How personal is your faith?
Boogie
Heaven Host
in Epiphanies
Mine is quite personal, I only talk about it to trusted people (pearl before swine etc). Mr Boogs is very personal. He discusses it with no-one, not even me. But his deep feelings come out when he's playing the piano for the hymns at Church. Everyone appreciates the depth of feeling he puts into his playing. Especially me. My favourite time of day is when he's practicing the piano and I'm drawing or painting.
(Prompted by Nenya's post here - https://tinyurl.com/2n6mzvz9)
(Prompted by Nenya's post here - https://tinyurl.com/2n6mzvz9)
Comments
But I daresay that's not how you are using the term here. I'd suggest the term 'private' rather than 'personal' in this context.
I have been quite vocal, open and even overtly evangelistic about my faith at times - but often out of a sense of duty. After all, that's what Good Little Evangelicals were meant to do ...
I like and relate very much to what @Lamb Chopped wrote on another thread that it's best when you find you are sharing your faith before you even realise you are doing it.
In evangelical parlance, I often miss 'opportunities' to share or discuss my faith even in contexts where it would be natural and appropriate to do so.
I feel I need to redress that imbalance.
When I was 24 years old I had what I call a "close encounter" with Jesus Christ. I wasn't looking for it I wasn't asking for it, it just happened and like Thomas I was left with the irrefutable evidence of His love, care and concern for me personally.
A lot of people after such a powerful revelation might be tempted to yell about it from the rooftop, stand on the street corner and proselytize, and run around with that feverish look in their eye wanting everyone but everyone to share in the great feeling of such good news. And in a past incarnation I suppose might very well have been one of those people.
This time around, though, I kept it to myself. And it was decades before I could share even the fact that this happened to me in this kind of quasi-anonymous fashion with faceless strangers on the internet.
He and I had a conversation. He answered so many of my questions. But if I shared the specifics of that conversation, it would be like sharing the most intimate details of a love affair. Some things have to be kept in silence because they are sacred.
But because of the answers given, those answers have shaped my faith into something extremely personal which I would never expect any other person to understand or share. Though I have tried occasionally to communicate some aspects of that internal system, I'm largely unsuccessful and that's as it should be I guess.
AFF
Yes, I meant private.
This is how I feel.
And then there's the bits that nobody but the Lord knows, and it's going to stay that way. Because the heart of a marriage--a good one, at least--is never on display, it's between the two people concerned. I've got a journal, so maybe some of that will come out after I'm safely dead (my son has permission). But not now.
But, even in my personal beliefs, there are things I find I keep close to my chest. There are things my adult kids are doing that I would disagree with, but I do not think I can impose my thoughts on them. They know I have certain standards by the way I live.
Once in a while I do share personal illustrations with someone to help them understand how I think about an issue. Once, in counseling, a client shared how he struggled with all the guilt he had from the past. I told him in my mind, God wears glasses, and on the lenses of those glasses is etched a cross. Thus, when God looks at us, God sees the cross before God sees us. Now, I know we can get into a huge discussion about that illustration's theology, but for that particular client, it was enough for him to break through the guilt he had been experiencing.
Of a like mind here.
Yes, I get that.
FWIW although we've never met in real life I do hold you in high regard and with a great deal of respect.
That regard and respect remains irrespective of whether you are a Christian of one form or other or were to become a Buddhist, a Jain or whatever else or remain a post-Christian atheist.
To use a catchphrase from a cheesy 1970s British TV show host that UK posters of a certain vintage may remember, 'I mean that most sincerely folks, I really do.'
😉
Thanks for this thought-provoking post, @Gramps49. I've often wondered what it must be like for ministers and clergy persons.
I will confess that on occasion, when having lunch or a coffee somewhere with a clerical friend in cassock or dog-collar, I've been somewhat disappointed when they've not launched into some kind of full-on Gospel presentation or sermon when a waiter or someone close by alludes to their calling/profession.
