that's sensible.
God knows I need all the mental health help I can get, right now.
Sorry for the delay, @Lamb Chopped. I didn't say it needed to deliver a demonstrable benefit as much as I was questioning whether or not it really ever has -- or could. Prayer for others in these circumstances is mostly self-serving, or self-soothing mental health as @Ruth said, and there's nothing wrong with that at all as long as you don't care what the myriad of other outcomes (the political for one big one) are. And so far, I think prayer seems to be the most common action undertaken as loving.
Putting it another way, it sounds like you're hoping someone can suggest a way of loving them that enables you to manage your feelings about them. I wouldn't exclude other ways of managing your feelings.
Oh, I genuinely believe, intellectually, that Trump and Musk and everyone trying to tear down my country, oppress people, destroy our infrastructure, befriend dictators, destroy the rule of law, destroy all the gains we’ve made in civil rights for me and anyone who isn’t “like them,” and so on, are my enemies, and the enemies of people (and more) that I care about, absolutely. There is more of a visceral emotional reaction, of course. There is genuine fear, grounded in … (gestures at everything happening in the news these foul monsters are doing) all of this, though trying to trust God despite that (even when we were being sent to the arena back in the day) is also something as Christians we’re commanded to do.
When you are literally hoping that, in a worst case scenario, the military will remember that their oath is to the Constitution, not to this genuinely would-be dictator and his literally evil plans, and if they don’t, that the rest of the world could stop him if your country goes full, genuine fascist… yeah, I’d say that counts as a literal, definitive enemy. There was a thread a while back about the possibility of camps, you know?
I would think that means that love is effectively impossible, because on some level politics means "any situation involving more than one person requiring some kind of common understanding."
I sometimes go far enough to say that of people who say they "hate politics," if you scratch that sentiment, you'll find out that what they really hate is "other people."
That is likely putting it unduly harshly, but if you cannot deal with "other people," I might question if you are capable of love in any meaningful sense.
Holy shit, that got even harsher. Um...yeah. I'm just like that sometimes.
Politics means "other people."
Oh, I hate politics, but it’s because it’s gotten so vicious and Trumpy. I wish it were just boring, rather than terrifying.
The question I have is "what does loving enemies look like in practice?"
Such a great question.
To me love is a way of being, not just a feeling. It's a posture towards oneself and others that invites exploration, understanding and connection. Love is like an infinite ice cream bar - every form of it tastes different depending on the individuals and groups that are in one's field of attention.
The key to being Love IMO rests on two pillars or keys (if St Peter is holding the two keys to the kingdom) - appreciation and forgiveness.
I experience appreciation as different from gratitude in that it is a spontaneous "WOW" that occurs unconditionally in the moment, because of the event. Gratitude is felt after the fact, and upon reflection and evaluation, and is felt in spite of the event. Appreciation doesn't wait for the verdict of the inner critic, it jumps over the barrier and runs onstage to embrace the performer.
So ...
It's possible to appreciate the performance and the performer without granting them the ability to do us harm. We're all the stars of our own life stories, and what good is a story without a great adversary?
If someone has positioned themselves as "the enemy" they are also, in the same moment, the "star" and the "good guy" in their own story. It's possible to appreciate their performance and to appreciate the experience they are providing us by playing "the bad guy". How much greater and deeper is the range of emotion and the feeling of victory when someone has put their all into being "the enemy" and we finally overcome them.
We don't have to reconcile but the second key is forgiveness, and that conversation has gone on at great length here. But in my experience it is much easier to forgive if appreciation has gone before it.
Oscillating between appreciation and forgiveness - it works for me on the personal and on the macro levels. I recommend it.
AFF
I don't think I know what a "WOW" is.
I think you do but maybe you might not have put a label on it.
It's a kind of breathlessness, a lightness in the pit of your stomach, the sensation you get when you realize you are witnessing a great performance, like a great soloist performing live before you something so pure and profound and with such virtuosity that you are afraid to breathe and break the moment.
It's the feeling you get at a rock concert, at a sporting event when that impossible goal is kicked, at the movies when the effects or the performance overwhelm you. It's a kind of excitement and anticipatory thrill in the solar plexus that makes you feel in complete awe of whatever is happening in front of you.
I can appreciate the performer or the performance or both. If I can't appreciate one I can certainly appreciate the other.
