No mention of Mary or the Saints in RC services. Is this common?
Gamma Gamaliel
Shipmate
I've not long returned from an exceptionally wonderful pilgrimage/conference on Iona.
Dr Rowan Williams was there, which was excellent, and we also had a highly memorable visit to Staffa, Fingal's Cave and the puffins. A pod of dolphins accompanied us part of the way.
Wonderful stuff.
My question though, is as follows ...
I was privileged to attend some morning prayers at the Catholic House of Prayer and, back on the mainland, attended a Vigil Mass in the RC cathedral in Oban.
I was surprised to find no invocations or even references to Mary and the Saints at either of these. As @Alan29 and other Shipmates may remember, I was surprised to find that not all RCs go in for 'that sort of thing'. I was even more surprised though, to find no reference to them in RC morning prayers nor in a Vigil Mass.
I am not saying that is right or wrong, good, bad or indifferent. I am simply puzzled.
How common is this? Perhaps some RC Shipmates can enlighten me.
Dr Rowan Williams was there, which was excellent, and we also had a highly memorable visit to Staffa, Fingal's Cave and the puffins. A pod of dolphins accompanied us part of the way.
Wonderful stuff.
My question though, is as follows ...
I was privileged to attend some morning prayers at the Catholic House of Prayer and, back on the mainland, attended a Vigil Mass in the RC cathedral in Oban.
I was surprised to find no invocations or even references to Mary and the Saints at either of these. As @Alan29 and other Shipmates may remember, I was surprised to find that not all RCs go in for 'that sort of thing'. I was even more surprised though, to find no reference to them in RC morning prayers nor in a Vigil Mass.
I am not saying that is right or wrong, good, bad or indifferent. I am simply puzzled.
How common is this? Perhaps some RC Shipmates can enlighten me.
Comments
The saints, are a different matter, depending on which prayer you're using in the Roman canon, certain saints are obligatory, others saints are discretionary.
She wasn't even name-checked at the Mass I attended. I don't think I'd nodded off and wasn't paying attention.
Her absence stuck out like a sore thumb.
Not even in the Creed? (You said it was a Vigil Mass, so I’m guessing a Vigil Mass for Sunday, but maybe not.)
Saints might get a mention in the collect on their feast day depending on how important they are.
The big exception is that England and Wales dioceses have permission to include the Hail Mary in the intercessions. This started when the Liturgy was translated into English and the then Archbishop of Westminster was afraid people might forget it. This is unique to England and Wales.
Mary and the saints only appear in the Office on their feast days.
Popular piety is a different matter and will vary according to the local culture.
And I ask blessed Mary, ever-Virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.
Apologies to RCs if I've misquoted slightly.
EP2 'Have mercy on us all,we pray, that with the ever blessed Virgin Mary...... we may merit to be coheirs to eternal life.'
EP3 'May he make of us an eternal offering so that we may obtain an inheritance with your elect,especially with the most Blessed virgin Mary.........'
EP4 To all of us,your children, grant that we may enter into heavenly inheritance with the Blessed virgin Mary...'
There are other eucharistic prayers but they are rarely used. Either the priest made a mistake or GG had nodded off.
What confession was used at the Vigil Mass? AIUI, there are short responsorial forms (based on the Kyries) which don't mention Mary or the saints, and which can be used instead of the full version.
Did the priest deliberately omit mention of Mary during the Eucharistic Prayer, perhaps to avoid possible offence to non-RCs?
It's possible the priest was saying mass from memory and somehow skipped some part of the eucharistic prayers, I've certainly known this happen. If @Gamma Gamaliel isn't familiar with RC liturgy he may have noticed the missing mother of God, but perhaps not noticed other missing bits.
What about the confession, though?
Might have used one of the other forms of the penitential rite.
nor it is the sort of place where the celebrant might be thinking about non catholics coming in to the cathedral.
Yes, that's what I meant.
I think, as has been said, I either nodded off and missed the references or else the priest was going from memory and forgot. Either way, I've always noticed references to her in Eucharistic prayers when I've previously attended RC Masses.
The whole thing did feel rather spare and trimmed down and I'm sure there may well have been other bits missed out that I wouldn't have noticed due to a lack of familiarity.
In truth, we have mentioned Mary in the past too, and even some of the saints when the service falls on their day, but not in the sense of putting in an extra word on our behalf with you know whom--though Revelation seems to indicate they do.
Of note, beginning 27 November, the Roman church will begin using a new Missal. Not sure of all the details. This will be the first major change since 2002.
I can’t find any information about a new edition of the Missal, either the Latin edition or the English translation, in 2025. And this year, the first Sunday of Advent, when such things typically take effect, is November 30, not November 27.
A Google search suggests that the change is in the English translation used for Lectionary and Psalms. These seem to be moving to ESV.
