Clergy Burn Out

Clergy burn out and depression seems quite widespread. What are the causes? What can be done? https://dailym.ai/android
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  • Fr_Gregory_OrthoGuyFr_Gregory_OrthoGuy Shipmate Posts: 18
    This is the link you need, sorry. I know some will wince at the rag but I can't find it anywhere else. https://dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12657815/One-Christian-ministers-want-quit-jobs-stress.html
  • I'd like to know how these findings compare with those for clergypersons in the past, as well as with members of other occupations, past and present.

    And has fundraising suddenly become a more prominent aspect of the job relative to, say, a decade or so ago?
  • Fr_Gregory_OrthoGuyFr_Gregory_OrthoGuy Shipmate Posts: 18
    The Anglican church (UK) has a wonderful inheritance of nicked Catholic buildings from before the Reformation which have now become a noose around its neck financially speaking. There is one deanery in Truro for example that has 21 (I think that's right, it's in the 20's) parish buildings / parishes, now served by two clergy, one of whom has said that she won't / can't work on a Sunday! The diocese has made of this a sort of mega-parish the constituent parts increasingly staffed "on the cheap" by non stipendiary ministers. I can of course see the problem but there is the bigger question of how Christianity regroups itself to evangelise more effectively.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Burn out is a universal problem, not restricted to clergy - though, like @stetson, a comparison of rates of stress in other professions would be useful for perspective. Of course, we shouldn't be seeing clergy burn out, any more than burn out in doctors, care workers, practically the whole voluntary sector ... but, is this a specifically church issue or something relating to society in general?

    And, of course, the "how Christianity regroups itself" is about rediscovery of ancient knowledge - that the Church is the people, and not just the few who stand up front and lead worship. Regrouping needs more members of the church to step up and do more than be there on Sunday, and that needs to be more than the few in every congregation who are themselves close to burn out because of all they do.

    Oh, and welcome back on board.
  • Fr_Gregory_OrthoGuyFr_Gregory_OrthoGuy Shipmate Posts: 18
    Points well made Alan but whereas other professions are unionised, ours largely is not. I think that there is a lot of resentment brewing that the centre has become too expensive, top heavy and unresponsive. Mobilising the laity won't work unless and until there is a deeper analysis of what actually constitutes evangelism, church growth and spiritual maturity. Some denominations suffer from "asset bloat" (asset rich, cash poor). I don't think that a wholesale sell off of church buildings is the answer. Once it's gone it's gone!
  • The other reason why mobilising the laity can't work is that their employers are every bit as good as the Church at provoking burnout, and leaving nothing left for the things they (we) would like to do, even if that does include assisting with certain aspects of church life.

    Most churches have done what most medium to large organisations have done in the West - set themselves in so much bureaucratic resin they can hardly move. Not that they can live entirely without bureaucracy, because no human organisation can. But a view which sees the rest purely as supporting the local communities, in some way or other.
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    While there are many stressful professions where it’s difficult to switch off, it’s particularly difficult for clergy in parishes (possibly a little easier for chaplains as their work is largely in a specific location). It was one aspect that put me off exploring ordination two or three decades ago.
  • Welcome back, Fr Gregory.

    It's not confined to the CofE of course. I know of Orthodox clergy who seem to travel unfeasible distances to minister to their scattered flocks.

    Nor is it a purely British thing either. I spoke to an RC priest from the Ivory Coast a few years ago whose patch covered a large tract of rural France.

    Closer to home, I've heard of two ageing RC priests covering a large swathe of North Wales.

    A Quaker friend told me only yesterday about potential closures of Meetings in the Midlands with people potentially expected to travel a fair distance to the largest and most thriving one which has a regular attendance of around 30 people.

    They are also closing their study centre at Woodbrooke.

    Nor are these things confined to church life or even the workplace. Many very worthy causes and voluntary groups are struggling, not to mention local and regional branches of political parties.

    I don't know what the answer is. Anglican clergy complain of growing managerialism and corporate-speak.

