Heaven: 2022 June Book Group - The White Witch by Elizabeth Goudge
Set in an Oxfordshire village, this book takes us into the world of the Haslewood family's lives and loves and conflicts both personal and political. Robert the local squire, his wife Margaret and their twin children Jenny and Will, Froniga (Robert's childhood sweetheart and the white witch of the title) and her lover Yoben, Parson Hawthyn, John Loggin the painter and many others live out their stories against the backdrop of the English Civil War.
I've read a number of Elizabeth Goudge's books and this one remains my favourite.
Happy reading!
I've read a number of Elizabeth Goudge's books and this one remains my favourite.
Happy reading!
Comments
looking forward to the discussion.
Obviously I bought the 5.99 one.
I just hope it has all the words.
I only found one version in Australia - hope I didn't miss a cheaper one! It was $12.99 Australian, so about $9 US. All the words seem to be there and I am enjoying the book, though hope the battles aren't too graphic.
The book also sent me down an internet rabbit hole again, reading about Prince Rupert and his very adventurous life, plus his possible witch poodle 😂
I also looked back into my Oxfordshire ancestors and found out I am related (if the tree matches the DNA) to Dr. Griffin/Griffith Higges of South Stoke, Chaplain to Charles I's sister Elizabeth, the Winter Queen. He took the Royalist side during the war, but also had friends on the other side. He was stripped of his clerical titles and roles and fined about 400 pounds, but had 4000 pounds to begin with, so got off pretty lightly. I also found a photo of his tomb which is quite frighteningly funny https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Higgs-1707
Fascinating about your ancestor!
To be clear it's @Mili with the interesting ancestor; all mine are staggeringly boring.
How is everyone else doing? Have you given up on it @Caissa ?
Did you enjoy the book?
Did you find the characters believable?
Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?
Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?
What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?
There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
I'm excited to hear what you all have to say.
Did you enjoy the book?
I always know I'm in safe hands with a Goudge and I enjoyed this one
Did you find the characters believable?
Some were more believable than others. I could well imagine their were women like Margaret whose own opinions were swept aside by their husbands during the conflict. I also thought Robert was a convincing character. I found Alamina rather a caricature of the evil, flirtatious gypsy.
Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?
I fell a bit in love with Yoben. I twigged early on that he was a priest in disguise, and I'm a sucker for conflicted male characters trying to live by their code. I imagined him as a bit like John Donne.
Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?
I thought they were quite well done and not too gory. Although it was from two centuries earlier I recently did a walk of a War of the Roses battle site and that helped me imagine what it would have been like, soldiers battling in what was once peaceful rural England, riding down steep hills and dying in ditches. I live in a town that was on the front line during the civil war and had an interesting conversation with some members of a New Model Army re-enactment group at a Castle open day. For a start they got very cross when my husband called them Roundheads and secondly one of their number was thirteen with very impressive pike skills. I could well imagine Will getting dragged into the conflict, as would have been many young boys sent off to war by the lord of their manor.
What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?
Goudge is always good at making these elements seem part of the story so I totally bought into them
There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
In a way I thought Goudge had started too many ideas and tried to squish them all into one book. We could have had a very strong novel just about how the war divided the opinions of the Haslewood family without the subplots.
I found a lot of similarities to The Little White Horse, one of my favourite books. The kindly parson, the unicorn for instance. I assumed she wrote it after this book, but apparently she wrote it before.
Did you enjoy the book?
Yes, very much. I didn't race through it as I often do with books I enjoy; it was a slow and thoughtful read, but I loved it.
Did you find the characters believable?
I did. Except for Alamina, who as @Sarasa mentioned felt a bit like a stereotype (and there's SO MUCH to be said about the depiction of "gypsies" in this novel!)
Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?
One thing I loved about the book is that, as is often the case with books I end up loving, every character (except Alamina, as noted) feels complex and multidimensional, so that I could empathize with them all at points.
