To come back to the original question posed by this thread ...
Yes, I think it has.
Does that mean that ecumenical interaction is on the wane?
Not necessarily. I think it is happening but in a different way.
No disrespect to joint services or inter-church prayer initiatives, but these things can be just as much token gestures as senior clergy signing forms and making declarations.
I'm not sure what form ecumenical dialogue and cooperation should take and imagine it will vary from place to place. I'm not convinced that labelling a particular week as a Week of Prayer for Christian Unity really helps bring that about.
Which isn't to say it's a waste of time. If people forge genuine relationships across traditions and denominations as a result then that's all to the good as it leads to mutual trust, respect and understanding.
Which is great.
But it depends on what we are expecting it to achieve.
I wonder if our local Methodists have taken the initiative in the hope that some Anglicans, or indeed any other Christians, though there is no other church in town, may take up the invitation, especially as the service will not clash with any others. Now that the Anglican Vicar has moved on, maybe Anglicans will feel freer to attend and re-forge relationships between the two churches.
I wonder if our local Methodists have taken the initiative in the hope that some Anglicans, or indeed any other Christians, though there is no other church in town, may take up the invitation, especially as the service will not clash with any others. Now that the Anglican Vicar has moved on, maybe Anglicans will feel freer to attend and re-forge relationships between the two churches.
The URCs are hosting the annual Unity Week service this year on wednesday. I expect my wife will go. I won't. I get very fidgety in church unless I am doing music. But she will report back on numbers. Holy Week is when the main shared services happen around here.
Was the previous vicar against joint services with the Methodists, @puzzler?
If so, that's unusual in my experience of Anglicans but you can find some sniffy types at both the snake-belly low end and the stratospheric end of the spectrum.
The Orthodox don't tend to go in for 'joint services' I'm afraid although individuals might. Our Holy Week doesn't always coincide with everyone else's - and some Protestant churches barely observe it at all. With the best will in the world our Holy Week is so full-on most of us wouldn't have time to join in with anything else.
Joint services and prayer are one aspect though, there are other ways of collaborating across theological or denominational boundaries.
It seems right to keep alive the prayer of Jesus that we might all be one. On typeface of it, the week of prayer for Christian unity does that. But I'm wondering whether it might be better to have a focussed activity which demonstrates something with Christians of different denominations might agree is a Good Thing.
Just as a couple of examples, how about fund raising for clean water needs, or medical help for children born with cleft palates? Loads of other examples come to mind so it would seem possible to have a different theme every year. Concrete examples might have more impetus than abstract hope.
I suppose it sounds a bit like the UK's annual Children in Need event which definitely catches the public imagination in this country and has raised loads of money over the decades it's been running. I don't see anything wrong with that.
There must have been unanimity on the necessity of that.
To be honest, I can't see that many Christians taking issue with that initiative but there're always some awkward-squadders.
Local initiatives are a lot easier to set up than regional or global ones, of course.
A week of prayer for Christian unity? Probably answering an aspiration which is no longer defined in the same terms it once was... so yes, it's probably run its course.
I can't help but wonder if the heyday of the ecumenism movement was in the 1970s- what has changed most since? Many ministers/vicars/pastors had just one church then, and so could work realistically in a local area & get to know their local ecumenical colleagues. Now we have several churches each often spread over a large area, and so our efforts are more driven by necessity of trying to get the our own multitudinous congregations to acknowledge one anothers' existence.
I can't help but wonder if the heyday of the ecumenism movement was in the 1970s- what has changed most since? Many ministers/vicars/pastors had just one church then, and so could work realistically in a local area & get to know their local ecumenical colleagues. Now we have several churches each often spread over a large area, and so our efforts are more driven by necessity of trying to get the our own multitudinous congregations to acknowledge one anothers' existence.
That certainly seems to be true of some C of E benefices, spread out over maybe 10 or 12 separate churches (between each of which is a great gulf fixed, as you imply), although it may be the case in rural areas that other denominations are conspicuous in any case by their sheer absence, their chapels having been closed over a period of many years.
I think you're right about the 1960s/1970s heyday. What happened to the vision of the coming 'Great Church'?
ISTM that the best any church can do, as the sea of faith recedes ever further, is to try to keep the 'rumour of God' alive on its own patch, working with others as far as it can.
Working across one of the most rural areas of Wales, I still find myself able to take a more positive view of the future. The 'failure' to achieve structural unity between denominations in the 60s/70s doesn't really feel like a failure, since even at the time I remember wondering whether the right goal was being aimed at.
The tide of faith has receded before, notably in the C18 when rural churches were allowed to tumble into ruin, while even Kilvert, in the 1870s heyday of rural church/chapel-going, records days when there were only three or four in his congregation.
I tell people that the Christian faith has been in these communities for pretty much 1500 years, and I don't see it disappearing any time soon.
Optimist, moi? Well, possibly, but I'm not sure I'm alone.
It seems to me that the high point of formal ecumenism was in the 1970s; and much of what was done then has enabled the more informal inter-church relationships of today. However the mainstream" churches that were ecumenically involved are much declined; many new churches have been formed; and the desire for structural unity has evaporated.