Sure, their faith is taken as read, but in my evangelical DNA I still have this residual expectation that the lunch or coffee time would become a scene from the Book of Acts with people falling to their knees in repentance or the proprietor and his entire household being baptised in the back kitchen amidst the crockery and pots.
With such a mindset disappointment and a sense of guilt is inevitable.
I wonder how we navigate that?
I often wonder why we Christians ( in my circles these days, not always the case in my con evo days) almost never talk about our faith amongst ourselves.
But I don’t.
I was invited to join a newly formed group of ladies who meet weekly in each other’s homes. “In discussion, Bible Study and prayer, we aim to share our stories to affirm and understand each other, respecting confidentiality and by God’s help, becoming a little more like Jesus” is how they describe their aim.
I declined, even though there are times when I would welcome the opportunity to meet up with other Christians, or anybody really, but this puts me off.
That description would really put me off too but Hats Off to them for being clear and upfront about their approach. I've ended up in a couple of fairly uncomfortable situations with fellow Christians when I've attended a group where the approach was definitely NOT spelt out!
As regards talking about faith, I am a spiritual director and I also see a spiritual director myself both of which are situations specifically meant to facilitate such conversations.
I'm also part of a centering prayer/ book group where people talk about their faith as much or as little as they wish.
When people learn I am a church-goer and spiritual director I'm sometimes asked about my faith. I have learned before answering to ask questions to ascertain exactly what the person wants to know so that it is as positive an experience as possible for them and I only share personal details if it seems like it might contribute something to answering their questions.
This is a great idea.
Another thing I do is ask the Lord to give me the right things to say to them, since I have no real clue what they're really interested in.
Absolutely.
The former Dean of the Cathedral where I worship often referred to his "PLUM" prayer- Please Lord Use Me- he is superb pastorally with people of all faiths and none and is one of the most sensitive and appropriately spiritual communicators I have ever known.
She's a retired teacher and something of a history buff.
She's well travelled and told me about the 'atmosphere' she and a friend sensed at Fatima.
She also told me about someone she knee who, to her surprise, became an Orthodox priest (he's now retired) despite not having an Eastern European background.
So I told her I'd become Orthodox and she asked me about my 'journey'.
It was obviously easy to discuss these things in those circumstances but what struck me when I reflected afterwards was how easy it is to talk about icons, atmosphere, worship styles and so on rather than Christ.
If those things don't point us to Christ then there's no point in them. They are not ends in themselves.
I wonder whether other Ship mates find this?
Our Lutheran friends for instance. Do you find yourselves talking about dear old Martin, or the 95 Theses or ... rather than Christ?
Or our RC friends, do you find yourselves having to discuss the Papacy or misapprehension about the RCC or controversies or ... rather than Christ?
Or our Anglican friends or Baptist friends or independent charismatic evangelical friends ... do you find yourselves having to discuss secondary or 'external' issues around your particular Christian tradition rather than the core and object of our faith, Christ himself?
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to dislocate Christ from his Church nor to dismiss those things that make for denominational distinctives or particular 'flavours'.
But is it the case that we speak about those more readily than we speak about Christ himself?
(Suddenly thought of the other Martin, and I hope the Shipmate currently off-board is doing better…)
Yes, because the vicar, associated with the bells, smells, statues, icons, organs, hassocks and roof repair fund appeals can be a perfectly reasonable person, if a bit eccentric in some cases, whilst the person who comes and talks about Jesus to you, outside of like an actual church, is usually either (hidden for slurs - L)
Thanks!
L
Epiphanies Host
For most of my life, I strived to have the personal faith. I thought I was missing something or doing it wrong. Others said and showed they had it. So it was my problems and I should try harder. So I did. I supported a church with both time and money. I behaved the way I thought someone with the faith I did not have should behave. Did this though a personal life threatening crisis of violence (I did not die). Kept going like this for more than 50 years. I gave up. I have never felt any presence of God or anything. I have become a faithless Christian if that exists. I don't think anything spiritual exists except as imagination. I don't think there is any life or anything after this life we are living now. No heaven, no hell. The principles of life that Jesus taught are what are best to live by: not loving people, but being kind. That's it.
