Heaven: 2022 June Book Group - The White Witch by Elizabeth Goudge

NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
edited August 2022 in Limbo
Set in an Oxfordshire village, this book takes us into the world of the Haslewood family's lives and loves and conflicts both personal and political. Robert the local squire, his wife Margaret and their twin children Jenny and Will, Froniga (Robert's childhood sweetheart and the white witch of the title) and her lover Yoben, Parson Hawthyn, John Loggin the painter and many others live out their stories against the backdrop of the English Civil War.

I've read a number of Elizabeth Goudge's books and this one remains my favourite.

Happy reading!
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Comments

  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Have ordered it from my local bookmonger.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Sound like very much My Sort of Thing again; will see about obtaining a copy!
  • HelixHelix Shipmate
    I loved it! And hope that others do as well, likely as not I wouldn't have read it without it appearing on the book club list so thank you!
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    I’ve just finished it, and am
    looking forward to the discussion.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I discovered that the e-bookstore where I buy e-books had two editions of this book available: one for $15.99 and one for $5.99.

    Obviously I bought the 5.99 one.

    I just hope it has all the words.
  • LibsLibs Shipmate
    I read it months ago when it was first mentioned here. I may need to dip in to remind myself before the discussion gets going.
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    Trudy wrote: »
    I discovered that the e-bookstore where I buy e-books had two editions of this book available: one for $15.99 and one for $5.99.

    Obviously I bought the 5.99 one.

    I just hope it has all the words.

    I only found one version in Australia - hope I didn't miss a cheaper one! It was $12.99 Australian, so about $9 US. All the words seem to be there and I am enjoying the book, though hope the battles aren't too graphic.

    The book also sent me down an internet rabbit hole again, reading about Prince Rupert and his very adventurous life, plus his possible witch poodle 😂

    I also looked back into my Oxfordshire ancestors and found out I am related (if the tree matches the DNA) to Dr. Griffin/Griffith Higges of South Stoke, Chaplain to Charles I's sister Elizabeth, the Winter Queen. He took the Royalist side during the war, but also had friends on the other side. He was stripped of his clerical titles and roles and fined about 400 pounds, but had 4000 pounds to begin with, so got off pretty lightly. I also found a photo of his tomb which is quite frighteningly funny https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Higgs-1707
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Mili wrote: »
    hope the battles aren't too graphic.
    They aren't. There are a couple of bits that I find rather more disturbing and will be interested to hear whether you pick up on them too.

    Fascinating about your ancestor! :smile:
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    Interesting ancestor @Trudy. I must read up on Prince Rupert. Until recently our branch of Greggs (a bakery and fast food chain) was in a building that he stayed in during the Civil War when it belonged to the local Governor. It has very old wall paintings on the upper floors so I hope someone will take it on and preserve it. We also have a building where Henrietta Maria, Charles 1st's wife was supposed to have stayed.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Sarasa wrote: »
    Interesting ancestor @Trudy. I must read up on Prince Rupert. Until recently our branch of Greggs (a bakery and fast food chain) was in a building that he stayed in during the Civil War when it belonged to the local Governor. It has very old wall paintings on the upper floors so I hope someone will take it on and preserve it. We also have a building where Henrietta Maria, Charles 1st's wife was supposed to have stayed.

    To be clear it's @Mili with the interesting ancestor; all mine are staggeringly boring.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    Oops sorry @Trudy and @Mili for the mix up.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    My copy arrived on Friday.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Finding the book to be slow slogging. Have only made it to the breeching chapter.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I'm just the opposite -- absolutely loving it and amazed I've not come across the author's work before. Interesting how varied reactions to a book can be!
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Just finished it — I have many thoughts and can’t wait to discuss it!
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    I am just back from holiday and catching up here; planning to post questions tomorrow. So glad you enjoyed it @Trudy !

    How is everyone else doing? Have you given up on it @Caissa ?
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    I read it and am glad I did. I like Goudge, and hadn’t read this one.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Here are some discussion starters but, as always, please add whatever you'd like to say and introduce other topics.

    Did you enjoy the book?

    Did you find the characters believable?

    Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?

    Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?

    What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?

    There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?

    I'm excited to hear what you all have to say. :smile:

  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Nenya wrote: »
    What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?
    Darned autocorrect! :angry: Missed the edit window! I mean, of course, Madona.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I passed the halfway mark today. It's starting to grow on me. I never give up on a book. ;^)
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    edited June 2022
    @Caissa and anyone else who hasn't finished the book may not want to read any further just yet.