    We seem to be living at a time where there is no shortage of conferences, retreat options, pilgrimage trails and what have you but where most congregations of all stripes are struggling to keep their heads above water.

    Perhaps we need some kind of neo-Tolstoyan, neo-Franciscan grassroots movement of some kind - but not in a hippy-dippy kind of way as that can go whacky like some of the Jesus Movement stuff did in the States.
  • The other reason why mobilising the laity can't work is that their employers are every bit as good as the Church at provoking burnout, and leaving nothing left for the things they (we) would like to do, even if that does include assisting with certain aspects of church life.

    I've thought for some time that this is one of those very real reasons for the Church to take a stand against the current culture of work and employment.
  • Fr_Gregory_OrthoGuyFr_Gregory_OrthoGuy Shipmate Posts: 18
    Gamma Gamaliel, thank you for the welcome back and a very perceptive response. "Organisations that I could belong to" are all suffering from a lack of commitment and suffocating Kafkaesque managerialism, luxuriating in micro management and over regulation. However, there is no shortage of portable, in and out, "experience" and "event" shopping opportunities.

    I believe it would fruitless to head butt the first option and folly to surrender to the second. We need gospel communities that will both grow and endure. I think that this will involve risk taking, creativity and a driving force that will be "not of this world". Transformation comes from above and not at all from existing failed methods. Fresh Expressions and the like are merely rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Hard questions like "what is the Church really here for?" won't go away.
  • Points well made Alan but whereas other professions are unionised, . . . .
    Perhaps where you are, but that isn’t at all the case everywhere.

    I’ve seen a lot of attention paid over the last 10 years or so to the problem of clergy/church worker burnout in my denomination (the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)), and my impression is that similar attention is being paid in other American mainline denominations. This is taking various forms—support and resources for clergy, being better about days off, regular sabbaticals. For example, it’s becoming common for presbyteries to strongly recommend that provisions for sabbaticals be part of the terms of call (the technical term for the contract between a minister and congregation, which includes pay and benefits). As a result, I’ve heard of more ministers taking sabbaticals in the last 10 years than I heard about in the preceding 40 years. It’s becoming more of a given that it should happen.

    Not that these things solve the problem, but they do help.

  • I am uncomfortable with this thread being in Purgatory. If it were in Epiphanies, I would be glad to put in my experience.
  • I'm only familiar with the American mainline Protestants, but anecdotally, every clergyperson I know of is burning out. In the past year, just among churches I'm personally acquainted with, I know of one pastor taking early retirement and one who had to take a six-week leave due to overwhelming stress.

    I think, like a lot of other things, it was an existing problem that was drastically worsened by the pandemic. In America especially, all of our covid mitigation measures were rapidly politicized, and a lot of clergy got smashed in the middle between opposing factions in their congregations. Plus, most churches are down about 30% in offerings and in attendance / volunteer availability since pre-pandemic. It's a rough time.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    I think, like a lot of other things, it was an existing problem that was drastically worsened by the pandemic.
    My observations have been that the pandemic worsened the situation in some places, but brought it to a head and promoted change in others. As just one example, I’ve known a number of ministers who’ve said the work-life balance improved once members of their congregations became used to Zoom meetings, allowing them to be home more. The pandemic seemed to free some clergy to talk about what they need, and seemed to make it easier for some congregations to hear what their clergy were saying.

    With regard to American mainline churches and clergy burnout, I think the United Methodist Church likely, and sadly, is in a class all its own right now. I’ve talked with a number of UMC clergy recently, and to a person they’ve talked about how dispiriting and draining the last few years have been. A rough time indeed.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    As we are embarked on a search for a new rector, are you able to go into detail about the "dispiriting and draining". I'd have thought that any clergy position would be draining, but don't understand the dispiriting.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Over 6500 US congregations have disaffiliated from the United Methodist Church in the last 5 years. They've been going through the same arguments other mainline Protestant churches have had, but during a global pandemic.
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I’ve seen a lot of attention paid over the last 10 years or so to the problem of clergy/church worker burnout in my denomination (the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)), and my impression is that similar attention is being paid in other American mainline denominations. This is taking various forms—support and resources for clergy, being better about days off, regular sabbaticals.