But my favourite was definitely the parson. I really enjoy depictions of truly good clergy in fiction; such portrayals are not that common, in my experience. The Parson here reminded me very much of Hugo's descriptions of the Bishop of Digne in Les Miserables, or a few more recent fictional clergy such as Father Tim in Jan Karon's Mitford novels, or Father Wendy in Catherine Fox's Lindchester chronicles. It's not easy to depict genuinely good people in ways that are interesting in fiction, and I thought this parson was excellent.
Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?
I really dislike reading battle scenes and mostly skimmed them, tbh.
What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?
I thought they worked well in the context of the book as they were all connected to either religious or folklore beliefs that the characters themselves, and most people at the time, would have believed in. I did wonder a bit about the efficacy of some of Froniga's cures, though I thought the point about the male surgeons/doctors losing more patients than necessary to battle wounds because they disdained the herbal knowledge of wise-women like Froniga, was an interesting one.
There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
I had a lot of thoughts about the themes of the novel but am going to leave that for a bit and come to it in another post.
I think the thing I would most like to know other people's thoughts on is the "relationship" (if you can call it that) between Francis and Jenny. They meet for two days when she is eight and he is, I guess, in his twenties? Then their fates are somehow eternally bound together and 18 years later they end up married. Is that ... creepy?
In her autobiography The Joy of the Snow Elizabeth Goudge describes how once, as a young woman, she was at a ball and observed a couple there: a youngish beautiful woman whom nobody asked to dance until her partner came. "He was much older than she was, tall and rugged, with the saddest, ugliest, but yet I thought the most lovable face I had ever seen. They greeted each other as a man and woman do who are much in love... neither of them danced with anyone else and soon they went away together..." While this couple provided the material for another relationship in another book (The Dean's Watch) I speculate that it could have been in the author's subconscious thinking when writing of Francis and Jenny - at some point in these relationships the age difference would have meant the man was an adult and the woman a child.
I found it credible because of the connection Francis and Jenny had at the time he painted her portrait and the love that Jenny is convinced is a person comes into the room to be with them. This connection remains with them both, and the memory of how Francis treats her as an adult and brings her new world to her at the time when her twin brother goes away to find his new world, sustains Jenny, particularly, over the years when she remains single long after a woman would have been expected to marry and have children. I do feel a bit sorry for her at the end when she meets Francis again and he is so much changed - she thinks he looks "dissipated"! Yet that connection and love between them holds steady.
Elizabeth Goudge was the daughter of a clergyman and clearly encountered many lovely clergy people in her life. One of the recurring themes in a lot of the books of hers that I've read is the sympathetic depiction of humble, godly churchmen (and their long-suffering wives!).
She was also very much a woman of "place" and set a lot of her novels in places she had loved. This one is based in the Oxfordshire cottage she shared with her companion Jessie towards the end of her life.
On a different note, I did really enjoy all the history I picked up from this novel, as the English Civil War is not an area of history I'm particularly strong on, and it's one I'm going to need to learn about for an upcoming writing project. I liked the very ordinary-person, on-the-ground view of how the conflict affected people and how people's allegiances might be chosen and might also change during this period.
Did you enjoy the book?
I really enjoyed the book. I didn't mind that there were a few story lines and only got a bit confused by some of the love triangles and large number of minor characters.
Did you find the characters believable?
Most of the characters were believable. The Romany people were pretty stereotyped, but I have know women like Alamina, even to the point of wanting extreme revenge. It was interesting we never found out what happened to her in the end. If Mother Skipton could reform, perhaps there was hope for her.
Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?
I liked Pastor Hawthyn and Froniga the best. They were truely kind, but also well-rounded, believable characters. Like others I enjoyed reading Froniga's story arc.
Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?
I don't like reading battle and war scenes, but I think they were necessary in a book about a civil war. The contrast between the fancy uniforms worn by the Royalists and the gruesome battles and horrible injuries was jarring. The exploration of the Francis and Robert's reactions to and emotions about battles throughout the war were realistic and demonstrated why men (people these days) are attracted to war, but also the emotional and spiritual damage it inflicts.
What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?
