Public trust in pastors

The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
Unfortunate news for the clergy. According to Gallup, public trust in them continues to decline. Does it matter to the religious communities the clergy serve, though?

Comments

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited April 1
    The article says that 67% of the public considered pastors "highly honest and ethical" in 1985, and then that "rebounded" to 64% "coinciding with a wave of public support" after 9/11.

    I think either the writer doesn't understand the meaning of "rebounded", or has a typo in the statistics.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    It just means there was an overall decline for those 16 years. It’s down to 30% now, apparently.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    It just means there was an overall decline for those 16 years. It’s down to 30% now, apparently.

    But "rebounded" and the context of "coinciding with a wave of public support following the September 11th attacks" make it sound like support increased.

    Maybe the writer means that there was a decline after 1985, and then in 2001 it went back up to 64%, which was higher than during the decline, but it doesn't say what the numbers were in that 16 year period. Badly written, either way.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    edited April 2
    Okay. Well, it’s only 30% right now. Maybe we can talk about that, and if it matters in any way, particularly for the faithful.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    I'd say it doesn't matter because it's like trust in other people's senators/representatives/members of parliament. I trust my pastor. It is utterly irrelevant, to everyone, whether I trust someone else's pastor.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Okay. Well, it’s only 30% right now. Maybe we can talk about that, and if it matters in any way, particularly for the faithful.

    After a series of scandals in which religious institutions and individual clergy of multiple denominations were found to be complicit in massive cover-ups of sexual abuse by fellow clergy, public trust in clergy has for some reason declined sharply.

    Yes, let us talk about why declining public trust in the clergy might matter for the clergy or "the faithful" in a way that is somehow divorced from the most likely reason the general public now finds clergy to be less trustworthy than in the past.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Okay. Well, it’s only 30% right now. Maybe we can talk about that, and if it matters in any way, particularly for the faithful.

    After a series of scandals in which religious institutions and individual clergy of multiple denominations were found to be complicit in massive cover-ups of sexual abuse by fellow clergy, public trust in clergy has for some reason declined sharply.

    Yes, let us talk about why declining public trust in the clergy might matter for the clergy or "the faithful" in a way that is somehow divorced from the most likely reason the general public now finds clergy to be less trustworthy than in the past.

    But interesting that it's gone even further down since the mid-2000s, when media attention to clerical abuse scandals was at about the same level as now. I guess it might be that we've got way more people who were born into a world where "sexual abuser" was already a default assumption about clerics, whereas twenty years ago, even with the media reportage, the perception of clergy was more a hybrid of the older positive assumptions and the then-newer negative ones.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    What does trust mean in that context? And trust in what area of his life/ministry?
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    stetson wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Okay. Well, it’s only 30% right now. Maybe we can talk about that, and if it matters in any way, particularly for the faithful.

    After a series of scandals in which religious institutions and individual clergy of multiple denominations were found to be complicit in massive cover-ups of sexual abuse by fellow clergy, public trust in clergy has for some reason declined sharply.

    Yes, let us talk about why declining public trust in the clergy might matter for the clergy or "the faithful" in a way that is somehow divorced from the most likely reason the general public now finds clergy to be less trustworthy than in the past.

    But interesting that it's gone even further down since the mid-2000s, when media attention to clerical abuse scandals was at about the same level as now.

    There have been other scandals more recently though, even if they received less coverage it was at the level that most people would have heard of those stories.

  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited April 2
    I think though that there has also been a general decline in trust in "public figures". This has both its good and bad sides: good in that the culture of automatic deference, with the possibilities of abuse and bullying, has hopefully lessened; bad in that figures who need to have authority find that authority constantly challenged or ignored.

    Where pastors are concerned, I think it's good for people to both recognise that, yes, they have been trained and probably understand the nuances of Bible teaching than folk in the pews but that, on the other hand, their words are not necessarily Gospel truth which must be unquestionably swallowed by the faithful.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    It would be interesting to see whether public attitudes to lay Christians have changed too. Have any surveys been done on that? I suspect that similar trends would show up.
  • Well, i think that trust in churches (and other public institutions) has also declined.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    edited April 2
    But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?

