This does, of course, open up a new possibility. A medieval time traveller goes to visit the tomb on that Sunday morning when Jesus rose from the dead, picked up the burial cloth as a souvenir and took it back to the future. In one move giving it a 14C date that's too young and it's obvious why he couldn't say where he got it from.
This does, of course, open up a new possibility. A medieval time traveller goes to visit the tomb on that Sunday morning when Jesus rose from the dead, picked up the burial cloth as a souvenir and took it back to the future. In one move giving it a 14C date that's too young and it's obvious why he couldn't say where he got it from.
Question just occurred to me: Might whatever wrappings/shroud have been given to Mary, his mom?
Given that bodily resurrection isn't a common occurrence, AFAIK, there wouldn't have been a cultural protocol for what to do with items in the tomb. So given that people in the situation had to improvise, giving the wrappings to J's mom would make sense--provided it was done *after* she understood he was resurrected. Otherwise, very creepy and disturbing.
I also wonder if/when J visited his mom after his resurrection. I did a quick double-check. She's not listed in any of the post-resurrection appearances. Acts 1:14 does mention her as being part of the larger group of women, friends, family, and disciples. It would be odd if J never visited his mom--though it might well have been an intensely private thing.
no no no no no. Jewish mother, right? funeral trappings = unclean, right? I wouldn't expect that the fact of the resurrection would make a dent in that attitude right away--you grow up with "ewwww" feelings, you keep them, generally speaking.
I really think it most likely that the wrappings were left for the wind and the rain. Jesus' people would have been too caught up in him to care for his wrappings, and probably would not have been in a mood to save souvenirs for the future, esp. since they probably expected it to be quite short.
This does, of course, open up a new possibility. A medieval time traveller goes to visit the tomb on that Sunday morning when Jesus rose from the dead, picked up the burial cloth as a souvenir and took it back to the future. In one move giving it a 14C date that's too young and it's obvious why he couldn't say where he got it from.
Except it doesn't explain the late weave. Perhaps he arrived a couple of days earlier and gave the cloth then retrieved it on Sunday morning.
This does, of course, open up a new possibility. A medieval time traveller goes to visit the tomb on that Sunday morning when Jesus rose from the dead, picked up the burial cloth as a souvenir and took it back to the future. In one move giving it a 14C date that's too young and it's obvious why he couldn't say where he got it from.
Except it doesn't explain the late weave. Perhaps he arrived a couple of days earlier and gave the cloth then retrieved it on Sunday morning.
Another traveller from the time of weaving took it back first, OBVIOUSLY!
Or, unbeknownst to archaeologists, someone came up with that weave much earlier than they thought.
Not pushing that, just saying it might be possible.
Hmmm. That must be down to technical development. Why would an early C1st Eurasian cloth be archaeologically unique? We have pottery imprints 5,000 years old from Orkney and older, 6,500 BCE, Nålebinding from Israel.
This does, of course, open up a new possibility. A medieval time traveller goes to visit the tomb on that Sunday morning when Jesus rose from the dead, picked up the burial cloth as a souvenir and took it back to the future. In one move giving it a 14C date that's too young and it's obvious why he couldn't say where he got it from.
That is a better explanation than that the Shroud was made in the 14th century.
Aliens giving it to the de Charneys is also better.
I wonder if Joseph of Arimathea had another tomb made for himself, or used the one he gave to Jesus--or wasn't in the area at all. IIRC, lore has it that he made it to Britain and France.
Various time travel, neutron flux or whatever else hypotheses, where the proposition is baseless except as a way to square the circle of a mediaeval piece of cloth being three times older than it is, are less likely than it being only as old as it is.
Even if, and I apologise in advance for the inevitable play on words hurtling towards this post, the exact means of its manufacture are shrouded in mystery.
Various time travel, neutron flux or whatever else hypotheses, where the proposition is baseless except as a way to square the circle of a mediaeval piece of cloth being three times older than it is, are less likely than it being only as old as it is.
Even if, and I apologise in advance for the inevitable play on words hurtling towards this post, the exact means of its manufacture are shrouded in mystery.
I will of course get my coat...
Yes, but can you explain the weave of your coat?
Rattus immortalis says more than once that there are no other examples of cloth or images from the medieval period that are similar to the Shroud. Over hundreds of years of war, fires, earthquakes and the industrial revolution, why would these others survive anyway? Cloth is flammable, edible (by moths and other insects), easily ripped or cut apart, destroyed by mildew or stolen by thieves/soldiers/bankers/tax collectors. So the chances of finding cloth from that period that hadn't been kept in a locked box for hundreds of years are pretty low (accepting that there will be some samples, usually from the richest parts of society). Absence of evidence, etc.
