Reform(ed)

I heard that the United Reformed Church (URC) magazine, which has always gone by the name 'Reform' is changing it's name to 'Reformed' so as not to be confused with a certain controversial up and coming political party.

Is this a good idea to be applauded? Sad but necessary? Or what?

What other examples can you think of where the name of a religious entity has changed in response to secular politics? Another one that springs to my mind is a Baptist Church in my town that used to be called 'Mount Zion Baptist Church' but is now simply known as xxxxx rd Baptist Church.

Comments

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited May 19
    Not sure if the new name has been thought out. "Reformed" sounds past tense. I would think many theologians of that persuasion would say the denomination is aways Reforming.

    Concerning my denomination, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) we had a magazine entitled The Lutheran. Kind of static. It ceased publication a couple of years ago. However, another publication has started up. It is entitled Living Lutheran.

    Dealing with the name of the denomination, there have been calls from time to time to drop the Evangelical part of the name mainly because of the connotations Evangelical has in American society. Evangelical implies fundamentalist, conservative literal in interpretation. However, there has been pushback to that idea. At the time of the Reformation, the people who subscribed to the Augsburg Confession preferred the name Evangelical. It is still the name of the Lutheran Church in Germany. Most Lutheran bodies do include the "Evangelical" title in their formal names.

    I did participate in the renaming of our local synod (diocese). We had been known as the Eastern Washington-Idaho-Wyoming synod, but we had added a couple of congregations from Eastern Oregon, making the name obsolete. After several brainstorming sessions, the synod assembly settled on a new name, the Northwest Intermountain Synod which better reflects our geographical area.

    There are some congregations who have removed the Lutheran name on their buildings. I have mixed feelings about this, though I am currently serving a congregation that changed its name to xxx Community Church. It merged a Lutheran congregation with a Presbyterian Congregation, so it was a reasonable move.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 19
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Not sure if the new name has been thought out. "Reformed" sounds past tense.
    Not to someone who is Reformed. I mean, the name of the denomination is the United Reformed Church, which is part of the Reformed tradition and a member body of the World Communion of Reformed Churches. “Reformed” is who we are and how we see ourselves.

    I would think many theologians of that persuasion would say the denomination is aways Reforming.
    In my experience, they would not say that; indeed, they’d say that’s wrong. Rather, they’d say the denomination/tradition is always being reformed.* That’s different from always reforming.


    * The phrase being ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbi Dei—“the church reformed, always being reformed according to the Word of God.”
    I can see why the change is being made. I guess I’d file it under “sad but necessary.”

  • SipechSipech Shipmate
    I've not been a member of the URC, but have visited on many occasions and am highly, if not wholly, sympathetic to their theology, though have never heard it referred to as Reform. URC was always the preferred term. I can't imagine there could ever be a legal case of "passing off" with regards to the title.

    The church I grew up in has changed its name multiple times. I knew it as New Covenant Church as a child, but the leadership opted to change it as there was a larger church network (might be somewhere America, I don't recall the precise details) called the Church of the New Covenant that the pastor and elders didn't want to be associated with. So it was renamed to [name of road] Baptist Church, which is what it had been called many decades before.

    Now it's Christ Church [name of town] though that renaming was done some time after I'd left.
  • Not addressing @Gracious Rebel's OP, but picking up on the thread's digression, The Uniting Church in Australia is just that, note the present continuous. When, in 1977, Methodists, most Congregationalists, and half of the Presbyterians came together to form the Uniting Church, it was (and is) their hope that the process of organic church union would be ongoing.
  • Sipech wrote: »
    I've not been a member of the URC, but have visited on many occasions and am highly, if not wholly, sympathetic to their theology, though have never heard it referred to as Reform. URC was always the preferred term.

    To clarify, it's not the denomination that was called Reform but their magazine.

  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    In my view it would have been better to adopt a completely new name for the magazine formerly called Reform.

    Churches which change their names may have valid reasons to do so, probably about the image they wish to communicate to those in the area, but it would be helpful if, in their small print and on their website, they make clear their denomination / affiliation for those who want to know what their background is.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Disambiguation helps people make distinctions, and understand what is being said.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Puzzler wrote: »
    In my view it would have been better to adopt a completely new name for the magazine formerly called Reform.
    Why? The United Reformed Church is Reformed, it's one of the defining characteristics of the denomination. Using that word as the name for the magazine emphasises that characteristic, around which the churches that formed the URC united around. I'm no longer a member of the URC after our wee church closed a couple of years back, but I can't think of another suitable name for the magazine. "Reformed" is a suitable name change IMO.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Not sure if the new name has been thought out. "Reformed" sounds past tense.
    Not to someone who is Reformed. I mean, the name of the denomination is the United Reformed Church, which is part of the Reformed tradition and a member body of the World Communion of Reformed Churches. “Reformed” is who we are and how we see ourselves.

