Apart from the timeline, how are the lessons Jesus teaches here mutually exclusive, either in meaning or in two things He is described as saying? Surely He could have said both?
(And of course Mark may have condensed/simplified what Matthew said, or what a third unavailable source said, or they each described what they saw independently, but I think we're going to disagree on this matter...)
1) I didn't say or think the lessons about prayer are mutually exclusive. However, I don't see that the intended audiences of the two Gospels would have understood the teachings any better by knowing the different varieties of fig plants and which had inedible leaves, nor do those things help us understand the teachings any better.
2) Mark has the cursing with Temple cleansing and the withering on different days. Matthew has the cleansing on one day and the cursing and withering on the next. Now I am not convinced by a friend of mine who proposed that the discrepancies between these pericopes, including the temple cleansing, is explained by them having occurred twice.
3) Yes. We disagree about the idea that Mark used Matthew.
I just ran across this passage while looking for something else:
Jeremiah 8:
When I would gather them, declares the Lord,
there are no grapes on the vine,
nor figs on the fig tree;
even the leaves are withered,
and what I gave them has passed away from them.”
I just ran across this passage while looking for something else:
Jeremiah 8:
When I would gather them, declares the Lord,
there are no grapes on the vine,
nor figs on the fig tree;
even the leaves are withered,
and what I gave them has passed away from them.”
It's making me go hmmmmmm.
An an allusion to this by the Gospel writers, perhaps. Especially if post 2nd Temple destruction.
Woe is me! For I have become like one who,
after the summer fruit has been gathered,
after the vintage has been gleaned,
finds no cluster to eat;
there is no first-ripe fig for which I hunger.
The faithful have disappeared from the land,
and there is no one left who is upright;
they all lie in wait for blood,
and they hunt each other with nets.
Their hands are skilled to do evil;
the official and the judge ask for a bribe,
and the powerful dictate what they desire;
thus they pervert justice.
The best of them is like a brier,
the most upright of them a thorn hedge.
The day of their sentinels, of their punishment, has come;
now their confusion is at hand.
The rest of the chapter continues the theme of Israel’s unfaithfulness and rebellion, and then moves on to God’s restoration, faithfulness and loving kindness.
I just ran across this passage while looking for something else:
Jeremiah 8:
When I would gather them, declares the Lord,
there are no grapes on the vine,
nor figs on the fig tree;
even the leaves are withered,
and what I gave them has passed away from them.”
It's making me go hmmmmmm.
An an allusion to this by the Gospel writers, perhaps. Especially if post 2nd Temple destruction.
I don't think they just made it up, but this may be something on which we disagree. I'd say that Jesus may have had it in mind when He withered the fig tree--or, perhaps, the other way round, when God inspired Jeremiah to write that. And of course I don't think the timing of post 2nd Temple destruction is relevant here--real-life foreshadowing, perhaps, but again I am taking that these things really happened.
It's not a matter of making it up. It's understanding the present through past stories of the faith.
Ah, I misunderstood—I thought you were suggesting that Jesus didn’t wither the fig tree, and it was just put in to make a point. My apologies, in that case.
OK I am sold on the references to Jeremiah and Micah. This raises two questions in my mind:
1. If this is the main point of the withering - to be symbolic of the unresponsive, fruitless people - then why does Jesus emphasise the "whatever you ask for in faith will be granted to you" aspect?
2. The thing that is being symbolised seems harsh. You the people did not respond, did not bear fruit - therefore you will be withered. This is not so much difficult to understand, but difficult to accept.
Well, in answer to number 1, I think he was like all teachers; having made the point he wanted to make, he turns to a second point which will also be useful to them. I know I do that a lot.
On the second thing--yes, it is harsh, and difficult to accept, and I think Jesus feels it so also. The destruction of Jerusalem seems to be on his mind continually during those final weeks (Matthew 23:36-38; Mark 11:12-14; Mark 13:14; Luke 13:6-9; 23:28-31). It brings him to tears.
This, I think, is the point where we get into all those arguments about human free will, and whether God should/ought to/will override it when we use it for evil. But that's probably another thread.
The only comforting bit in all this is that apparently some people DID take warning from all his instructions, and got out before the final fall.
OK I am sold on the references to Jeremiah and Micah. This raises two questions in my mind:
1. If this is the main point of the withering - to be symbolic of the unresponsive, fruitless people - then why does Jesus emphasise the "whatever you ask for in faith will be granted to you" aspect?
2. The thing that is being symbolised seems harsh. You the people did not respond, did not bear fruit - therefore you will be withered. This is not so much difficult to understand, but difficult to accept.
(Smacks self in head) It may be that the impossible mountain Jesus wants the disciples to pray to move away is the unbelief and resistance of God’s people.
Comments
(And of course Mark may have condensed/simplified what Matthew said, or what a third unavailable source said, or they each described what they saw independently, but I think we're going to disagree on this matter...)
2) Mark has the cursing with Temple cleansing and the withering on different days. Matthew has the cleansing on one day and the cursing and withering on the next. Now I am not convinced by a friend of mine who proposed that the discrepancies between these pericopes, including the temple cleansing, is explained by them having occurred twice.
3) Yes. We disagree about the idea that Mark used Matthew.
Jeremiah 8:
When I would gather them, declares the Lord,
there are no grapes on the vine,
nor figs on the fig tree;
even the leaves are withered,
and what I gave them has passed away from them.”
It's making me go hmmmmmm.
An an allusion to this by the Gospel writers, perhaps. Especially if post 2nd Temple destruction.
The rest of the chapter continues the theme of Israel’s unfaithfulness and rebellion, and then moves on to God’s restoration, faithfulness and loving kindness.
I don't think they just made it up, but this may be something on which we disagree. I'd say that Jesus may have had it in mind when He withered the fig tree--or, perhaps, the other way round, when God inspired Jeremiah to write that. And of course I don't think the timing of post 2nd Temple destruction is relevant here--real-life foreshadowing, perhaps, but again I am taking that these things really happened.
Ah, I misunderstood—I thought you were suggesting that Jesus didn’t wither the fig tree, and it was just put in to make a point. My apologies, in that case.
1. If this is the main point of the withering - to be symbolic of the unresponsive, fruitless people - then why does Jesus emphasise the "whatever you ask for in faith will be granted to you" aspect?
2. The thing that is being symbolised seems harsh. You the people did not respond, did not bear fruit - therefore you will be withered. This is not so much difficult to understand, but difficult to accept.
On the second thing--yes, it is harsh, and difficult to accept, and I think Jesus feels it so also. The destruction of Jerusalem seems to be on his mind continually during those final weeks (Matthew 23:36-38; Mark 11:12-14; Mark 13:14; Luke 13:6-9; 23:28-31). It brings him to tears.
This, I think, is the point where we get into all those arguments about human free will, and whether God should/ought to/will override it when we use it for evil. But that's probably another thread.
The only comforting bit in all this is that apparently some people DID take warning from all his instructions, and got out before the final fall.
(Smacks self in head) It may be that the impossible mountain Jesus wants the disciples to pray to move away is the unbelief and resistance of God’s people.