    I suspect fewer and fewer people know any Christians, so they probably go off their reaction to some public figure.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?

    We are just weird.
  • But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?

    When I owned and ran my own company way back in the aughts, I would generally speaking run, not walk, in the other direction the moment someone I was proposing to do business with announced, or displayed anywhere on their masthead, that they were "good Christians".

    And this was while I was a card carrying Baptist.

    To this day I still view askance people who wear the label on their sleeve like that.

    You don't have to be told I'm a Christian, you'll find out when you find out how I behave towards you in business and elsewhere.

    AFF

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Am wondering if part of the distrust, at least in the United States, is because so many ministers hitched their wagons to the MAGA train, and now that train is derailing itself.

    At one time a pastoral leader would have been the most educated person in the flock other than maybe a medical professional. But as lay people became more educated in their own avocation, the academic chops of the pastor is not as valued as much.

    To the point pastors are trained in the nuances of the Gospel: many Evangelical pastors in America have no real theological training. And those that do have a particular slant that would not be endorsed in mainline churches.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Okay. Well, it’s only 30% right now. Maybe we can talk about that, and if it matters in any way, particularly for the faithful.

    After a series of scandals in which religious institutions and individual clergy of multiple denominations were found to be complicit in massive cover-ups of sexual abuse by fellow clergy, public trust in clergy has for some reason declined sharply.

    Yes, let us talk about why declining public trust in the clergy might matter for the clergy or "the faithful" in a way that is somehow divorced from the most likely reason the general public now finds clergy to be less trustworthy than in the past.

    Did I suggest this be discussed in a way that is somehow divorced from the most likely reason(s)? You do yourself a disservice, methinks. I only ask whether or not it matters, particularly to the religious (but not the clergy themselves).
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?

    I suspect fewer and fewer people know any Christians, so they probably go off their reaction to some public figure.

    I think that's not true yet. I think most people know at least one or two Christians, even if just as former classmates or work colleagues. In the same way as most people know at least a couple of vegans.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?

    I suspect fewer and fewer people know any Christians, so they probably go off their reaction to some public figure.

    I think that's not true yet. I think most people know at least one or two Christians

    There are figures for this, at least in the UK, and this was only very narrowly true as of 2022 - when only 53% of people said they knew at least one Christian:

    https://talkingjesus.org/research

    Given the scope of the decline since their previous report, it's possible that it's no longer true.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited April 2
    But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?
    I suspect fewer and fewer people know any Christians, so they probably go off their reaction to some public figure.
    I think that's not true yet. I think most people know at least one or two Christians, even if just as former classmates or work colleagues. In the same way as most people know at least a couple of vegans.
    It’s probably worth noting that this is a poll of Americans. Whether people are likely to know any Christians (even just nominal Christians) will vary widely depending on where in the US one is. There are still many areas in the US where a person is likely to know lots of Christians of various traditions.

    Meanwhile, I would be interested to see exactly how Gallup’s question was worded. I’m willing to bet “clergy” was intended to be interpreted broadly to include Christian clergy as well as rabbis, imams and any other spiritual leader.


  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    You don't have to be told I'm a Christian, you'll find out when you find out how I behave towards you in business and elsewhere.

    AFF

    And when people do find out - what do they think of us?
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Meanwhile, I would be interested to see exactly how Gallup’s question was worded. I’m willing to bet “clergy” was intended to be interpreted broadly to include Christian clergy as well as rabbis, imams and any other spiritual leader.

    Rather infuriatingly their more detailed record of responses doesn't contain information about additional clarifications/info they may have given their respondees:

    https://news.gallup.com/file/poll/655199/20250113HonestyEthics.pdf

    In the most simplistic case they asked the questions as they appear and people just 'filled in the gaps' based on their existing understanding of the term.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?