    I imagine some churches are handling this better than others. The minister I reported to in my last job held forth at bitter length over being required by the local conference of the United Church of Christ to attend a Zoom webinar on self-care which she considered a huge waste of time she could have spent actually caring for herself. She was on loan from another conference which also required a similar BS thing on Zoom.

    But all the clergy I've known in the UCC and in the Episcopal Church over the last 30 years had sabbaticals when appropriate -- it's just part of the deal.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    Gee D wrote: »
    As we are embarked on a search for a new rector, are you able to go into detail about the "dispiriting and draining". I'd have thought that any clergy position would be draining, but don't understand the dispiriting.
    My “dispiriting and draining” observation was with specific regard to clergy in the United Methodist Church. The UMC has been going through something of a schism over the last few years, stemming from disagreements about human sexuality and the place of LGBTQ+ people in the church. In 2022 and 2023, a window has been open during which congregations can go through a process to vote on whether to stay in the UMC or leave (“disaffiliate”). A vote to disaffiliate requires a 2/3 majority, and the disaffiliation must then be approved by the annual conference (regional body). Approval is only given if certain financial requirements are met. Over 6,500 congregations in the US have disaffiliated from the UMC so far. (In the annual conference for where I live, over 30% of UMC congregations, mostly rural, have disaffiliated.)

    The majority of UMC congregations, at least in my part of the US, have been touched in one way or another by the situation, even if only by being a “lighthouse congregation,” meaning they’re welcoming “refugees” from disaffiliating congregations. Many, many clergy have had to deal with divided congregations or with congregations that decided to disaffiliate, and all the anger and frustration and blame and hurt and hard feelings that can go with that. To say that it has been a very hard time for the UMC clergy I know would be a gross understatement.

    Ruth wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I’ve seen a lot of attention paid over the last 10 years or so to the problem of clergy/church worker burnout in my denomination (the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)), and my impression is that similar attention is being paid in other American mainline denominations. This is taking various forms—support and resources for clergy, being better about days off, regular sabbaticals.

    I imagine some churches are handling this better than others. The minister I reported to in my last job held forth at bitter length over being required by the local conference of the United Church of Christ to attend a Zoom webinar on self-care which she considered a huge waste of time she could have spent actually caring for herself. She was on loan from another conference which also required a similar BS thing on Zoom.
    Oh good grief. Yeah, that sort of inanity isn’t the kind of thing I had in mind. I was thinking more of our pastor’s observation that meetings by Zoom rather than at the church meant that for an evening meeting, she could eat with her family before the meeting and maybe tuck the kids in after the meeting, because she only had to go to another room in the house rather than stay at the church for the meeting and then drive home from church afterward.

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    I was chatting to a young priest friend recently. Five years ordained, he now runs two major diocesan departments (he was a lawyer in his previous life) as well as being the sole pastor in a large city parish. As he put it "I'm doing three jobs badly." A recipe for burn-out.
    Severe shortage of diocesan funds means that roles which were previously undertaken by qualified and salaried lay folk are now done by over stretched clergy. I do not see the situation improving unless bullets are bitten and dioceses, or at least their administrations are combined,
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I am uncomfortable with this thread being in Purgatory. If it were in Epiphanies, I would be glad to put in my experience.

    This is under discussion backstage, watch this space, but in future - if you wish to discuss ships business, please use Styx.

    Thanks,

    Doublethink, Admin
  • Gamma Gamaliel, thank you for the welcome back and a very perceptive response. "Organisations that I could belong to" are all suffering from a lack of commitment and suffocating Kafkaesque managerialism, luxuriating in micro management and over regulation. However, there is no shortage of portable, in and out, "experience" and "event" shopping opportunities.