(I agree that this is a stupid time to join the argument)
Various time travel, neutron flux or whatever else hypotheses, where the proposition is baseless except as a way to square the circle of a mediaeval piece of cloth being three times older than it is, are less likely than it being only as old as it is.
Even if, and I apologise in advance for the inevitable play on words hurtling towards this post, the exact means of its manufacture are shrouded in mystery.
I will of course get my coat...
Yes, but can you explain the weave of your coat?
Rattus immortalis says more than once that there are no other examples of cloth or images from the medieval period that are similar to the Shroud. Over hundreds of years of war, fires, earthquakes and the industrial revolution, why would these others survive anyway? Cloth is flammable, edible (by moths and other insects), easily ripped or cut apart, destroyed by mildew or stolen by thieves/soldiers/bankers/tax collectors. So the chances of finding cloth from that period that hadn't been kept in a locked box for hundreds of years are pretty low (accepting that there will be some samples, usually from the richest parts of society). Absence of evidence, etc.
(I agree that this is a stupid time to join the argument)
It's always a stupid time to join a stupid argument. But is stupidity correlated with time of joining?
I wonder if Joseph of Arimathea had another tomb made for himself, or used the one he gave to Jesus--or wasn't in the area at all. IIRC, lore has it that he made it to Britain and France.
That lore has him taking the young Jesus with him. No reason why he could not have made a similar journey afterwards.
I wonder if Joseph of Arimathea had another tomb made for himself, or used the one he gave to Jesus--or wasn't in the area at all. IIRC, lore has it that he made it to Britain and France.
AIUI the burial custom of the time was to lay a body on a stone slab until there was nothing left but bones. Then the bones were placed in as clay jar. The tomb was available for other bodies.
of Aramithea, yes. Supposed in some accounts to be Jesus' uncle.
AH. Despite the discussion, I was somehow thinking of Joseph, adoptive father of Jesus. (Probably because Mary had just been mentioned as keeping a close eye on Jesus, so mentioning Joseph as doing that, also, sounded like a dad thing.) I could kind of understand someone, somewhere referring to him that way, but not you.
There is a stained glass window in St Sanity of Joseph teaching the young Jesus the skills of carpenter. It's on the kitsch side, but represents what almost certainly happened, a tradesman passing on his knowledge to his sons. Just as the tradesman's wife would have taught any daughters to cook, sew and knit.
I wonder if Joseph of Arimathea had another tomb made for himself, or used the one he gave to Jesus--or wasn't in the area at all. IIRC, lore has it that he made it to Britain and France.
That lore has him taking the young Jesus with him. No reason why he could not have made a similar journey afterwards.
Ok, thx. Not sure if I'd heard of that particular lore. But JoA is also have said to have taken the Holy Grail* to Glastonbury, England.
I wonder if Joseph of Arimathea had another tomb made for himself, or used the one he gave to Jesus--or wasn't in the area at all. IIRC, lore has it that he made it to Britain and France.
AIUI the burial custom of the time was to lay a body on a stone slab until there was nothing left but bones. Then the bones were placed in as clay jar. The tomb was available for other bodies.
Oh, right, I'd forgotten about that. Thx! But I wonder if JoA might have considered the place so sacred and too emotionally connected to be used for anyone else? Especially himself?
I sort of wonder if he was still in Jerusalem when he died, leaving aside all questions of legend. I mean, it wasn't that long before Jerusalem was destroyed, and I'm sure it became ... inhospitable? ... to high-profile Christian believers before that. Which he would have been.
I wonder if Joseph of Arimathea had another tomb made for himself, or used the one he gave to Jesus--or wasn't in the area at all. IIRC, lore has it that he made it to Britain and France.
That lore has him taking the young Jesus with him. No reason why he could not have made a similar journey afterwards.
Ok, thx. Not sure if I'd heard of that particular lore. But JoA is also have said to have taken the Holy Grail* to Glastonbury, England.
Yes, there is a quite a bit of lore about Joseph of Arimathea. Think of the journey from Palestine to Britain in those days - perhaps boat to the south of France, cross country to the Channel, then another boat. A hard enough journey for a trader or government official, but near impossible for a tradesman. A similar journey was that by St James to Spain, the Finisterre/Fistera for the world of the ancient Mediterrean.
The Grail is supposed to be at Glastonbury still, but where it was hidden has been the subject of hot and fruitless debate amongst afficionados of the cult. It's one of the few objects which St Helena did not find, rather slack of her.
I wonder if Joseph of Arimathea had another tomb made for himself, or used the one he gave to Jesus--or wasn't in the area at all. IIRC, lore has it that he made it to Britain and France.