    Did you enjoy the book?
    I always know I'm in safe hands with a Goudge and I enjoyed this one

    Did you find the characters believable?
    Some were more believable than others. I could well imagine their were women like Margaret whose own opinions were swept aside by their husbands during the conflict. I also thought Robert was a convincing character. I found Alamina rather a caricature of the evil, flirtatious gypsy.

    Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?
    I fell a bit in love with Yoben. I twigged early on that he was a priest in disguise, and I'm a sucker for conflicted male characters trying to live by their code. I imagined him as a bit like John Donne.

    Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?
    I thought they were quite well done and not too gory. Although it was from two centuries earlier I recently did a walk of a War of the Roses battle site and that helped me imagine what it would have been like, soldiers battling in what was once peaceful rural England, riding down steep hills and dying in ditches. I live in a town that was on the front line during the civil war and had an interesting conversation with some members of a New Model Army re-enactment group at a Castle open day. For a start they got very cross when my husband called them Roundheads and secondly one of their number was thirteen with very impressive pike skills. I could well imagine Will getting dragged into the conflict, as would have been many young boys sent off to war by the lord of their manor.

    What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?
    Goudge is always good at making these elements seem part of the story so I totally bought into them

    There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
    In a way I thought Goudge had started too many ideas and tried to squish them all into one book. We could have had a very strong novel just about how the war divided the opinions of the Haslewood family without the subplots.

    I found a lot of similarities to The Little White Horse, one of my favourite books. The kindly parson, the unicorn for instance. I assumed she wrote it after this book, but apparently she wrote it before.
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    edited June 2022
    I have finished the book and really enjoyed it. I am returning to cold, dark, wintery Melbourne from my holiday of tropical islands, beaches and rainforest in Queensland tomorrow so will answer the questions in the next few days.
  • I am trying to read this, but it is up against competition from other books I find more compelling.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Nenya wrote: »
    Here are some discussion starters but, as always, please add whatever you'd like to say and introduce other topics.

    Did you enjoy the book?
    I did, more than I thought I was going to at first. In the end I even found it helpful!

    Did you find the characters believable?
    Most of them. Goudge has a habit of making her little boys more believable than her girls, who tend to be just that hit too spiritual t9 be true (speaking as a former little girl). I was terribly, maternally sorry for the gypsum children, and glad that they found some loving in the end.

    Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?
    I think probably Froniga was my favourite character. She became more complex as the story went along, and it is always good to have a character who learns and develops.

    Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?
    I thought they were well done.

    What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?
    I liked these elements in this story more than the supernatural when if occurs in some of her more modern ( eater her own time) books. In this story they fitted because it was quite believable that people then would be accepting of such things.

    There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
    I found them very helpful. They are why they book will stay with me.

    I'm excited to hear what you all have to say. :smile:

  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Thanks so much for this suggestion! I had not even heard of this author before and will now look for other books by her.

    Did you enjoy the book?
    Yes, very much. I didn't race through it as I often do with books I enjoy; it was a slow and thoughtful read, but I loved it.

    Did you find the characters believable?
    I did. Except for Alamina, who as @Sarasa mentioned felt a bit like a stereotype (and there's SO MUCH to be said about the depiction of "gypsies" in this novel!)

    Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?
    One thing I loved about the book is that, as is often the case with books I end up loving, every character (except Alamina, as noted) feels complex and multidimensional, so that I could empathize with them all at points.

    But my favourite was definitely the parson. I really enjoy depictions of truly good clergy in fiction; such portrayals are not that common, in my experience. The Parson here reminded me very much of Hugo's descriptions of the Bishop of Digne in Les Miserables, or a few more recent fictional clergy such as Father Tim in Jan Karon's Mitford novels, or Father Wendy in Catherine Fox's Lindchester chronicles. It's not easy to depict genuinely good people in ways that are interesting in fiction, and I thought this parson was excellent.

    Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?

    I really dislike reading battle scenes and mostly skimmed them, tbh.


    What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?

    I thought they worked well in the context of the book as they were all connected to either religious or folklore beliefs that the characters themselves, and most people at the time, would have believed in. I did wonder a bit about the efficacy of some of Froniga's cures, though I thought the point about the male surgeons/doctors losing more patients than necessary to battle wounds because they disdained the herbal knowledge of wise-women like Froniga, was an interesting one.