    I believe it would fruitless to head butt the first option and folly to surrender to the second. We need gospel communities that will both grow and endure. I think that this will involve risk taking, creativity and a driving force that will be "not of this world". Transformation comes from above and not at all from existing failed methods. Fresh Expressions and the like are merely rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Hard questions like "what is the Church really here for?" won't go away.

    Thanks Fr Gregory.

    I think we'd all agree that we need 'gospel communities that will both grow and endure' - whatever form those take within our respective traditions - whether parish or congregational models, monastic or neo-monastic communities and so on.

    The $64k question is how we create, encourage and suatain that. Yes, transformation comes from above but it doesn't happen in a vacuum or in the ether.

    At the Feeding of the 5000, Christ had the multitude grouped in 10s, 20s and 50s or whatever size the groups were.

    No, we shouldn't knock ourselves out head-butting against managerial structures - although I am heartened and intrigued by @chrisstiles suggestion that churches challenge current work models. Neither should we succumb to the current pick and mix trend towards cafeteria Christianity - although I remain convinced we can all learn from one another's practices and experiences.

    The traditional parish model no longer seems to be working - although there are attempts within the CofE to revive it. There is talk of 'minsters' as hubs or centres of resource as they were in Anglo-Saxon England.

    But how do we address the central question, which it seems to me, is one of creating and maintaining gospel communities?

    That's a bigger question than clerical burn out or ministerial models.
  • I like @ThunderBunk 's phrase 'bureaucratic resin'.
    What do you mean, @Gamma Gamaliel by 'cafeteria Christianity'?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Nick Tamen - thanks for the detail.
  • A genuine question: is clergy burn-out more prevalent in churches which place greater emphasis on ordination and/or the sacraments?

    I ask because I can conceive of a Vicar or Catholic priest dashing round multiple churches every Sunday in order to preside at Communion services. Conversely in my tradition the majority of services are not Eucharistic (although, as we start with a "blank sheet of paper" every time, they may take longer to prepare), nor does Communion necessarily have to be led by an ordained Minister.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Generally it's not the leading of worship itself that is the problem (my grandfather was doing 3 communions and evensong between 12 churches in rural Lincolnshire for a couple of decades starting 50 years ago), it's the constant ratcheting up of workload, the feeling of helplessness as your congregation gets older and smaller despite everything you do, the demands for paperwork and compliance from the centre accompanied by initiativitis etc etc.
  • Generally it's not the leading of worship itself that is the problem (my grandfather was doing 3 communions and evensong between 12 churches in rural Lincolnshire for a couple of decades starting 50 years ago), it's the constant ratcheting up of workload, the feeling of helplessness as your congregation gets older and smaller despite everything you do, the demands for paperwork and compliance from the centre accompanied by initiativitis etc etc.

    Some years ago I heard of some stats that suggested that Pentecostal ministers were more likely to burn out than ministers/clergy of other churches.

    The conclusion was that they were under pressure from their congregations and their own revivalist approach to produce the goods when it came to miraculous healings, deliverances and crowds of new converts.

    I'm not sure that still applies as Pentecostalism has become more mainstream and creates its own checks and balances.

    I don't know what the level of burn out is in Baptist and other congregational churches but I've certainly known or heard of ministerial burn out in those circles - as I'm sure you will know much better than I do.

    I suspect that this is something that doesn't apply any more or any less within particular Christian traditions. It's probably just as debilitating conducting services and dealing with congregational issues in a Baptist or independent church as it is driving round and round celebrating communion for scattered rural parishes.

    I think the issues are wider than clerical/ministerial burn-out too.

    Cultural and societal changes and many other factors besides.
  • Strange, I thought I was replying to @Baptist Trainfan not @Arethosemyfeet but hey ...

    @Merry Vole - the term 'Cafeteria Christianity' is generally used in a derogatory way to refer to those who pick and choose what they want to believe or emphasise. To that extent it probably applies to each and everyone of us!

    So, for instance, a 'Cafeteria Catholic' would be someone who accepts and practices certain RC teachings but rejects others.

    It may be the wrong term for me to have used in this context.