That lore has him taking the young Jesus with him.
Ok, thx. Not sure if I'd heard of that particular lore.
Isn’t the lore that Joseph of Arimathea took the young Jesus to Britain with him the lore to which Blake referred?
And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon Englands mountains green . . . .
Well, I know of the song (made from Blake's poem?), but not its backstory. But there are stories of Jesus visiting various "away from the Mediterranean" places as an adult--whether during the "lost 3 years", after the resurrection, etc.
I don't know if there's any truth to them. But I allow for the possibility. I like to play with ideas, and look at things from different angles. (E.g. being told something is untrue/impossible, and thinking if there's any way I can think of that it might be true. And vice versa, though maybe to a lesser extent.)
Most things, of any kind, are in my "Don't Know" stack. Makes my life much easier. I can breathe; I get into few inner tangles; and I don't have to force myself into believing things I'm not sure of.
Well, I know of the song (made from Blake's poem?), but not its backstory. But there are stories of Jesus visiting various "away from the Mediterranean" places as an adult--whether during the "lost 3 years", after the resurrection, etc.
Yes, I’m aware there are other stories as well. But I’m pretty sure I’ve read that the story of a young Jesus accompanying JoA to Britain is what Blake was referencing. Perhaps not, though.
By the way, if you want an entertaining and irreverent take on the adventures of Jesus in childhood, youth and pre-ministry that plays with ideas as you describe below, I highly recommend Christopher Moore’s Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal. At last it’s revealed why Jesus always celebrated his birthday with Chinese food.
I don't know if there's any truth to them. But I allow for the possibility. I like to play with ideas, and look at things from different angles. (E.g. being told something is untrue/impossible, and thinking if there's any way I can think of that it might be true. And vice versa, though maybe to a lesser extent.)
Most things, of any kind, are in my "Don't Know" stack. Makes my life much easier. I can breathe; I get into few inner tangles; and I don't have to force myself into believing things I'm not sure of.
Hey, there are worse mistakes. I read "uncle Joe" and immediately thought "Joe Biden"! Too much Twitter, rots the brain.
Well, comedians keep joking about Joe Biden's age. And he's Catholic. Somehow, I don't think he would mind much if he were thought to be--or were!--Jesus' uncle.
Interesting lyrics. ISTM that they *almost* fit Johnny Horton's "Battle of New Orleans".
I thought maybe the link was going to be Uncle Joe from the "Petticoat Junction" sitcom!
{Minor detour: while I was checking out your link and exploring a bit, I found out that YouTube has hours and hours of Wolfman Jack's radio show!!! w00t! /end detour.}
Well, I know of the song (made from Blake's poem?), but not its backstory. But there are stories of Jesus visiting various "away from the Mediterranean" places as an adult--whether during the "lost 3 years", after the resurrection, etc.
Yes, I’m aware there are other stories as well. But I’m pretty sure I’ve read that the story of a young Jesus accompanying JoA to Britain is what Blake was referencing. Perhaps not, though.
That's confirmed by the next 4 lines:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!
And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills
My father has traditionally objected to Jerusalem being sung in church on the basis that no hymn should have a first verse entirely comprised of a series of questions to which the answer is "no". The rational me supports the inherited objection, but the romantic in me loves the idea that Jesus spent the years prior to his ministry travelling and seeing with human eyes the world he had made. Of course I have my limits when it comes to these sorts of legends *side-eyes Joseph Smith*.
Comments
Locomotive.
Railway engine would have pre-empted that.
Yes, that would have done.
Why's it obvious?
Given that bodily resurrection isn't a common occurrence, AFAIK, there wouldn't have been a cultural protocol for what to do with items in the tomb. So given that people in the situation had to improvise, giving the wrappings to J's mom would make sense--provided it was done *after* she understood he was resurrected. Otherwise, very creepy and disturbing.
I also wonder if/when J visited his mom after his resurrection. I did a quick double-check. She's not listed in any of the post-resurrection appearances. Acts 1:14 does mention her as being part of the larger group of women, friends, family, and disciples. It would be odd if J never visited his mom--though it might well have been an intensely private thing.
I really think it most likely that the wrappings were left for the wind and the rain. Jesus' people would have been too caught up in him to care for his wrappings, and probably would not have been in a mood to save souvenirs for the future, esp. since they probably expected it to be quite short.
Except it doesn't explain the late weave. Perhaps he arrived a couple of days earlier and gave the cloth then retrieved it on Sunday morning.
I see someone got there ahead of me.
Another traveller from the time of weaving took it back first, OBVIOUSLY!
Not pushing that, just saying it might be possible.