AFF
Inasmuch as I recognise that - which isn't much - a feeling perhaps I've had two or three times in my life - how does that relate to appreciating enemies? I'm just not able to join the dots here in what you're getting at. I'm not going to be in awe of someone being an arsehole - that makes no sense at all. Anything I do is going to be in spite of how unimpressed I am by their performance, not because of how impressed I am.
But that's getting away from my point point. What things do you do if you are loving your enemies that you wouldn't do if you weren't?
Well and nobody says you have to but I say "don't knock it until you've tried it". Magical things happen when people feel you are giving them a sincere "wow!". Everyone wants to feel important. Appreciation is that vibe. You'd be surprised how people change when they feel you treating them as important, no matter if you agree with them or not.
You know how a three year old will act out if they can't get a positive vibe from the adults in the room? IMO most a**holes are just that - three year olds. Any attention is better than none.
AFF
I can't manufacture appreciation I do not feel. I don't appreciate people being arseholes.
Fair enough. You gotta find your own way. I hope you arrive there sooner rather than later. The world needs all the love it can get.
AFF
Someone is contracted to do some building work. Instead of completing it they leave the place in an absolute mess, what work they do do has to be taken down, and it's going to cost you thousands to put right, even after you've extracted some compensation out of them. You can't "appreciate" their fecking you around. You might be able to display love despite it, but because of it? No.
So my question is how would one display love despite what someone has done to you. Pretending to appreciate their part in "writing" an unwelcome and annoying part of "your story" is not going to fly.
In terms of what one does, love can only really be worked out with people you actually engage with. There can’t be any day-to-day hands on working out of my attempt to live, say, Vladimir Putin. But to seek to live out love means not merely praying for his purposes to be thwarted, or for him to be removed from office (both of which seem to be perfectly legitimate prayers), but also to pray for God to be at work in transforming him.
I suppose partly love for political enemies is about not monstering or othering them, but recognising them as fellow human beings – even though I may continue vehemently to oppose their declarations, policies, or actions.
Well the way I experience it, it's not pretending. Fine if you don't see your life as your own story, and its events and participants as unwelcome and annoying. Like I said you have to find your own way to solve this conundrum for yourself, and I do hope that you do.
I'm just sharing the point of view and the activity that enables me to see people from a different vatage point, one that I find enjoyable and transformative both of myself and occasionally of them as well.
Someone somewhere said something something "BE the change you want to see in the world". I didn't come by this method by accident, someone taught me how. I tried it, had my own experience, and found it pretty nifty.
Clearly it's not everyone's cup of tea but there's no harm in sharing is there?
AFF
I'm trying to see how it can actually work universally.
To take an extreme example, can we appreciate the parts murderers play in killing our family members? After all, their deaths are part of our story, are they not?
I don't see what any of that has to do with being the change you want to see in the world.
Yeah, there's some stuff in the there that really swings the opposite way quite strongly!
Well and so that's where the "one life to live" narrative fails me.
I'm not saying my daughter was murdered but she was taken at age 26 suddenly by heart failure. I imagine if she had been taken from me by a someone not a something and the conclusion I come to is the same.
I have to appreciate that this is HER story. She wrote it, she cast it, she has her own karmic energies to balance. I'm a major supporting cast member but that's all I can be. I can be as angry and hurt as I like at the person or condition that took her, but I can't argue with HER.
If I appreciate HER, her story, her sovereign responsibility for her karma, then I can forgive whoever or whatever took her from me.
And I know, I know, that this is only one chapter of our story together. A short chapter. But not the last one by far. And it's a great consolation to me that everything will be all right in the end, and if it's not all right, it's not the end.
AFF
First of all I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter. It would destroy me.
But while I can imagine you could forgive a someone who took someone, could you actually *appreciate* their doing so? I don't see that.
You're confusing the actor with the role they play.
Asking this question is like asking if I can appreciate that Darth Vader killed Obi Wan Kenobi.
Let's assume that someone and not something took my daughter. Can I appreciate that person's action? Not at all. Can I appreciate them as a human being? Yes I can. Can I appreciate them as someone who my daughter loved and trusted enough to cast them in the role of seeing her through the second most important event of her life (next to birth) even though I have no idea of who they are? Yes I can.
Who is this person??? Why were they so important to HER that she entrusted them with the second most important event of her life??