I liked the supernatural elements - they were part of their time, but also I believe some of these things are real whether through prophecy or second sight or whatever. I have had some experiences myself, but agree with Froniga that we should choose God's path.
I read a lot of these types of book as a child and sometimes think I just have a vivid imagination and was influenced by fiction. However I have had prophetic dreams, seen auras around future leaders (sorry to say Boris Johnson was one of them, I kept being relieved when he didn't become PM, but eventually my 'premonition' came true - I really dislike him, but even just before the latest leadership challenge - and before I knew there was one happening - I had a strong feeling you guys were stuck with him for a while and he would get away with everything again). It is strange and having grown up in a church that didn't believe much is such things I worried they weren't Christian when I was a teenager, but now prefer to stick with the Charismatics on this theological issue as they allow for such things in a Christian framework. It's difficult to talk to other people about it without either being seen as mentally ill, delusional or risk stepping outside of faith with people who believe in such things but practise witch craft.
Even with this book I felt compelled to research my ancestors as if they were nagging to be acknowledged and then felt suddenly compelled to pay for a streaming channel to watch UK 'Who do You think You Are' and watched Josh Widdicombe's episode and found his family story had strong links to the book as well. It's almost like a 'special interest' for neurodiverse people when I get like that and information just comes to me from many sources. Could just be I am good at research and have an instinct for these things plus a vivid imagination!
There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
I found the themes powerful. The religious fanaticism was portrayed well and by showing how ordinary people can get sucked into such movements it reminds us to be wary of becoming fanatics ourselves. The Francis/Jenny relationship was straight out of a fairy tale, as even Francis acknowledged by sending the book of fairy tales. That was the one story line I found unrealistic. If they had reunited as adults and fallen in love then, without all the premonitions and deep connection after their brief meetings it would have been more realistic. I also wonder if the religious differences and the fact Francis killed Robert wouldn't have meant Margaret would have prevented the marriage, no matter how wealthy Francis was.
That's an interesting point, but I imagine that if anyone had any say over the adult Jenny's marriage it would be her brother rather than her mother -- he would be the man of the family at that point, and Margaret wasn't the sort who would challenge her son for that leadership role. Froniga, for whatever influence she had in the family at that point, would have been all in favour of the match as she had foreseen it and thought it inevitable -- so I would imagine the relevant question would be what would Will have thought of his sister marrying Francis, and if he had disapproved and forbidden it, would Jenny have defied him to marry Francis anyway?
I found section one slow and ponderous. I began to enjoy it as conflicts developed in section 2. I disliked how the author felt she had to tie everything up with a neat bow in section 3.
Did you find the characters believable?
As believable as any characters. Just like when watching a play, a novel requires a willful suspension of disbelief and for the reader to enter the author’s world.
Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?
My favourite was probably Froniga although I did find her conversion trite and difficult to believe. That said almost all the conversions seemed trite in a George MacDonald kind of way.
Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?
They provided some colour and helped, in some cases, to drive the plot along.
What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madonna after his death? Believable? Fanciful?
I took them as metaphorical.
There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
I found them overly sentimental somewhere between trite and maudlin.
A couple of people have mentioned there's more to be said about the depictions of the gypsies. Please say it.
P.S. Nenya, I probably enjoyed in more than my answers to the question above would suggest. It's a product of its time and falls into a specific type of redemptive literature.
Ah yes, I forgot!
I suspect that Mum got this at a village fete bookstall, as she liked Goudge, and had read a serialised version in Woman's Journal, where I also read it in my teens. I would have picked it up in house clearance which would explain why I didn't "know" I had it.
I hadn't read it as soon as I got it because someone whose opinions I valued had dismissed Goudge as a masochist, and I didn't want to darken the memory of Froniga.
Now is obviously the time.
Can we talk about Mother Skipton, who I guess is supposed to be a version of Mother Shipton. Again I felt that her story rather petered out which was a bit of a pity.