Hmmm. That must be down to technical development. Why would an early C1st Eurasian cloth be archaeologically unique? We have pottery imprints 5,000 years old from Orkney and older, 6,500 BCE, Nålebinding from Israel.
That is a better explanation than that the Shroud was made in the 14th century.
Aliens giving it to the de Charneys is also better.
Even if, and I apologise in advance for the inevitable play on words hurtling towards this post, the exact means of its manufacture are shrouded in mystery.
I will of course get my coat...
Yes, but can you explain the weave of your coat?
Rattus immortalis says more than once that there are no other examples of cloth or images from the medieval period that are similar to the Shroud. Over hundreds of years of war, fires, earthquakes and the industrial revolution, why would these others survive anyway? Cloth is flammable, edible (by moths and other insects), easily ripped or cut apart, destroyed by mildew or stolen by thieves/soldiers/bankers/tax collectors. So the chances of finding cloth from that period that hadn't been kept in a locked box for hundreds of years are pretty low (accepting that there will be some samples, usually from the richest parts of society). Absence of evidence, etc.
(I agree that this is a stupid time to join the argument)
Or a Tomb Traveller?
I'll get my coat...
ROFL
It's always a stupid time to join a stupid argument. But is stupidity correlated with time of joining?
Rattus zombiei surely?
That lore has him taking the young Jesus with him. No reason why he could not have made a similar journey afterwards.
She and Uncle Joe saw eye-to-eye on that.
of Aramithea, yes. Supposed in some accounts to be Jesus' uncle.
AIUI the burial custom of the time was to lay a body on a stone slab until there was nothing left but bones. Then the bones were placed in as clay jar. The tomb was available for other bodies.
AH. Despite the discussion, I was somehow thinking of Joseph, adoptive father of Jesus. (Probably because Mary had just been mentioned as keeping a close eye on Jesus, so mentioning Joseph as doing that, also, sounded like a dad thing.) I could kind of understand someone, somewhere referring to him that way, but not you.
D'oh.
Thx.
Ok, thx. Not sure if I'd heard of that particular lore. But JoA is also have said to have taken the Holy Grail* to Glastonbury, England.
* "...the cup in which Joseph of Arimathea caught the blood and water that poured from Christ’s side after Longinus pierced Him as He hung dead on the cross" (Simply Catholic).
Oh, right, I'd forgotten about that. Thx! But I wonder if JoA might have considered the place so sacred and too emotionally connected to be used for anyone else? Especially himself?
Yes, there is a quite a bit of lore about Joseph of Arimathea. Think of the journey from Palestine to Britain in those days - perhaps boat to the south of France, cross country to the Channel, then another boat. A hard enough journey for a trader or government official, but near impossible for a tradesman. A similar journey was that by St James to Spain, the Finisterre/Fistera for the world of the ancient Mediterrean.
The Grail is supposed to be at Glastonbury still, but where it was hidden has been the subject of hot and fruitless debate amongst afficionados of the cult. It's one of the few objects which St Helena did not find, rather slack of her.
And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon Englands mountains green . . . .
Well, I know of the song (made from Blake's poem?), but not its backstory. But there are stories of Jesus visiting various "away from the Mediterranean" places as an adult--whether during the "lost 3 years", after the resurrection, etc.
I don't know if there's any truth to them. But I allow for the possibility. I like to play with ideas, and look at things from different angles. (E.g. being told something is untrue/impossible, and thinking if there's any way I can think of that it might be true. And vice versa, though maybe to a lesser extent.)
Most things, of any kind, are in my "Don't Know" stack. Makes my life much easier. I can breathe; I get into few inner tangles; and I don't have to force myself into believing things I'm not sure of.
~~The Word Of The Key
By the way, if you want an entertaining and irreverent take on the adventures of Jesus in childhood, youth and pre-ministry that plays with ideas as you describe below, I highly recommend Christopher Moore’s Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal. At last it’s revealed why Jesus always celebrated his birthday with Chinese food.
Words to live by, I think.
And in another context, Uncle Joe could mean somebody quite different...
Well, comedians keep joking about Joe Biden's age. And he's Catholic. Somehow, I don't think he would mind much if he were thought to be--or were!--Jesus' uncle.
Interesting lyrics. ISTM that they *almost* fit Johnny Horton's "Battle of New Orleans".
I thought maybe the link was going to be Uncle Joe from the "Petticoat Junction" sitcom!
{Minor detour: while I was checking out your link and exploring a bit, I found out that YouTube has hours and hours of Wolfman Jack's radio show!!! w00t! /end detour.}
That's confirmed by the next 4 lines:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!
And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills
I'd only heard of Stalin as Uncle Joe, did not think of Biden at all.