    There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
    I had a lot of thoughts about the themes of the novel but am going to leave that for a bit and come to it in another post.

    I think the thing I would most like to know other people's thoughts on is the "relationship" (if you can call it that) between Francis and Jenny. They meet for two days when she is eight and he is, I guess, in his twenties? Then their fates are somehow eternally bound together and 18 years later they end up married. Is that ... creepy?


  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Yes, I found that totally weird and unbelievable.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    I have loved this book since I was a teenager and for the majority of that time accepted the love between Francis and Jenny as something deep and beautiful and not sinister at all. Only relatively recently have I come across the notion that it could be weird or creepy. I am certain that this is not what the author intended and find it sad, though understandable, that we read something untoward into it nowadays.

    In her autobiography The Joy of the Snow Elizabeth Goudge describes how once, as a young woman, she was at a ball and observed a couple there: a youngish beautiful woman whom nobody asked to dance until her partner came. "He was much older than she was, tall and rugged, with the saddest, ugliest, but yet I thought the most lovable face I had ever seen. They greeted each other as a man and woman do who are much in love... neither of them danced with anyone else and soon they went away together..." While this couple provided the material for another relationship in another book (The Dean's Watch) I speculate that it could have been in the author's subconscious thinking when writing of Francis and Jenny - at some point in these relationships the age difference would have meant the man was an adult and the woman a child.

    I found it credible because of the connection Francis and Jenny had at the time he painted her portrait and the love that Jenny is convinced is a person comes into the room to be with them. This connection remains with them both, and the memory of how Francis treats her as an adult and brings her new world to her at the time when her twin brother goes away to find his new world, sustains Jenny, particularly, over the years when she remains single long after a woman would have been expected to marry and have children. I do feel a bit sorry for her at the end when she meets Francis again and he is so much changed - she thinks he looks "dissipated"! Yet that connection and love between them holds steady.

    Elizabeth Goudge was the daughter of a clergyman and clearly encountered many lovely clergy people in her life. One of the recurring themes in a lot of the books of hers that I've read is the sympathetic depiction of humble, godly churchmen (and their long-suffering wives!).

    She was also very much a woman of "place" and set a lot of her novels in places she had loved. This one is based in the Oxfordshire cottage she shared with her companion Jessie towards the end of her life.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    The Jenny/Frances relationship didn't really ring true, though I'm sure a child might be impressed by an adult that was kind to her and took her seriously and a young man be entranced by a child. However it didn't bother me too much. In real life though surely Jenny would be expected to become a Catholic to marry Francis. Don't know how that would sit with her family. Is it even something she knows about him?
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I didn't think it was as creepy as some readers (judging by Goodreads reviews) seem to think -- there was no sense that Francis found Jenny sexually attractive when they met, and no ongoing relationship of the "grooming" sort where he would have been around during her growing-up years in an inappropriate way. I guess it just seemed kind of weird that a grown man would fixate on a little girl he met twice as such an icon of beauty, purity, innocence, whatever, and that she would also attach so much meaning to that brief encounter. And then he just sort of shows up after the Restoration, as if to say, "Well, you're grown up and I'm back in England, so I guess we're destined to get married because I've been thinking all these years about our two previous encounters when you were eight years old." I wouldn't call him a predator or anything; it just felt weird and unbelievable.

    On a different note, I did really enjoy all the history I picked up from this novel, as the English Civil War is not an area of history I'm particularly strong on, and it's one I'm going to need to learn about for an upcoming writing project. I liked the very ordinary-person, on-the-ground view of how the conflict affected people and how people's allegiances might be chosen and might also change during this period.
  • MiliMili Shipmate


    Did you enjoy the book?

    I really enjoyed the book. I didn't mind that there were a few story lines and only got a bit confused by some of the love triangles and large number of minor characters.

    Did you find the characters believable?

    Most of the characters were believable. The Romany people were pretty stereotyped, but I have know women like Alamina, even to the point of wanting extreme revenge. It was interesting we never found out what happened to her in the end. If Mother Skipton could reform, perhaps there was hope for her.

    Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?

    I liked Pastor Hawthyn and Froniga the best. They were truely kind, but also well-rounded, believable characters. Like others I enjoyed reading Froniga's story arc.

    Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?