I do agree that the loss of her savings could have been life-changing for Biddy and that was a bit glossed over. Although... life changing...? I don't think we ever know what she had planned. If she was an old woman and still housekeeper for the Haslewoods would that have changed as she got older? I can imagine her loyalty to the family (and theirs to her) would keep her in post until her demise.
So far, I am most struck by the intensity of the descriptions, mostly of the landscape.
As for masochism, that was not explained, but the person was a man who felt he had, for health and possibly other reasons, to deny himself the possibility of priesthood, and was unable to marry until his mother died. Would seeking fulfilment through denial perhaps be what he meant? Because I can see something of that already. I don't know which book, or books, he had come across. I have never thought of them as men's books.
Without wanting to sound as though I'm stereotyping, I don't think of them as men's books either. My hat is off to @Caissa for persevering.
I've loved this book since I was a teenager and have lost count of the number of times I've reread it.
Did you find the characters believable?
I think there has to be a certain amount willing suspension of disbelief. I am not sure an eight year old child would ever think or speak as Jenny does, for example. But having done that, I think the characters fit believably into the world that the author has created for them.
Did you have a favourite character? If so, who and why?
My top three are Yoben, Parson Hawthyn and Froniga. If I have to choose one it is Froniga.
Did the depictions of the battles enhance or detract from the main themes of the novel and your enjoyment (or otherwise) of it?
Up until this most recent reread I've rather skimmed over the battle scenes. This time I made sure I read them in detail and I did find they added to my enjoyment of the book. The contrast between them and the domestic scenes highlighted the particularly sharp contrasts there are in civil war. I love the descriptions (not just of the battle scenes) but I found her notion that when the orange scarfs met the blue it would be like the autumn woods meeting the sky a bit fanciful.
What did you make of the supernatural elements - the unicorn, Froniga's powers, the tarot cards, Yoben's communication with Madona after his death? Believable? Fanciful?
Totally believable in the context of the book. My mum was always adamant that back in the history of her family there had been a white witch and she (like me, and many others, I suspect) had a few unexplainable experiences which could be defined as supernatural. I feel much affinity with the herbalist or wise woman. I find the description of the tarot cards both beautiful and enchanting, although the latent evangelical in me struggled with it in the past. I would never seek after an experience of it via a spiritualist or some such, but Madona's experience of Yoben after his death and how she brought it to Froniga I found very moving and I sometimes wish there were some way of authentic communication with the people I've loved and lost.
There are powerful themes here of mercy, forgiveness, love, the dangers of religious fanaticism, the horrors of war. Did you find them powerful or a little overly sentimental?
I found them powerful. The depictions of good and God-fearing men on both sides of the camp; how civil war in particular can impact families and friends and lovers; the repeated theme of redemption even from evil actions, both intended and unintended; especially Parson Hawthyn's views on God and love and life. His conversation with Froniga when they meet at the well on the day she visits Mother Skipton is a particular gem.
I don't think Mother Skipton is meant as an exact match to Mother Shipton, though I think the images of what the later was supposed to have looked like might have been in Goudge's mind. I rather liked the scene where Frongia tries to get help from Mother Skipton, 'You'll be wanting a skull then.' They both know the same things, it's just that they use them for different ends.
Could you say more about that, @Trudy ?
I was wondering whether there were any bits you found disturbing, @Mili ?
But there also seems to be quite a number of times in the novel where I got the feeling that they were portrayed in a complex and sympathetic way, as a people with a distinct and valid culture that just happened to be different from the dominant culture. Neither romanticized nor demonized. I liked that, but it also made me wonder about sources, and whether there was any accuracy to her portrayal, as there wouldn't have been contemporary written sources for gypsy culture at the time.
The comment above that Goudge cites Charles Leland as a source is interesting. I had only vaguely heard of Leland before if at all, but I note in the Wikipedia article on his research into gypsy and Indigenous cultures that it says "Scholars have found Leland had taken significant liberties with his research." So I'm still left wondering how close Goudge's portrayal of the gypsies in this novel is to Roma culture in 17th century England, and whether we could ever know how accurate it is?