    I was thinking more of the consumerist tendency which again, I suspect applies to most if not all of us including myself. As in, ''I'll dip into Ignatian spirituality this week, bob along to a charismatic meeting next week and perhaps the Quakers the week after that ...'

    Not that I think that sampling or visiting or seeking to learn from other traditions is a bad thing - of course not.

    But there does seem to be a kind of 'pop-up shop' or 'event' or 'experience' thing going on which Fr Gregory alluded to.

    I'm as susceptible to it as anyone else.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Declining congregations are extremely reluctant (in my experience) to merge in order to reduce the workload on peripatetic clergy. Buildings coming before people etc. When does a community become a small club?

  • Some years ago I heard of some stats that suggested that Pentecostal ministers were more likely to burn out than ministers/clergy of other churches.

    The conclusion was that they were under pressure from their congregations and their own revivalist approach to produce the goods when it came to miraculous healings, deliverances and crowds of new converts.
    Yes, I remember reading that - also the pressure to always present a positive image ("Isn't God great?!!!") rather than admitting that their faith was sometimes fragile. True of other traditions, as we can't let out all our problems and feelings in the pulpit, but possibly more marked in the Pentecostal/Charismatic sector.

  • I was thinking more of the consumerist tendency which again, I suspect applies to most if not all of us including myself.
    Which means that there is huge pressure on ministers and churches to "put on a good show" and appear "successful" - after all, they are competing for a share of a diminishing market.

  • Fr_Gregory_OrthoGuyFr_Gregory_OrthoGuy Shipmate Posts: 18
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Points well made Alan but whereas other professions are unionised, . . . .
    Perhaps where you are, but that isn’t at all the case everywhere.

    I’ve seen a lot of attention paid over the last 10 years or so to the problem of clergy/church worker burnout in my denomination (the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)), and my impression is that similar attention is being paid in other American mainline denominations. This is taking various forms—support and resources for clergy, being better about days off, regular sabbaticals. For example, it’s becoming common for presbyteries to strongly recommend that provisions for sabbaticals be part of the terms of call (the technical term for the contract between a minister and congregation, which includes pay and benefits). As a result, I’ve heard of more ministers taking sabbaticals in the last 10 years than I heard about in the preceding 40 years. It’s becoming more of a given that it should happen.

    Not that these things solve the problem, but they do help.

    That's excellent!
  • Fr_Gregory_OrthoGuyFr_Gregory_OrthoGuy Shipmate Posts: 18
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Declining congregations are extremely reluctant (in my experience) to merge in order to reduce the workload on peripatetic clergy. Buildings coming before people etc. When does a community become a small club?

    ..... when it ceases to desire to embrace new people. The buildings issue is difficult. We must not underestimate the pull, psychologically speaking, of places where we gather. A purely functionalist approach neglects this basic human sense and need. However, when the cost of upkeep of buildings, (no matter how valued or sacred), starts to compromise community life and mission, it's about time to call quits.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    The thing about sabbaticals is that hardly anyone else gets them. In the US it's mainly just clergy and professors. So it can be a hard sell for people in the congregation that they should pay a minister for several months plus play for some kind of coverage of that job when most laypeople don't get sabbaticals. One senior minister I reported to complained to me about the congregation not covering some sabbatical expenses on top of her pay, and it was all I could do not to scream - I'd worked for that church for 19 years, I'd been working for 35 years, and I'd never gotten a sabbatical. And she made a lot more money than me, and she'll have a guaranteed pension when she retires - something else most workers don't get in the US.
  • Yes, the US is bad that way.

    Nobody gets a sabbatical here either other than clergy and professors, but for the time being at least, most of us are guaranteed a pension.

    I don't know how much clergy get paid in the US but I get the impression it can be more than clergy and ministers elsewhere. Not that looking at how much people get paid - or 'make' to use the American expression - is becoming to those of us in polite society ... 😉

    My experience of Australians is that they ask direct questions about that. British and Americans far, far less so.