    I don't like reading battle and war scenes, but I think they were necessary in a book about a civil war. The contrast between the fancy uniforms worn by the Royalists and the gruesome battles and horrible injuries was jarring. The exploration of the Francis and Robert's reactions to and emotions about battles throughout the war were realistic and demonstrated why men (people these days) are attracted to war, but also the emotional and spiritual damage it inflicts.

    What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?

    I liked the supernatural elements - they were part of their time, but also I believe some of these things are real whether through prophecy or second sight or whatever. I have had some experiences myself, but agree with Froniga that we should choose God's path.

    I read a lot of these types of book as a child and sometimes think I just have a vivid imagination and was influenced by fiction. However I have had prophetic dreams, seen auras around future leaders (sorry to say Boris Johnson was one of them, I kept being relieved when he didn't become PM, but eventually my 'premonition' came true - I really dislike him, but even just before the latest leadership challenge - and before I knew there was one happening - I had a strong feeling you guys were stuck with him for a while and he would get away with everything again). It is strange and having grown up in a church that didn't believe much is such things I worried they weren't Christian when I was a teenager, but now prefer to stick with the Charismatics on this theological issue as they allow for such things in a Christian framework. It's difficult to talk to other people about it without either being seen as mentally ill, delusional or risk stepping outside of faith with people who believe in such things but practise witch craft.

    Even with this book I felt compelled to research my ancestors as if they were nagging to be acknowledged and then felt suddenly compelled to pay for a streaming channel to watch UK 'Who do You think You Are' and watched Josh Widdicombe's episode and found his family story had strong links to the book as well. It's almost like a 'special interest' for neurodiverse people when I get like that and information just comes to me from many sources. Could just be I am good at research and have an instinct for these things plus a vivid imagination!

    There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?

    I found the themes powerful. The religious fanaticism was portrayed well and by showing how ordinary people can get sucked into such movements it reminds us to be wary of becoming fanatics ourselves. The Francis/Jenny relationship was straight out of a fairy tale, as even Francis acknowledged by sending the book of fairy tales. That was the one story line I found unrealistic. If they had reunited as adults and fallen in love then, without all the premonitions and deep connection after their brief meetings it would have been more realistic. I also wonder if the religious differences and the fact Francis killed Robert wouldn't have meant Margaret would have prevented the marriage, no matter how wealthy Francis was.


  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Mili wrote: »
    I also wonder if the religious differences and the fact Francis killed Robert wouldn't have meant Margaret would have prevented the marriage, no matter how wealthy Francis was.

    That's an interesting point, but I imagine that if anyone had any say over the adult Jenny's marriage it would be her brother rather than her mother -- he would be the man of the family at that point, and Margaret wasn't the sort who would challenge her son for that leadership role. Froniga, for whatever influence she had in the family at that point, would have been all in favour of the match as she had foreseen it and thought it inevitable -- so I would imagine the relevant question would be what would Will have thought of his sister marrying Francis, and if he had disapproved and forbidden it, would Jenny have defied him to marry Francis anyway?
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Margaret didn't know how Robert had died. It says so in the last chapter: "Long ago Froniga had told her [Jenny], though never Margaret, how Robert had died, and the knowledge had been a more fearful shock to her than even Froniga could understand." I'm sure Will wouldn't have been told either.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Did you enjoy the book?
    I found section one slow and ponderous. I began to enjoy it as conflicts developed in section 2. I disliked how the author felt she had to tie everything up with a neat bow in section 3.


    Did you find the characters believable?

    As believable as any characters. Just like when watching a play, a novel requires a willful suspension of disbelief and for the reader to enter the author’s world.

    Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?

    My favourite was probably Froniga although I did find her conversion trite and difficult to believe. That said almost all the conversions seemed trite in a George MacDonald kind of way.

    Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?
    They provided some colour and helped, in some cases, to drive the plot along.

    What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?

    I took them as metaphorical.

    There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
    I found them overly sentimental somewhere between trite and maudlin.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Not your favourite book of all time, then, @Caissa .

    A couple of people have mentioned there's more to be said about the depictions of the gypsies. Please say it. :smile:
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    edited June 2022
    The depictions of the Roma fell into the general tropes of the time of publication. I am not sure how widespread the Roma population was at the time of the Civil War nor what popular sentiment might have been towards them collectively.
    P.S. Nenya, I probably enjoyed in more than my answers to the question above would suggest. It's a product of its time and falls into a specific type of redemptive literature.
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    Nenya wrote: »
    Margaret didn't know how Robert had died. It says so in the last chapter: "Long ago Froniga had told her [Jenny], though never Margaret, how Robert had died, and the knowledge had been a more fearful shock to her than even Froniga could understand." I'm sure Will wouldn't have been told either.

