I am not particularly well-endowed, something I was sorry about in my youth but am grateful for now.
Same. Though I never understood why I was supposed to feel ashamed of small breasts - it's one of those things people make rude comments about when you're a teenager, and also there is lots of emphasis on big breasts being desirable, but it seems more about what men want! I'm definitely very grateful for being able to wear bralettes, and sometimes I don't wear any bra at all.
Lots of men who are attracted to women prefer small breasts. Men who are attracted to women vary just as much as other genders who are attracted to women - marketing assumptions about what men want doesn't actually resemble what men want, eg all the birthday cards for dads featuring golf or beer etc with nothing for dads who don't like stereotypical Card Dad Hobbies (which never seem to feature the hobbies of dads I know, eg pottery or Warhammer or making hot sauce).
That's an interesting way to interpret my post. I'm surprised because didn't occur to me that you'd think I believed every man who is attracted to women has the same taste in breasts. I don't know anyone who believes that - it would be an odd thing to believe, as the simplest contact with other people shows all humans are very different. I now wonder if I am somehow coming across utterly naive about the most simple things!
To clarify, yes, I know. To all you said. I am aware of all these things. I see it as not just marketing, but society and media in general, how people are socialised. It is of course sadly common for certain men to be very vocal about their reactions to breasts, and those vocal men tend to be the ones who are making comments of sexual attraction to big breasts, and comments of derision to small breasts. This is frequently seen in comments on photos on social media.
I see it as partly about men wanting to prove their masculinity, according to how they've been socialised, to avoid shame that they associate with certain attitudes. Maybe they've been ridiculed for doing/saying something that other guys saw as 'girly.' There are certain codes for being a tough alpha guy, and one is liking a woman with big breasts. Which is also why I don't see men being embarrassed at being in the women's underwear department as 'silly', as such. I understand it's very common to laugh at men for being silly because they're embarrassed about women's stuff, but I see see the embarrassment as part of a wider socialisation that can be harmful, can lead to incel groups, etc.
So when I said 'there is lots of emphasis on big breasts being desirable, but it seems more about what men want,' I was specifically talking about the societal idea that men like big breasts. But more importantly, my point was that women have been expected to want big breasts for the sake of men. Not for themselves, not because it's comfortable to have big breasts, but because of an idea that they will meet men's approval. Or avoid men's mockery. So many grew up with this implied aim for their bodies as the norm, as young teens, without at that time questioning. Nenya mentioned it, and I replied in solidarity, and my comment about it being about what men want was a way of acknowledging how screwed up these social norms were.
(I realise this is straying off topic, but I felt it important to clarify my point, as I realised that what you seemed to be responding to was very different from the point I was intending to make.)
Women go running in sports bras and small shorts all the time. You (general you) see people in basically underwear at the gym or on the beach all the time.
Yes, and many examples of beachwear (bikinis, speedos etc.) offer less coverage than many examples of underwear.
But it's a case of function and location, not one of coverage. A man on the beach in a pair of speedos is dressed for swimming. A man on the high street in a pair of boxers is embarrassingly undressed, even though more of his surface is covered far less tightly.
To first approximation, everyone wears underwear (and if someone doesn't, I don't really want to know). The particular modesty norms I have inherited have me happy to disrobe with men (in a communal changing room, for example), and unwilling to disrobe with women. Displaying underwear would be more or less equivalent to disrobing. And yes, I'll go to reasonable lengths to ensure that any visiting women aren't presented with a view of my (unworn, and decidedly functional) underwear.
For example, back in my student days, I'd often have clothes drying on the radiator in my room ('cause I'd run out of money for the dryer). If what was hanging up was underwear, and if a woman came around to ask questions about this week's work or whatever, I'd throw a towel over it. If I happened to call on a female friend, and she had some underwear lying around, I'd look in another direction.
The psychotherapeutic term for this, is having boundaries. We have different boundaries for different cohorts of people, as well as different individuals depending on the kind of relationship we have with them specifically.
I also have never owned a dryer, for eco reasons. I used to dry clothing on the radiators or a clothes horse near one (as noted, usually hot water central heating in the UK) but these days I use a traditional pulley area over the stairs. There does need to be ventilation though and sometimes in the winter we put a small dehumidifier on.
No more risk than hanging your damp towel back up on a heated towel rail to dry off after use. In my experience, the towel rail stays hotter for longer than the radiators do.
It's generally considered a bad idea to have your radiators at a temperature to scald flesh, much less scorch fabric. Water will commonly leave the boiler at ~45-50°C.
I don’t get why men can’t go to look around the rest of the store or go and have a coffee whilst their partner is trying on bras. I actually don’t get why men need to hanging around outside fitting rooms anyway, though I know some people like to get their partner’s reaction to a dress, but a woman does not come out of the fitting room wearing lingerie for approval.
I also don’t get why many news presenters, weather presenters etc wear garments which reveal excessive amounts of cleavage. Is it to distract male viewers from the awfulness of much of the news?
I also don’t get why many news presenters, weather presenters etc wear garments which reveal excessive amounts of cleavage. Is it to distract male viewers from the awfulness of much of the news?
I also don’t get why many news presenters, weather presenters etc wear garments which reveal excessive amounts of cleavage. Is it to distract male viewers from the awfulness of much of the news?