    I suspect fewer and fewer people know any Christians, so they probably go off their reaction to some public figure.
    Not true in the US, though, and the survey linked covers just the US. There are a lot more Christians here, so people have their reactions to public figures and press coverage, but also the individuals they know.

    I think though that there has also been a general decline in trust in "public figures".
    Gallup wasn't just surveying trust in clergy; the survey asked people to rate the honesty and ethical standards of people in core professions (link goes to the Gallup site itself). Nurses and grade school teachers get the highest ratings, followed by military officers, pharmacists, and doctors. Lobbyists, Congress, and TV reporters are at the bottom. Clergy and judges still are rated as more ethical than not, but those professions have fallen the most. Gallup attributes the fall in our view of clergy to the overall decline in American religiosity and the Catholic Church's sex scandals (I don't think the public is going to forget about these or forgive them), and the recent fall in our view of judges to the overturning of Roe v Wade (for some of us) and the court cases against Donald Trump (for others of us). I would think overturning Roe v Wade would also contribute to non-Christians' poor view of Christian clergy, given that conservative Christians were instrumental in that.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?

    I suspect fewer and fewer people know any Christians, so they probably go off their reaction to some public figure.

    I think that's not true yet. I think most people know at least one or two Christians

    There are figures for this, at least in the UK, and this was only very narrowly true as of 2022 - when only 53% of people said they knew at least one Christian:

    https://talkingjesus.org/research

    Given the scope of the decline since their previous report, it's possible that it's no longer true.

    Two comments: a) the poll defines "Christian" quite narrowly, such that only 6% "count" as "practising Christians". b) given that as AFF says many Christians do not advertise the fact, perhaps some of that 47% know a Christian without realising it. (Admittedly that would make it difficult for them to form a view of Christians).
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Meanwhile, I would be interested to see exactly how Gallup’s question was worded. I’m willing to bet “clergy” was intended to be interpreted broadly to include Christian clergy as well as rabbis, imams and any other spiritual leader.

    Rather infuriatingly their more detailed record of responses doesn't contain information about additional clarifications/info they may have given their respondees:

    https://news.gallup.com/file/poll/655199/20250113HonestyEthics.pdf

    In the most simplistic case they asked the questions as they appear and people just 'filled in the gaps' based on their existing understanding of the term.
    In which case it’s helpful to know that “clergy” is regularly used in the US to mean spiritual leader regardless of religion. In my experience, it only carries a Christian-specific meaning when explicitly limited—“Christian clergy” or “Catholic clergy”—or when used within the context of a particular community and it can be assumed that “clergy” refers to the clergy of that community.


  • There are figures for this, at least in the UK, and this was only very narrowly true as of 2022 - when only 53% of people said they knew at least one Christian:

    There is a difference between "knowing a Christian" and "knowing that you know a Christian". I know quite a lot of people, but I only know about the religious faith (or otherwise) of a modest subset of those.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    There are figures for this, at least in the UK, and this was only very narrowly true as of 2022 - when only 53% of people said they knew at least one Christian:

    There is a difference between "knowing a Christian" and "knowing that you know a Christian".

    In the context of "But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?" the latter is the relevant consideration.
  • You don't have to be told I'm a Christian, you'll find out when you find out how I behave towards you in business and elsewhere.

    AFF

    And when people do find out - what do they think of us?

    One time, I remember someone said to me "I can't believe you're a Baptist" and I didn't know if it was a compliment or an insult. In response to that peculiarly Southern passive agressive backhand, I just said "Why thank you. I give it my very best effort."

    AFF

  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    Safe to say at this point that the relative trustworthiness of clergy being in the tank doesn’t really move anyone’s needle.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Safe to say at this point that the relative trustworthiness of clergy being in the tank doesn’t really move anyone’s needle.