    Ah yes, I forgot!
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    edited June 2022
    I am only just starting it. I didn't think I had it, having no clear picture of it in my mind, or rather, having a clear picture which turned out not to match my copy. This had once been on the shelves of a Gloucestershire library, and having left it, had been rebound by someone who had been taught the subject, as my mother had, but hadn't quite mastered it. (It wasn't my mother - I know how her binding looks, and this fails in different ways.) It is a dull green, with the title inked in, and the binder didn't have access to a press to hold the pages well, so they burst out from between the nicely done covers. It has been somewhere damp, especially the first half.
    I suspect that Mum got this at a village fete bookstall, as she liked Goudge, and had read a serialised version in Woman's Journal, where I also read it in my teens. I would have picked it up in house clearance which would explain why I didn't "know" I had it.
    I hadn't read it as soon as I got it because someone whose opinions I valued had dismissed Goudge as a masochist, and I didn't want to darken the memory of Froniga.
    Now is obviously the time.
  • There's the "gipsy boy" in Children of the New Forest which is set at about this time. The Beverley children were quite condescending to him, I seem to remember.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    How would anyone make the case for Goudge being a masochist? :flushed:
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    I've just been doing a bit of Googling on gypsies in the UK and they certainly appear to have been around during the time of the Civil War. They also had among their number people like Yoben that had attached themselves to them for whatever reason, so that is at least credible. If I was a Catholic priest in hiding, hiding among another load of outcasts might seem like a good idea. Goudge also seems to have used names that were in use in the Romany community such as Cinderella. I felt that, having made a big deal of the 'big trick' that Alamina pulled on Biddy, the discovery that the servant had been tricked out of her life savings was rather underplayed.
    Can we talk about Mother Skipton, who I guess is supposed to be a version of Mother Shipton. Again I felt that her story rather petered out which was a bit of a pity.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    I am not sure I agree Mother Skipton equates very easily with Mother Shipton (apart from the similar names), as it seems (from reading that site) that Mother Shipton was essentially benign and Mother Skipton, at least to start with, is described as evil. I wonder how else her story could have developed? She is the black witch to Froniga's white witch but the two are portrayed as being closer than Froniga, at least, is comfortable facing ("two sisters in the study of the occult arts"). I took her story as one of the many depictions of redemption in the book and was glad we learned what happened to her towards the end.

    I do agree that the loss of her savings could have been life-changing for Biddy and that was a bit glossed over. Although... life changing...? I don't think we ever know what she had planned. If she was an old woman and still housekeeper for the Haslewoods would that have changed as she got older? I can imagine her loyalty to the family (and theirs to her) would keep her in post until her demise.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    Finished chapters 1 and 2. I note from her notes that she researched gypsies in a book by a Charles Leland. (Also now wondering about Charles William's the Greater Trumps which I once read and have forgotten. I read a lot of Inkling's books ar one time.)
    So far, I am most struck by the intensity of the descriptions, mostly of the landscape.
    As for masochism, that was not explained, but the person was a man who felt he had, for health and possibly other reasons, to deny himself the possibility of priesthood, and was unable to marry until his mother died. Would seeking fulfilment through denial perhaps be what he meant? Because I can see something of that already. I don't know which book, or books, he had come across. I have never thought of them as men's books.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Penny S wrote: »
    Would seeking fulfilment through denial perhaps be what he meant?
    Ah, yes, that would make sense. It's a theme in this book and in others of hers that I've read.

    Without wanting to sound as though I'm stereotyping, I don't think of them as men's books either. My hat is off to @Caissa for persevering.
  • Although this will be too late for sensibly discussion, finally ordered my own copy today.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    It will be interesting to hear what you think of it, though. There's no rule that says we're not allowed to post on book threads after the end of the relevant month. :smile:
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    Got past the breeching!
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Did you enjoy the book?
    I've loved this book since I was a teenager and have lost count of the number of times I've reread it.

    Did you find the characters believable?
    I think there has to be a certain amount willing suspension of disbelief. I am not sure an eight year old child would ever think or speak as Jenny does, for example. But having done that, I think the characters fit believably into the world that the author has created for them.

    Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?
    My top three are Yoben, Parson Hawthyn and Froniga. If I have to choose one it is Froniga.

    Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?
    Up until this most recent reread I've rather skimmed over the battle scenes. This time I made sure I read them in detail and I did find they added to my enjoyment of the book. The contrast between them and the domestic scenes highlighted the particularly sharp contrasts there are in civil war. I love the descriptions (not just of the battle scenes) but I found her notion that when the orange scarfs met the blue it would be like the autumn woods meeting the sky a bit fanciful.

    What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madona after his death? Believable? Fanciful?
    Totally believable in the context of the book. My mum was always adamant that back in the history of her family there had been a white witch and she (like me, and many others, I suspect) had a few unexplainable experiences which could be defined as supernatural. I feel much affinity with the herbalist or wise woman. I find the description of the tarot cards both beautiful and enchanting, although the latent evangelical in me struggled with it in the past. I would never seek after an experience of it via a spiritualist or some such, but Madona's experience of Yoben after his death and how she brought it to Froniga I found very moving and I sometimes wish there were some way of authentic communication with the people I've loved and lost.

    There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
    I found them powerful. The depictions of good and God-fearing men on both sides of the camp; how civil war in particular can impact families and friends and lovers; the repeated theme of redemption even from evil actions, both intended and unintended; especially Parson Hawthyn's views on God and love and life. His conversation with Froniga when they meet at the well on the day she visits Mother Skipton is a particular gem.


  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    Nenya wrote: »
    I am not sure I agree Mother Skipton equates very easily with Mother Shipton (apart from the similar names), as it seems (from reading that site) that Mother Shipton was essentially benign and Mother Skipton, at least to start with, is described as evil. I wonder how else her story could have developed? She is the black witch to Froniga's white witch but the two are portrayed as being closer than Froniga, at least, is comfortable facing ("two sisters in the study of the occult arts"). I took her story as one of the many depictions of redemption in the book and was glad we learned what happened to her towards the end.

    I don't think Mother Skipton is meant as an exact match to Mother Shipton, though I think the images of what the later was supposed to have looked like might have been in Goudge's mind. I rather liked the scene where Frongia tries to get help from Mother Skipton, 'You'll be wanting a skull then.' They both know the same things, it's just that they use them for different ends.

  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    Sarasa wrote: »
    I rather liked the scene where Frongia tries to get help from Mother Skipton, 'You'll be wanting a skull then.' They both know the same things, it's just that they use them for different ends.
    I liked that too; also that Mother Skipton knew, and was able to use, the herbs that Froniga brought for her to help care for Parson Hawthyn. It's that theme of the white witch being nearer to the black side than she might care to acknowledge but also that redemption for the black witch is closer than she might think.
    Trudy wrote: »
    (and there's SO MUCH to be said about the depiction of "gypsies" in this novel!)
    Could you say more about that, @Trudy ?
    Nenya wrote: »
    Mili wrote: »
    hope the battles aren't too graphic.
    They aren't. There are a couple of bits that I find rather more disturbing and will be interested to hear whether you pick up on them too.
    I was wondering whether there were any bits you found disturbing, @Mili ?
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I thought the portrayal of the gypsies (a word I feel uncomfortable even typing, as I've been many Roma consider it a very painful slur) was interesting because it seemed to cover a lot of different possibilities, all in the one book. There's the sort of romanticized view, which I do think is there at various points, and then there's the very prejudiced view of them as dishonest and unreliable (which you get in the portrayal of Alamina).

    But there also seems to be quite a number of times in the novel where I got the feeling that they were portrayed in a complex and sympathetic way, as a people with a distinct and valid culture that just happened to be different from the dominant culture. Neither romanticized nor demonized. I liked that, but it also made me wonder about sources, and whether there was any accuracy to her portrayal, as there wouldn't have been contemporary written sources for gypsy culture at the time.

    The comment above that Goudge cites Charles Leland as a source is interesting. I had only vaguely heard of Leland before if at all, but I note in the Wikipedia article on his research into gypsy and Indigenous cultures that it says "Scholars have found Leland had taken significant liberties with his research." So I'm still left wondering how close Goudge's portrayal of the gypsies in this novel is to Roma culture in 17th century England, and whether we could ever know how accurate it is?
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