    I would think many theologians of that persuasion would say the denomination is aways Reforming.
    In my experience, they would not say that; indeed, they’d say that’s wrong. Rather, they’d say the denomination/tradition is always being reformed.* That’s different from always reforming.
    "Reforming" has a connotation of what the church is doing. "Being Reformed" is much more about what is happening to the church, by the action of God.

    Some similar churches in other nations will use "uniting" rather than "united" as a statement of intent to continue uniting with other churches, but even where "united" is used there's an acknowledgement that it's an ongoing process rather than a historical fact (since the URC formed it has united with at least two other church groups, and there have been conversations about whether to seek further unions - on the ground, many URC churches are already united with other denominations).
  • I've heard the URC referred to as both 'The United Reform Church' and 'The United Reformed Church.' So there's a degree of confusion out there.

    It's more conservative critics always used to refer to it as, 'Neither United nor Reformed ...'

    For them Reformed meant Five-Point TULIP Calvinism.

    I can understand why they would wish to change the title of their denominational magazine and agree with @Alan Cresswell that 'Reformed' would be a suitable name.

    As, I hope, an intriguing aside, I've recently heard people say that the term 'Catholicism' carries the implication of 'working towards catholicity or universality.' Likewise, shock horror, I've even heard an Orthodox ecumenist say that the term 'Orthodoxy' carries the implication of 'working towards Orthodoxy, rather than it being something to which we have actually 'arrived.'

    How that echoes, meshes or correlates with 'semper reformanda' is way above my pay-grade.

    But as for the name of the magazine, sure, I think 'Reformed' would do the job and I can't think of anything else that wouldn't sound too vague. Something like Together or Inspire would sound as if it could come from anywhere.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Not sure if the new name has been thought out. "Reformed" sounds past tense.
    Not to someone who is Reformed. I mean, the name of the denomination is the United Reformed Church, which is part of the Reformed tradition and a member body of the World Communion of Reformed Churches. “Reformed” is who we are and how we see ourselves.

    I would think many theologians of that persuasion would say the denomination is aways Reforming.
    In my experience, they would not say that; indeed, they’d say that’s wrong. Rather, they’d say the denomination/tradition is always being reformed.* That’s different from always reforming.
    "Reforming" has a connotation of what the church is doing. "Being Reformed" is much more about what is happening to the church, by the action of God.
    Exactly, and that, along with the Latin grammar of the phrase I quoted above, is exactly why theologians in my experience take pains to say the church is “always being reformed,” not “always reforming.”


  • An outraged Orthodox convert once snapped at me, 'The Church is the Body of Christ! How can it be 'reformed'?'

    Whatever we think of that, it does beg a few questions as to what continuing 'reform' looks like, how we recognise it and how we achieve some kind of consensus as to when it's happened, what reform 'looks like' and whether it's gone far enough, too far or ...

    These are obviously questions not only for internal debate within the Reformed tradition itself, but more widely across the Christian spectrum.

    Are the Reformed expecting other Christian traditions to follow suit?

    Are non-Reformed traditions expecting the Reformed to conform and not to continue to 'reform'?

    What do we do when some parts of Christendom are bent on continually 'reforming' everything and anything according to a consensus on an understanding of the 'word of God' which not everyone is going to share?

    Are they expecting everyone else to play 'catch-up'?

    Or are those who don't feel that things need to be 'reformed' expecting them to do a U-turn?

    What checks and balances are there on how far or otherwise to go on 'reforming' things? Who decides? How do we recognise it when we get there - wherever 'there' is?

    Does being Reformed inevitably lead to dozens of competing groups all claiming to be more Reformed than the others?

    The reverse can happen in older Christian traditions of course. 'We are more Orthodox than that group ...' 'We are the real Catholics / Anglicans / Whatever else ...'

    Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not knocking the Reformed tradition, it's produced and no doubt will produce many outstanding theologians, scholars, missionaries and good eggs.

    I'm just wondering what continual 'reform' looks like and how we recognise it when we see it.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    For me, "Reform" has many facets, but mostly it's an acknowledgement that our understanding of God, and how we should worship and live in light of that, may be wrong. It's about being open to change if that's where we find God calling us rather than necessarily changing, and being open to accepting at times we change when we should stay put.

    And, like anyone else Reformed churches have their fair share of groups claiming to be true to the Reformed tradition (a tradition that can be a rejection of traditions ...) and splinter away claiming to be more Reformed. Which is why churches like the United Reformed Church can exist, if all those Reformed groups hadn't split there would be nothing to unite.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 19
    Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not knocking the Reformed tradition, it's produced and no doubt will produce many outstanding theologians, scholars, missionaries and good eggs.
    Sigh.

    @Gamma Gamaliel, you’ve been told before that when you go on for paragraph after paragraph in a way that can be read as critical, and then follow it with something like, “don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking it,” then a reader’s takeaway well may be that you are knocking it. That takeaway is reinforced when you bring up things like TULIP every time that the Reformed tradition is mentioned, whether TULIP is relevant to the discussion or not (as in this thread). It starts to feel like those of us in the Reformed tradition are being constantly challenged to defend our tradition.

