Guidance and discernment
Gamma Gamaliel
Shipmate
in Purgatory
I'm starting this new thread as a spin-off from the 'substitutionary atonement' one where issues of trust in various 'authorities' came up. The context was the extent to which we can trust the collective witness of various 'takes' on the atonement as Christians seem to hold very varied views on what it entails.
This then developed into comments about apparent 'divine guidance' which led down blind-alleys or people 'prophesying' that someone would recover from an illness only for the opposite to happen - etc etc.
@Doublethink suggested that one of the reasons why we operate in 'community' is to provide some kind of checks and balances when it comes to 'discernment' - rather than relying on our own individual predilections.
There was then an exchange between @Lamb Chopped and myself on the issue of 'trusting' and 'testing' for ourselves the sayings of Christ as recorded in the Gospels - specifically the 'wisdom' saying but broadening out from those somewhat. My view was that the 'wisdom sayings' were pretty much axiomatic. Most people would agree on the wisdom of those.
We hold our Sunday school in a hired scout-hut very close to our church building. When I was there earlier today I noticed the 'value-statements' and so on posted around the walls and pondered how Sermon on the Mount-ish most of them were.
'We hold these truths to be self-evident ....' as it were.
Anyway, enough preamble. What I'd like to explore here are issues of discernment and indeed 'guidance' - or 'divine guidance' for those of us who believe in the possibility of such a thing.
Like others here, I've had my fingers burned in Christian traditions where people presume to know the mind of the Almighty on often mundane or quotidian issues, yet I remain open to the possibility of God leading or guiding people in certain directions.
I was struck by how many of us felt that @Jengie Jon's 'call' to a more monastic vocation was genuine, for instance.
There's the intriguing line from Acts 15:28 how, 'it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us':
https://biblehub.com/acts/15-28.htm
How does this process work?
I've been impressed by what my Quaker friends - Friend friends (ha ha!) - tell me about the processes they use to discern new directions or resolve knotty matters. I'm sure there are other examples from other traditions.
It won't all be putative 'prophecies' that turn out to be duds.
I recognise that we 'know in part' and 'prophesy in part' as it were but I'm interested in exploring this area a bit more - with the usual caveats about people only sharing what they feel comfortable with.
This then developed into comments about apparent 'divine guidance' which led down blind-alleys or people 'prophesying' that someone would recover from an illness only for the opposite to happen - etc etc.
@Doublethink suggested that one of the reasons why we operate in 'community' is to provide some kind of checks and balances when it comes to 'discernment' - rather than relying on our own individual predilections.
There was then an exchange between @Lamb Chopped and myself on the issue of 'trusting' and 'testing' for ourselves the sayings of Christ as recorded in the Gospels - specifically the 'wisdom' saying but broadening out from those somewhat. My view was that the 'wisdom sayings' were pretty much axiomatic. Most people would agree on the wisdom of those.
We hold our Sunday school in a hired scout-hut very close to our church building. When I was there earlier today I noticed the 'value-statements' and so on posted around the walls and pondered how Sermon on the Mount-ish most of them were.
'We hold these truths to be self-evident ....' as it were.
Anyway, enough preamble. What I'd like to explore here are issues of discernment and indeed 'guidance' - or 'divine guidance' for those of us who believe in the possibility of such a thing.
Like others here, I've had my fingers burned in Christian traditions where people presume to know the mind of the Almighty on often mundane or quotidian issues, yet I remain open to the possibility of God leading or guiding people in certain directions.
I was struck by how many of us felt that @Jengie Jon's 'call' to a more monastic vocation was genuine, for instance.
There's the intriguing line from Acts 15:28 how, 'it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us':
https://biblehub.com/acts/15-28.htm
How does this process work?
I've been impressed by what my Quaker friends - Friend friends (ha ha!) - tell me about the processes they use to discern new directions or resolve knotty matters. I'm sure there are other examples from other traditions.
It won't all be putative 'prophecies' that turn out to be duds.
I recognise that we 'know in part' and 'prophesy in part' as it were but I'm interested in exploring this area a bit more - with the usual caveats about people only sharing what they feel comfortable with.
Comments
Seems like you quoted a small verse from a larger story, that being how Judaizers where insisting on Gentile converts having to undergo Jewish circumcision, and the council of Jerusalem meeting to discern where the Holy Spirit is leading the church.
But, that's okay.
However, I would expand the gift of discernment to mean not just for the good of the church, but for the good of the community at large and also for individuals seeking answers. I would think most mental health professions and most people in the medical field will say discernment is an important tool in their profession. Discernment is an important tool in many professions. But it can be used for the good of the community, or it can be used for selfish reasons.
I am working on the sermon for next week. I came across the story of a stockbroker in 1938. Now stockbrokers use discernment to make a profit for their clients and themselves, but this stockbroker cut short a ski trip to Czechoslovakia when he discerned many Jewish families desperate to get out of the country before the borders closed. He began a campaign to bring abandoned Jewish children out of that country. In the end he was able to bring out 669 Jewish children before the Nazis close the border. He kept a scrapbook of his exploits but he put it in the attic and said nothing more about it. 50 years later, his wife found the scrap book and gave it to a BBC reporter. The BBC developed a program about this man's heroics and invited him to be in the audience when they showed it. After showing the story, the MC asked the audience if anyone of them were touched by this man. Everyone stood up. They were the children he brought out of Czechoslovakia. The man wept. The world wept with him. He was knighted by the Queen and was declared a righteous man by Israel. His name was Sir Nicolus Winton. He used his powers of discernment and perceived a need he could address. His skills as a stockbroker helped him finance the whole effort. That is the discernment I am talking about.
The Orthodox would apply that to all the major Church Councils they recognise of course.
Baptists and Congregationalists would make a similar claim about their 'church meeting' process at a micro-level, the congregation collectively discerning the mind of Christ on an issue within the local church.
I'm also aware of the Nicolas Winton story. I do live in the UK you know and remember the incident with the TV programme - although I didn't see it when it was first screened. It caused quite a stir and there was a lot of media coverage at the time. It was later made into a film starring Anthony Hopkins as the older Winton.
FWIW, my wife's paternal grandparents had the 'discernment' to adopt two Jewish children through the 'Kinder Transport' scheme after they'd seen Hitler Youth beating up an old Jewish man during a trip to Hamburg. Her grandfather was a complete atheist so wouldn't have claimed any form of 'divine guidance' of course - although clearly most theists would regard him as doing God's will whether he was aware of it or not.
By citing Acts 15:28 I'm not restricting any exploration of the 'discernment process' to church circles or theological matters. All truth is God's truth. All acts of mercy are acts of mercy.
As a spin-off from a thread where issues of 'divine guidance' were mentioned, I did have specifically churchy or Christian issues in mind, but not exclusively.
I appreciate your post and your motivation but again I'm afraid I find your tone rather preachy. It's not as if I need to be told the context of Acts 15:28 or listen to a lecture on Nicolas Winton. Save that for your congregation please.