    Mind you, in some European countries clergy are civil servants and paid for from government funds - Greece and some Scandinavian countries I think.

    Perhaps we should 'nationalise' religion ... now where have I heard that before?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    The option to take a sabbatical is part of the conditions of service for teachers in Scotland, but it is unpaid and I've not been aware of the option ever being exercised.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Moving on upto Epiphanies - please be mindful of the guidelines in the new forum.

    Thanks,

    Doublethink, Admin
  • The option to take a sabbatical is part of the conditions of service for teachers in Scotland, but it is unpaid and I've not been aware of the option ever being exercised.

    I know of two teaching colleagues here in England, people I worked and highly valued by their headteachers. Both of them were given an unpaid leave of absence/ sabbatical of a year to go and volunteer abroad.
  • This whole topic reminds me of burnout problems involving nurses, teachers and many others. Is this a societal problem? Can we characterize the occupations in which burnout is a serious problem?
  • I suspect burn-out is characteristic of a whole range of occupations and is an area which doesn't attract the attention it deserves.

    I may start a new thread to pursue the idea @chrisstiles raised about churches seeking to counterbalance or challenge prevailing attitudes to work.

    That's an interesting aspect to investigate, I think.

    I remember a Baptist minister who'd just come back from a conference run by a restorationist 'new church' network telling me how frenetic he found the whole thing.

    One of these churches was run by a husband and wife team who boasted that they had full-on 'professionals' in their congregation who thought nothing of doing a 40+ hour week only to get home in the evening and dash out to house-group or lead Bible studies or youth work or run this, that or the other ministry on a Sunday morning.

    Rah rah rah ... busy busy busy busy busy ...

    I'm pretty sure that's not what Chrisstiles has in mind.

    Somehow we've got to be counter-cultural in all of this.

    Conversely, I remember an Anglican vicar complaining that he was expected to go into a primary school to hear children read. When I asked him how much of his time this took ip he replied, 'an hour a week.'

    My heart bled.

    Ok, an hour a week would be a lot if he'd been a junior doctor working unfeasible shifts or working in the hospitality sector ...
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    HarryCH wrote: »
    This whole topic reminds me of burnout problems involving nurses, teachers and many others. Is this a societal problem? Can we characterize the occupations in which burnout is a serious problem?

    It is definitely a societal problem. The helping professions seem particularly susceptible - clergy, educators, social workers, healthcare workers, et al. - but everyone from well-paid lawyers and tech workers to underpaid Amazon warehouse workers can and do experience burnout. According to a 2022 Gallup poll, more K-12 teachers are burned out than any other category, at 44%: https://news.gallup.com/poll/393500/workers-highest-burnout-rate.aspx. People working in retail were at 32%, people in the law and healthcare both came in at 31%, and finance the lowest in categories surveyed at 21%.
  • One of these churches was run by a husband and wife team who boasted that they had full-on 'professionals' in their congregation who thought nothing of doing a 40+ hour week only to get home in the evening and dash out to house-group or lead Bible studies or youth work or run this, that or the other ministry on a Sunday morning.

    Rah rah rah ... busy busy busy busy busy ...

    I'm pretty sure that's not what Chrisstiles has in mind.

    Well, not directly, but I think it's part of the same phenomena - and I think (from experience on both sides of the pond) that such churches often model themselves on business startups. It used to be more of a US thing, but it's becoming distressingly more common in the UK.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I don't seem to have found a definition of burnout above so I thought I would drop this in.
    https://www.camh.ca/en/camh-news-and-stories/career-burnout

    Having worked in the helping professions for 30 years it is something I have to be on the alert for in myself, and just as importantly, for my colleagues. As I remind them, and sometimes need to remind myself, you are no damned good for your clients when you are unwell.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    It does seem ironic that so much busyness and human effort seems to be pushed by churches whose theology officially stresses the sovereignity of God and the futility of trying to save yourself by works.