Is Christian Unity, at least in the traditional sense, (I speak from a British perspective) a dead duck, and the Week of Prayer a forlorn hope of fanning the embers?
(PS Please forgive the mixed metaphor!)
Unfortunately, my experience with Week of Prayer for Christian Unity (as well as Women's World Day of Prayer) is consistent with yours. It had been observed locally, in small town and urban settings, with a fair degree of enthusiasm which has waned or vanished.
I think the main driver is the decline in mainline denominations' congregations. Often they barely have energy to sustain themselves, let alone summon up the will to connect with other local churches, and even further off on the horizon are any thoughts of structural unity.
Was the previous vicar against joint services with the Methodists, @puzzler?
If so, that's unusual in my experience of Anglicans but you can find some sniffy types at both the snake-belly low end and the stratospheric end of the spectrum.
We need to do what we can.
Absolutely, @Gamma Gamaliel . He was so low, he was scarcely an Anglican. No robes, minimal liturgy. Ultra conservative evangelical, non-charismatic, anti most things except his own version of Christianity. 45 people left during his first year in post. He withdrew from all joint community work, eg services in care homes, council prayers, Remembrance day and Good Friday on the market square, children’s holiday club etc.
I watch and wait with interest but I guess the local covenant between the churches will not be reinstated whilst the Anglican church is in vacancy.
I'm just back from our Week of Prayer for Christian Unity service. Not that well attended about twenty to thirty of us, but nicely done and the homily from our assistant priest that I was dreading as he can ramble on for ours was concise and good. I could have done without the 'Jesus is my boyfriend' type hymns, but everyone else seemed OK so I guess it was just me.
Well, a service of unity surely needs to include a variety of music, not all of which will be to everyone's taste. Glad it went well - but did the congregation include more than the usual faithful ecumenical enthusiasts?
Was the previous vicar against joint services with the Methodists, @puzzler?
If so, that's unusual in my experience of Anglicans but you can find some sniffy types at both the snake-belly low end and the stratospheric end of the spectrum.
We need to do what we can.
Absolutely, @Gamma Gamaliel . He was so low, he was scarcely an Anglican. No robes, minimal liturgy. Ultra conservative evangelical, non-charismatic, anti most things except his own version of Christianity. 45 people left during his first year in post. He withdrew from all joint community work, eg services in care homes, council prayers, Remembrance day and Good Friday on the market square, children’s holiday club etc.
I watch and wait with interest but I guess the local covenant between the churches will not be reinstated whilst the Anglican church is in vacancy.
Having been a part of several conservative evangelical Anglican churches, what you describe sounds unusually anti-ecumenical even for conservative evangelicals - certainly none I know would want to withdraw from opportunities to be involved in civic events like Remembrance Day and council prayers, and would indeed see them as important evangelistic opportunities. I think it might be more of an, ahem, personal quirk in the case of this vicar.
I can't help but wonder if the heyday of the ecumenism movement was in the 1970s- what has changed most since? Many ministers/vicars/pastors had just one church then, and so could work realistically in a local area & get to know their local ecumenical colleagues. Now we have several churches each often spread over a large area, and so our efforts are more driven by necessity of trying to get the our own multitudinous congregations to acknowledge one anothers' existence.
People were also much more likely to be local to their church, rather than driving from sometimes quite far away to attend a specific denomination or flavour of church.
One giant step among mainline Protestants I associate with is the quiet dropping the filioque clause in the Nicene Creed. This was agreed to in dialogues with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The people in the pew don't seem to notice it when we recite the original Nicene Creed.
I agree true unity will never be achieved this side of eternity, but it is still something to strive for.
One giant step among mainline Protestants I associate with is the quiet dropping the filioque clause in the Nicene Creed. This was agreed to in dialogues with our Orthodox brothers and sisters.
It is a noteworthy (and I think good) step in some mainline churches. It seems like a bit of an overstatement to say “mainline Protestants” generally. The only mainline Protestant church I’m aware of having an actual agreement with Eastern Orthodox Christians on the matter is the Episcopal Church. Does the ELCA, through the Lutheran World Federation or otherwise, have such an agreement?
The PC(USA) does not, and it gets complicated for us as the Nicene Creed—specifically the English Language Liturgical Consultation version with the Filioque—is contained in our Book of Confessions, which is part of our constitution. (Editorial material in the Book of Confessions does highlight the Filioque issue.) To change it would require General Assembly approval to proceed with study and creation of a committee to study and make recommendations on the proposed revision, approval of the proposed amendment by a later General Assembly, ratification by 2/3 of the presbyteries, and then a second approval of the amendment by the next General Assembly.
That’s not to say that couldn’t happen, nor is it to say that a congregation might not decide to use a version that doesn’t contain the Filioque. But the reality is that currently it is the Nicene Creed with the Filioque is what has officially status.
Comments
Yes, I think it has.
Does that mean that ecumenical interaction is on the wane?
Not necessarily. I think it is happening but in a different way.
No disrespect to joint services or inter-church prayer initiatives, but these things can be just as much token gestures as senior clergy signing forms and making declarations.