    No question is being begged in this thread about what “reform” looks like. This thread is about the name of a magazine, and more broadly about religious bodies needing to change nomenclature or the like because of secular politics or society. My comments about “reformed” vs “reforming” vs “being reformed” were in response to a comment from shipmates outside the Reformed tradition about possible choices other than “Reformed” for name of the URC’s magazine, and why those choices might not resonate with someone within the Reformed tradition. They were not an attempt to turn this a thread about being reformed looks like, much less into a defense of the Reformed tradition.


  • Indeed. And there remain independent Congregationalist churches and other groups that contributed to the URC's formation which yet remain outside its fold.

    I sometimes wonder what they have united 'around' - other than a perceived need to keep reforming things ad infinitum.

    Which may be overly flippant. I hasten to add that my dealings with URC ministers and people have always been positive and cordial.

  • To come back to the OP - I think it's inevitable that the name had to be changed, as the word "Reform" has, in most people's eyes, become indissolubly linked with a political party and viewpoint.

    Quite apart from that, names which were once appropriate become inappropriate because either societal norms or lexical usages have changed. Hence The Spastics Society became Scope; and the Baptist designation "Strict and Particular" conveys a different meaning to that which was originally intended. Just don't get me started on the Peculiar People!
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Sometimes changes in normal use of words can help, especially when those changes include a change in spelling. UK Methodists still talk of "Connexion", with the archaic spelling being something that catches people out and (possibly) makes them think this isn't something that they can simply assume they understand without actually asking about it.
  • And the United Free Church's magazine is still called "Stedfast".

    At least they, and the URC, still have a magazine; the Baptist Union (England and Wales) no longer has, nor does the Church of Scotland.
  • Apologies, @Nick Tamen - I cross posted with you when I replied to @Alan Cresswell .

    I have a rhetorical habit of stretching a point then reining it in to a more moderate position.

    I think that's what I was doing here. I refer you to my closing paragraph in my reply to Alan Cresswell that my personal interactions with the URC have always been very positive.

    The TULIP reference was in relation to ultra-conservative critics of the URC.

    The context of my remark should indicate that I don't share that view still less that I was accusing the entire Reformed tradition of being hyper-Calvinist TULIP types.

    Yes, it's true that I wonder what continual reformation looks like and where it leads. Perhaps that's a topic for another thread.

    I'd agreed with Alan that 'Reformed' was an appropriate title for the URC magazine.

    Perhaps Reformanda might be a more appropriate one. That immediately distances the title from the political party, not least because it's Latin and sounds clever.

    FWIW if there remains any doubt as to my good will, when Mrs Gamaliel was nearing the end of her life she asked me to read some prayers beside the bed each evening. I read Anglican ones, Orthodox, various others and she particularly appreciated some URC prayers - so I read them fairly often.

    If we had our time over again I would do the same.
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    I could answer many questions. I am too tired to do so, but it is the United Reformed Church. The United is complex, but it is better at Uniting that Uniting Church of Australia (1972, 1981 and 2001). All joining members claim a Reformed heritage
    Congregational Church of England and Wales
    Presbyterian Church of England
    Churches of Christ in the UK (sorry, wrong name, but why three are so many Christ Churches in the URC)
    Congregational Church of Scotland

    TULIP is a sub-brand of Reformed Theology, which is broad.

    Added anecdote: Steve Tomkins is Editor of Reform/Reformed.
  • On magazine titles, who remembers Redemption Tidings?

    We could start a new thread on the names of Fresh Expressions style churches. The Zone. Things like that.

    Is it a hipster coffee bar? A gym? No, it's The Zone.
  • On magazine titles, who remembers Redemption Tidings?
    Me, for one.

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Apologies, @Nick Tamen - I cross posted with you when I replied to @Alan Cresswell .

    I have a rhetorical habit of stretching a point then reining it in to a more moderate position.

    I think that's what I was doing here. I refer you to my closing paragraph in my reply to Alan Cresswell that my personal interactions with the URC have always been very positive.
    I accept your statement of your intention, @Gamma Gamaliel. What I, and others in the past, have tried to point out is how that “rhetorical habit of stretching then reigning it in to a more moderate position” more often than not comes across in a manner contrary to your intention. It can make it harder, not easier, to follow your point, and it has a way of undermining your statement that you’re “reigning in to a more moderate position.”

    And I’m afraid that continuing to continue to use this rhetorical habit after having it pointed out how it can come across can make those on the receiving end of your “stretching” feel as though they’re being put on the defensive.


  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Reforming, Reviving, Resourcing, Reporting
    is the phrase used on their website, à propos of the magazine.

  • @Nick Tamen - I'll try to rein myself in then. In deference to the 'No Kings' movement I won't 'reign'.

    More seriously, yes, I can tease and use hyperbole and do so in 'real life' - only there people can see the body language and recognise when I'm engaging in banter.

    That doesn't translate very well onto a screen.
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