The compulsory translation of the responsorial psalms is changing too, which is causing much tearing out of hair among musicians.
This seems an odd choice, given the heavy evangelical thumb on the scales of that translation.
Short answer: whilst they didn't invoke her prayers or the prayers of the Saints, I think it's fair to say that the 'Magisterial Reformers' and later figures like John Donne and John Wesley had a very palpable respect for Mary that isn't always articulated as strongly among contemporary Protestants.
That isn't to say that this has completely died out, as @Nick Tamen indicates from a Presbyterian perspective.
I don't know about Calvin but both Luther and Wesley believed in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.
But we are getting away from Ecclesiantic into Purgatorial territory I think. Probably my fault.
The problem arose in later generations, when Not Looking Like Catholics became the most important, inviolable rule.
And from a publishing standpoint going from UK based copyright holders of the JB and Grail Psalms to USA based copyright holders of the ESV and the Abbey Psalter adds complications.
It all seemed from some points of view to be a rather unnecessary exercise.
Sadly true.
Yes, I thought that. Sorry, RC Shipmates, but the 2011 Mass sounds terribly clunky in English. It doesn't seem so clunky in French - any ideas as to why that might be?
I've heard it suggested that the translators of the English version were not native speakers. Perhaps the translators of the French version were, or maybe translation into other Romance languages is easier for native Italian speakers than into Germanic languages.
Apparently the English is used as the urtext when translating into minority tribal languages where nobody can translate from Latin.
One of them is in the basic penitential prayer at the beginning of Mass in order to make it agree completely with the Latin form.
The second is in the prayer where the Latin form begins 'Orate,fratres'........ Since the French form began to be used over 50 years ago there was a simple verse and response
'Prions au moment d'offrir le sacrifice de toute l'église
Pour la gloire de Dieu et le salut du monde'
(Let us pray at the moment of offering the sacrifice of the whole church
For the glory of God and the salvation of the world)
Over the last year the words of this little prayer have been changed to an exact translation of the original Latin
Most days at 10 a.m. Central European time/9a.m. UK time . Mass is streamed from the grotto in Lourdes and is usually celebrated in French. Sometimes you will hear the 'new' form of the prayer and sometimes the older one. There is generally a louder response if the priest uses the older form.
Personally I think that many set prayers in almost any language can be clunky as they are often attempting to express ideas which can be complicated. This,for me, includes the Lord's prayer in its traditional English format. In time one gets used to the language and one hardly thinks about it
Certainly in Austria,the traditional texts of the Ordinary Kyrie,Gloria etc are either sung in Latin/Greek or very often in one of the many German language 'Singmessen' used since the 1700s e.g. Schubert's German Mass.
The RCC reversion to 'chalice' in stead of the 'cup' that everyone else uses to me is particularly clunky.
And now for the question:-
Am I the only person who queries whether 'Mother of God' might not be the best translation into English of 'Theotokos'. Yes, those that defend it will say, 'we are not Nestorians' and we aren't, but to me, in English the phrase always carries an implication, which is not in Theotokos, that Mary preexisted the Trinity.
This may be an oddity with English, rather than say French or German. I don't know.
When christianity came out of the shadows and became more or less THE religion in Europe the Council of Nicaea with the later additions at constantinople attempted to define exactly who Jesus Christ was (is and ever shall be). 'born of the Father before all ages,God from God,Light from light,true God from true God,begotten not made,...'
If Jesus was (is and ever shall be) God and Mary was His mother then she is the Mother of God. That, at least, was what the Council of Ephesus in 431 attempted to explain.
I understand Enoch's reluctance to say Mother of God but would suggest that he too,just as Catholics and Orthodox are, is bound by the cultural norms of his own form of Christianity.
If I understand Enoch is prepared to accept 'God bearer' as a title for Mary,but if Mary was indeed the 'God bearer' she was also the' mother' as surely she provided all the comforts of a mother throughout the human childhood of Jesus who was(is and ever shall be) God.
Latin often uses the term 'Dei Genitrix' for theotokos rather than 'mater Dei' and it appears at the end of a popular set Catholic prayer 'Salve Regina' with the words
'Ora pro nobis,sancta Dei genitrix'............
the German version of this prayer ends with
'bitte fuer uns,o heilige Gottegebaehrerin' instead of the more common 'Mutter Gottes'
'Gottegebaehrerin' = (female) bearer of God.
The English and French versions of this prayer (Hail,Holy Queen.........) end with
'pray for us,o holy Mother of God'
For what it’s worth.
I wonder if a key to understanding these terms is an ancient understanding that the father’s “seed” contained the future human, while the mother’s womb was the place for that seed to grow?
Indeed, and as far as I am aware, I don't think Luther had any problem with that either.