    Is it a sign of desperation? "The church is in decline and so we must DO this and DO that and DO the other"....
  • One of these churches was run by a husband and wife team who boasted that they had full-on 'professionals' in their congregation who thought nothing of doing a 40+ hour week only to get home in the evening and dash out to house-group or lead Bible studies or youth work or run this, that or the other ministry on a Sunday morning.

    Rah rah rah ... busy busy busy busy busy ...

    I'm pretty sure that's not what Chrisstiles has in mind.

    Well, not directly, but I think it's part of the same phenomena - and I think (from experience on both sides of the pond) that such churches often model themselves on business startups. It used to be more of a US thing, but it's becoming distressingly more common in the UK.

    Indeed.

    I was riffing off on a tangent to some extent but I s'pose what I was getting at was that some churches by their very ethos contribute to the problem.

    It's not clear cut though. Arguably in a post-Christian society we need entrepreneurial models of church.

    That doesn't necessarily imply a business model in the corporate sense.

    But then, monasteries have been marketing soap, honey, crafts and booze whether high end Trappist ales or gut-rot (Buckfast anyone?) for many years.

    Anyhow ... time to start the thread I threatened...
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    There's a shortage of chartreuse because the Carthusian monks who make it refuse to scale up production to meet increased demand.
  • Are they doing so for ethical or conscientious reasons @Ruth or in a cynically capitalist way to increase the price and value of a premium product by restricting production?

    Burgundian wine producers increase and maintain the value of their wines by restricting production. That's why Chablis is expensive. It's a marketing decision based on creating the conditions to charge a premium price.

    Whatever the case, this might be a tangent to explore on the new working patterns thread rather than here on the clergy burnout topic.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Ethical and conscientious reasons. They don't want to take more time away from their prayers and they don't want to use up more resources - it takes something like 40 tons of ingredients to produce however much chartreuse they make in a year, and they say it wouldn't be responsible to use more.
  • Good for them then.

    I don't think I've ever had any chartreuse. Perhaps I ought to get some and drink the Carthusians health with it.

    I'm partial to a Trappist ale but whole years go by without my supping one.

    My kids would get fed in with my quips that it tastes Orval.

    I'll get me coat ...
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    I remember a retreat giver once telling us that we are "Human Beings" not "Human Doings."
    That, from a man who never had to work to put bread on his family table because he was a priest and therefore was supported no matter how little he did, rang hollow.
  • That sounds a very 'Protestant' argument to me. Are you going to dissolve the monasteries as well?

    I can understand the sentiment but I don't get the impression he was bellowing, 'Work! Work! Work you idle layabouts!' In which case it would ring even more hollow.

    But yes ...

    My understanding is that RC priests don't get paid a great deal and that Protestant ministers and clergy are generally better off.

    It's one of the arguments I've heard cited for clerical celibacy as well as the ability to whisk them off to another parish at a moment's notice.

    Grey and awkward areas in all of this.

    Franciscan poverty sounds a noble ideal until you realise that the friars went round begging and skanking off other people instead of doing 'proper jobs' like everyone else. 😉

    Does absolutely everyone have to be economically active to have something to say or contribute? To have any value in society?

    They should have introduced National Service. That would have sorted them out. Blasted hippies ...

    Julian of Norwich couldn't have been an anchorite if people hadn't brought her gifts or endowments. She employed a servant who needed to be paid.

    How do we pay for the maintenance of a 'contemplative tradition'?

    It's certainly possible to be too heavenly minded to be of any earthly use but the reverse can also be true. If clergy, ministers or monastics are too busy working or bottling Chartreuse then surely their vocation and ministry will suffer?
  • It's not clear cut though. Arguably in a post-Christian society we need entrepreneurial models of church.

    That doesn't necessarily imply a business model in the corporate sense.

    But then, monasteries have been marketing soap, honey, crafts and booze whether high end Trappist ales or gut-rot (Buckfast anyone?) for many years.

    In terms of thinking differently perhaps, sometimes. In the sense of merging every spare bit of leisure that isn't already captured by corporations into one never-ending grindset, it seems quite at odds with 'Sabbath's Rest'
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