I'm not sure what form ecumenical dialogue and cooperation should take and imagine it will vary from place to place. I'm not convinced that labelling a particular week as a Week of Prayer for Christian Unity really helps bring that about.
Which isn't to say it's a waste of time. If people forge genuine relationships across traditions and denominations as a result then that's all to the good as it leads to mutual trust, respect and understanding.
Which is great.
But it depends on what we are expecting it to achieve.
That's a possibility for next year, hopefully!
If so, that's unusual in my experience of Anglicans but you can find some sniffy types at both the snake-belly low end and the stratospheric end of the spectrum.
The Orthodox don't tend to go in for 'joint services' I'm afraid although individuals might. Our Holy Week doesn't always coincide with everyone else's - and some Protestant churches barely observe it at all. With the best will in the world our Holy Week is so full-on most of us wouldn't have time to join in with anything else.
Joint services and prayer are one aspect though, there are other ways of collaborating across theological or denominational boundaries.
We need to do what we can.
Nothing has appeared on the notice sheet this year..
Just as a couple of examples, how about fund raising for clean water needs, or medical help for children born with cleft palates? Loads of other examples come to mind so it would seem possible to have a different theme every year. Concrete examples might have more impetus than abstract hope.
I suppose it sounds a bit like the UK's annual Children in Need event which definitely catches the public imagination in this country and has raised loads of money over the decades it's been running. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Getting everyone to agree on what charitable cause or social initiative to support would be an enormous challenge, though.
I've met Christian climate-change deniers who wouldn't support anything environmental.
And full-on evangelicals who wouldn't support anything that wasn't directly to do with mission/evangelism in the 'converting people' sense.
So good luck with that...
There must have been unanimity on the necessity of that.
To be honest, I can't see that many Christians taking issue with that initiative but there're always some awkward-squadders.
Local initiatives are a lot easier to set up than regional or global ones, of course.
A week of prayer for Christian unity? Probably answering an aspiration which is no longer defined in the same terms it once was... so yes, it's probably run its course.
That certainly seems to be true of some C of E benefices, spread out over maybe 10 or 12 separate churches (between each of which is a great gulf fixed, as you imply), although it may be the case in rural areas that other denominations are conspicuous in any case by their sheer absence, their chapels having been closed over a period of many years.
I think you're right about the 1960s/1970s heyday. What happened to the vision of the coming 'Great Church'?
ISTM that the best any church can do, as the sea of faith recedes ever further, is to try to keep the 'rumour of God' alive on its own patch, working with others as far as it can.
The tide of faith has receded before, notably in the C18 when rural churches were allowed to tumble into ruin, while even Kilvert, in the 1870s heyday of rural church/chapel-going, records days when there were only three or four in his congregation.
I tell people that the Christian faith has been in these communities for pretty much 1500 years, and I don't see it disappearing any time soon.
Optimist, moi? Well, possibly, but I'm not sure I'm alone.
Unfortunately, my experience with Week of Prayer for Christian Unity (as well as Women's World Day of Prayer) is consistent with yours. It had been observed locally, in small town and urban settings, with a fair degree of enthusiasm which has waned or vanished.
I think the main driver is the decline in mainline denominations' congregations. Often they barely have energy to sustain themselves, let alone summon up the will to connect with other local churches, and even further off on the horizon are any thoughts of structural unity.
Absolutely, @Gamma Gamaliel . He was so low, he was scarcely an Anglican. No robes, minimal liturgy. Ultra conservative evangelical, non-charismatic, anti most things except his own version of Christianity. 45 people left during his first year in post. He withdrew from all joint community work, eg services in care homes, council prayers, Remembrance day and Good Friday on the market square, children’s holiday club etc.
I watch and wait with interest but I guess the local covenant between the churches will not be reinstated whilst the Anglican church is in vacancy.
Having been a part of several conservative evangelical Anglican churches, what you describe sounds unusually anti-ecumenical even for conservative evangelicals - certainly none I know would want to withdraw from opportunities to be involved in civic events like Remembrance Day and council prayers, and would indeed see them as important evangelistic opportunities. I think it might be more of an, ahem, personal quirk in the case of this vicar.
People were also much more likely to be local to their church, rather than driving from sometimes quite far away to attend a specific denomination or flavour of church.
I agree true unity will never be achieved this side of eternity, but it is still something to strive for.
The PC(USA) does not, and it gets complicated for us as the Nicene Creed—specifically the English Language Liturgical Consultation version with the Filioque—is contained in our Book of Confessions, which is part of our constitution. (Editorial material in the Book of Confessions does highlight the Filioque issue.) To change it would require General Assembly approval to proceed with study and creation of a committee to study and make recommendations on the proposed revision, approval of the proposed amendment by a later General Assembly, ratification by 2/3 of the presbyteries, and then a second approval of the amendment by the next General Assembly.
That’s not to say that couldn’t happen, nor is it to say that a congregation might not decide to use a version that doesn’t contain the Filioque. But the reality is that currently it is the Nicene Creed with the Filioque is what has officially status.