It seems to me to be incumbent upon me to understand, to enter into exploration and to understand and connect with her narrative in a way I was unable to before. Which circles back to my original comment on love as a way of being.
AFF
Please tell me I'm totally misunderstanding you.
I'm saying that we all have sovereign responsibility for our actions and consequences on this material plane of existence.
This is my definition of "original sin". If our consciousness is from somewhere that doesn't know what it feels like to "murder" or be "murdered" , like Cain and Abel, we decide on another level of being who is going to play the "murderer" and who will be "murdered".
Actions must be balanced with consequences, in real time, and everyone who writes this type of story gets a turn to feel what it feels like to commit grievous harm and to be forgiven.
Everyone with this type of story gets a turn to feel what these atrocities feel like, which IMO is in part why we pray for forgiveness for our sins, because in doing these things we understand how horrific our consequences must be, and because forgiveness is the only mechanism by which we are excused from experiencing the consequences of our causes.
If my daughter chose death by murder I can only assume that she is either:
experiencing consequences of prior causes she put into motion or
facilitating the original cause of someone who she loves enough to allow them to play the role of murderer.
Either way, it is HER story. Whatever harm the murderer does to me, I have the option to forgive, or to hold to the wheel of energetic balancing through unforgiveness.
The easiest, best and most loving thing to do, for me, is to forgive and to release the emotional bond of cause and effect between myself and the wrongdoer. The best thing for me to do is to appreciate that my story is my story, and hers is hers, and his is his.
AFF
This is pretty typical for Jesus' teaching, though; he takes the Mosaic law as a base, and then adds to it--usually something intolerable by human standards. There's a place where he's discussing divorce and he basically comes right out and says that Moses' law was not intended to be the last word in perfection; it was a standard God gave them because that was as much as they could aspire to at that point. Note that I say "aspire to," not "handle". None of us is capable of keeping the law perfectly at either point, Moses' time or Jesus'.
Or people don't choose death by murder but have it forced on them by people who murder them, who do it for reasons of their own which have nothing to do with any desires, decisions or wishes their victims may have had or made.
Yeah, but there's a to my mind uncrossable gulf between "love your enemies; do good to those who persecute you" and "kill 'em all, men, women, children, babes in arms. The lot!" It's not a higher standard; it's the diametric opposite.
That's certainly the way that many people look at it, and of course they are entitled to live out the narratives that append to those particular viewpoints.
They are entitled to see things the way they want to see them and to experience their stories in whatever form or fashion they see best.
It's not my place to judge, only to appreciate your story.
AFF
Amen, absolutely!
Agreed!
Agreed!
Absolutely 100% agreed. I don’t believe the world works like that. I’m very very sorry about your daughter, AFF, regardless.
Thank you dear Friend.
This is one of the beauties of operating our individual Free Will here and now, we get to choose our own viewpoints within the overarching Creation.
We all get to choose how best to frame our experiences in order to bring ourselves the most love, forgiveness, peace, balance, harmony and happiness in the face of overwhelming circumstances.
I hope that everyone who struggles with the OP's question comes very shortly to the answers that best satisfy their need for peace, balance, love and forgiveness. The world needs us to make peace with, and to love ourselves and one another, now more than ever. By whatever means necessary.
With all my love to my dear Friends on the Ship.
AFF
Right, that’s the kind of thing I don’t believe. I wish you well regardless, but I 100% don’t believe that’s true.
I appreciate that you disagree. See here it is, we don't have to agree in order to love one another. This, to me, is just a little slice of the Kingdom.
I likewise wish you all your very best outcomes always. Hugs!!
AFF
Hugs back!
Can you summarise the programmd for those of us without 55 minutes to spare to continue this thread?
We all get to choose how best to frame our experiences in order to bring ourselves the most love, forgiveness, peace, balance, harmony and happiness in the face of overwhelming circumstances".
Another thought provoking thought from FF. CS Lewis came to believe, "We can only, in the end, choose what we believe".
I agree (pace ChasMastr) with FF, but would add:
We must be guided by the Holy Spirit, however we experience Him (or Her). What we believe must be reflected in how we act and behave, and chime with our inermost consciences. It must not jar with our character and gifting, and, importantly, not exclude, judge or comdemn another's way of being.
We, or at least I) fail to live up to this ideal, which is why trust (believe) in forgiveness and God's mercy being new every morning.