    Sorry I don't really understand what this means
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    It means people aren’t interested in discussing that aspect. It’s not interesting, or at least not as interesting as what the Gallup organization didn’t ask, or whether or not people know any Christians, or know that they know any Christians.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Well I think it is interesting to compare the two. The survey @chrisstiles linked to suggests that non-Christians don't much like the church, but they do quite like individual Christians and only occasionally regard us as "hypocrites" (9%) or "narrow-minded" (10%). Which was not what I expected. So why the difference?
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    Well I think it is interesting to compare the two. The survey @chrisstiles linked to suggests that non-Christians don't much like the church, but they do quite like individual Christians and only occasionally regard us as "hypocrites" (9%) or "narrow-minded" (10%). Which was not what I expected. So why the difference?

    Though my survey is for the UK, so perhaps there's a pond difference?
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Oh! "In the tank" === "on the slide". Sorry it took me a while to work that out.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Safe to say at this point that the relative trustworthiness of clergy being in the tank doesn’t really move anyone’s needle.

    What are your thoughts? You haven't said.

    I was thinking about this from @Gwai while trundling around the grocery store:
    Gwai wrote: »
    I'd say it doesn't matter because it's like trust in other people's senators/representatives/members of parliament. I trust my pastor. It is utterly irrelevant, to everyone, whether I trust someone else's pastor.

    In the churches I attended and the one I worked for, there were always people who didn't trust the pastor. There are people who pick their place of worship based on its leader, and if they lose trust in the leader, they may leave. There are others whose loyalty is more to the church itself, and they may wait out leaders they don't trust, not willing to cede the church to them -- but there are fewer and fewer of these folks, I think. Both groups of people may circumvent a leader they don't trust, trying to mitigate what they see as damage being caused, or where the governance structure makes it possible they may force the leader out or make that person miserable enough to leave.

    The survey discussion attributes lower trust in clergy to lower religiosity and to church scandals, but it seems to me that lowered overall trust in clergy would feed back into lower interest in attending worship services. People quit a place because they lose trust in the leader or a new leader they don't trust comes in, and they don't necessarily find a new place. And I think it means there are more laypeople in churches on the look-out for bad behavior in their clergy, and there is less willingness to trust clergy leadership. There used to be a much stronger "Father knows best" kind of attitude among laypeople, and I don't see laypeople taking that attitude much anymore.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    The survey discussion attributes lower trust in clergy to lower religiosity and to church scandals, but it seems to me that lowered overall trust in clergy would feed back into lower interest in attending worship services.
    I suspect it’s also fed by lower trust in institutions and in institutional leaders generally.


  • LatchKeyKidLatchKeyKid Shipmate
    But what about trust in us personally, as Christians?

    I am an accredited chaplain with the Disaster Recovery Chaplaincy Network. We get deployed by government request in natural (e.g. floods) and human (e.g. bus/coach crashes) disasters. Some of us are ministers, some, like me, have been trained as chaplains and are not clergy.
    My experience is that we are trusted by the evacuation/recovery centre staff and the public, with little suspicion to overcome.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    edited April 3
    Ruth wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Safe to say at this point that the relative trustworthiness of clergy being in the tank doesn’t really move anyone’s needle.

    What are your thoughts? You haven't said.
    I've mentioned a number of times in here about losing faith in Christianity. That said, I've worked full- and part-time in churches, and I still consider a number of the clergy colleagues I've encountered to be admirable people as well as friends, though they're all at some distance, now. Others, less so, and a few, quite the opposite. As purveyors of their respective faiths, I suspect that the clergy as a class of professionals is falling prey to unfavorable public attitudes toward Religion overall, some of which is the fault of particularly high-profile or notorious clergy. I think I see the clergy more as tragic figures than anything else.

  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    Did the Gallup poll refer only to Christian clergy or also to rabbis and imams?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    HarryCH wrote: »
    Did the Gallup poll refer only to Christian clergy or also to rabbis and imams?
    As discussed above, as far as anyone could tell, it simply asked about “clergy,” with no elaboration or qualification.


  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    I asked because I did not notice anyone else raising the point.
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    I think, at least in our culture, trust in just about everything around us has declined.

    Has anyone found out how to separate pastoral trust from all of the others? It wouldn't surprise me if preachers fared worse than the rest, but I don't see a lot of trust going around these days.
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