They are at work, so presumably their choice of clothing reflects what the workplace deems appropriate, so you might need to consider the power structures within broadcasting.
(I have a friend who used to work for the BBC at one time. She cynically remarked that to get on you either needed to be called Dimbleby or Magnusson or Snow or have big tits).
I don’t get why men can’t go to look around the rest of the store or go and have a coffee whilst their partner is trying on bras. I actually don’t get why men need to hanging around outside fitting rooms anyway, though I know some people like to get their partner’s reaction to a dress, but a woman does not come out of the fitting room wearing lingerie for approval.
Why would I look around the rest of the store? There's nothing I want to look at.
If I just sit and wait outside the fitting room, then when you're done, we're done, and can move on to the next thing. If I go and do something else, then now we have to arrange to reconnect, which is more hassle and takes longer. So unless there's something else I actually need to do, if I'm there, I'm probably just going to sit and wait.
Comments
That's an interesting way to interpret my post. I'm surprised because didn't occur to me that you'd think I believed every man who is attracted to women has the same taste in breasts. I don't know anyone who believes that - it would be an odd thing to believe, as the simplest contact with other people shows all humans are very different. I now wonder if I am somehow coming across utterly naive about the most simple things!
To clarify, yes, I know. To all you said. I am aware of all these things. I see it as not just marketing, but society and media in general, how people are socialised. It is of course sadly common for certain men to be very vocal about their reactions to breasts, and those vocal men tend to be the ones who are making comments of sexual attraction to big breasts, and comments of derision to small breasts. This is frequently seen in comments on photos on social media.
I see it as partly about men wanting to prove their masculinity, according to how they've been socialised, to avoid shame that they associate with certain attitudes. Maybe they've been ridiculed for doing/saying something that other guys saw as 'girly.' There are certain codes for being a tough alpha guy, and one is liking a woman with big breasts. Which is also why I don't see men being embarrassed at being in the women's underwear department as 'silly', as such. I understand it's very common to laugh at men for being silly because they're embarrassed about women's stuff, but I see see the embarrassment as part of a wider socialisation that can be harmful, can lead to incel groups, etc.
So when I said 'there is lots of emphasis on big breasts being desirable, but it seems more about what men want,' I was specifically talking about the societal idea that men like big breasts. But more importantly, my point was that women have been expected to want big breasts for the sake of men. Not for themselves, not because it's comfortable to have big breasts, but because of an idea that they will meet men's approval. Or avoid men's mockery. So many grew up with this implied aim for their bodies as the norm, as young teens, without at that time questioning. Nenya mentioned it, and I replied in solidarity, and my comment about it being about what men want was a way of acknowledging how screwed up these social norms were.
(I realise this is straying off topic, but I felt it important to clarify my point, as I realised that what you seemed to be responding to was very different from the point I was intending to make.)
Yes, and many examples of beachwear (bikinis, speedos etc.) offer less coverage than many examples of underwear.
But it's a case of function and location, not one of coverage. A man on the beach in a pair of speedos is dressed for swimming. A man on the high street in a pair of boxers is embarrassingly undressed, even though more of his surface is covered far less tightly.
To first approximation, everyone wears underwear (and if someone doesn't, I don't really want to know). The particular modesty norms I have inherited have me happy to disrobe with men (in a communal changing room, for example), and unwilling to disrobe with women. Displaying underwear would be more or less equivalent to disrobing. And yes, I'll go to reasonable lengths to ensure that any visiting women aren't presented with a view of my (unworn, and decidedly functional) underwear.
For example, back in my student days, I'd often have clothes drying on the radiator in my room ('cause I'd run out of money for the dryer). If what was hanging up was underwear, and if a woman came around to ask questions about this week's work or whatever, I'd throw a towel over it. If I happened to call on a female friend, and she had some underwear lying around, I'd look in another direction.
No - there is no element in a radiator, just hot water.
Dehumidifier needed if drying clothes indoors 'tho.
It's a very normal way of drying small items in the UK when it's too damp to hang them outside. I've never owned a drier.
I've never owned a dryer either. I am reminded of this clip from Sarah Millican!
No more risk than hanging your damp towel back up on a heated towel rail to dry off after use. In my experience, the towel rail stays hotter for longer than the radiators do.
It's generally considered a bad idea to have your radiators at a temperature to scald flesh, much less scorch fabric. Water will commonly leave the boiler at ~45-50°C.
I also don’t get why many news presenters, weather presenters etc wear garments which reveal excessive amounts of cleavage. Is it to distract male viewers from the awfulness of much of the news?
Sorry, couldn't resist a feed like that.
They are at work, so presumably their choice of clothing reflects what the workplace deems appropriate, so you might need to consider the power structures within broadcasting.
(I have a friend who used to work for the BBC at one time. She cynically remarked that to get on you either needed to be called Dimbleby or Magnusson or Snow or have big tits).
Why would I look around the rest of the store? There's nothing I want to look at.
If I just sit and wait outside the fitting room, then when you're done, we're done, and can move on to the next thing. If I go and do something else, then now we have to arrange to reconnect, which is more hassle and takes longer. So unless there's something else I actually need to do, if I'm there, I'm probably just going to sit and wait.