Re Karl's point--there may be a cultural difference between where you are and the U.S. (or certain parts of it, it's a collage of cultures). While I don't go accosting people on street corners, it's not unknown for university students to discuss God and Jesus (especially given they are basically figuring out life at that point) or for people who are in crisis to re-evaluate their basic ideas about life and to even ask questions of the people around them. Often those questions will end up as a (brief) discussion of Jesus, assuming they go on being open to hear and don't shut down the minute his name comes up. If they DO shut down, I take the hint and change the subject. No need to force him on them.
Gamaliel--well, you've known me long enough to know I'm Jesus-centric, so maybe I'm not the Lutheran you're looking for. But in my experience, while there's a certain amount of shyness (most people aren't going to give you a disquisition on "What Jesus means to me personally" at the drop of a hat), neither will the LCMS Lutherans I know avoid his name or be embarrassed to mention him in an ordinary, matter-of-fact way. I don't think I've run into people who are Luther-centric or divert to talking about the 95 theses. I suspect there ARE a few people who divert to talking about liturgy etc. in a geeky way, but they impress me as being very young and green male seminarians--the kind who go to sem right out of college and have never taken a gap year or had any secular job experience. I think they grow out of it. (If they don't, it would become a major issue during their seminary formation process, which includes interviews and such---nobody wants a pastor who is in it for the liturgy and not Jesus. They'd probably wash out before graduation.)
By the way, it strikes me how close your question is to my own old thread, the one about whether you could have Christianity without Christ.
Welcome!
I also listed RCs, Anglicans, Baptists, independent evangelicals ...
I could have added Methodists, Presbyterians, Copts ...
My point wasn't about Luther or the Papacy or forms of church government or baptism etc but the extent to which we can discuss all these things without bringing Christ into the equation. I think you got that point judging by your closing comments.
I could easily talk to someone about the Ecumenical Councils or various Orthodox jurisdictions, customs and so on without drawing their attention to Christ as the heart of it all. Ok, they might take it as read that I believe in Christ but even the demons do that, as the NT warns us.
I s'pose what I'm driving at is how do we go beyond the superficial 'we light candles in our church' level to the Person of Christ himself?
I think we are reticent about these things here in the UK, but I think it is possible to discuss these things without everyone thinking you are a fanatic or unhinged.
These sort of discussions do take place among students and so on but perhaps not to the extent they did when I was at university.
I've come across young lads who were drawn into Orthodoxy through the toxic masculinity of the 'Orthobros' and wonky online influencers who have told me that they then encountered Christ and then realised that the Church wasn't there as a vehicle for an 'anti-woke' campaign.
Would that more of these dudes would follow suit. Perhaps in time ...
Welcome Burgess.
You are not alone. Mother Theresa is said to have a similar crisis of faith for the last 50 years of her life. A summary of her story here.
I've warned my son his time is coming--he's a young adult, but hasn't apparently had occasion to yell at God yet.
He might be biding his time... mwa ha ha ha ha!
I am teasing of course. More seriously, I suspect many great saints - big S and small s - have said and done much worse than any of us here might have done.
But there's no way of proving that, of course, one way or the other.
Not everything that Big S Saints or small s saints have done was recorded and - shock, horror - many hagiographies are highly mythologised of course.
Although try telling that to some of the 'zealots' and certain types of convert.
Traditions that go in for Big S Saints also go in for small s ones too, of course. Another both/and ... 😉
@Lamb Chopped's post has made me think about Christocentric approaches to things, or 'Jesus centric' as she puts it.
I may start another thread on that. What do we mean by it. How it works out in practice. That sort of thing.
I have worshipped in/joined different denominations but never call myself by the denomination's name.
Recently a minister said that the great commission was the central part of our faith. I interjected and said that for me what was central was loving our neighbour and God.
As a Disaster Recovery chaplain with people of widely different beliefs I think it important to be inclusive and see all people as having/needing love, hope, purpose, and meaning.
Which is fair enough and far enough.
God can take care of the rest.