My thoughts go out to the poor driver and fireman, as always when I see this sort of an image. Who thought it was a good idea to have them exposed to the elements?!
Yes, I know this was how it was done 'in the beginning'; after all, it hadn't been much different for horseriders and coach drivers and for hundreds of years, but the driving speed and the smoke and steam of a railway, that was an entirely new thing. - I'd be curious to investigate the advent of the cab roof. I think they first put up some sort of raised screen, then with tiny windows, then with a mini roof, etc.
Another fascinating story to look into at some point.
IIRC cabs were actually resisted by crews initially *because* of the job’s descent from coachmen. It was a symbol of masculinity to be able to be exposed to all weathers and take it.
Eventually of course common sense took over (to an extent, depending on the company) but from memory it was a good couple of decades before most* of the old coachmen had worked out of the system and a new breed were open to doing things differently. Essentially, blame the culture of the crews themselves, not the designers.
*though off the top of my head the last direct transfers from stagecoach crew to loco crew in the UK would have been with the opening of the Lynton and Barnstaple just before the dawn of the 20th century!
I believe some tram drivers objected to enclosed platforms on a similar basis - they were men and therefore tough.
(In their case, there was also an issue with glass, prior to the invention of safety glass.)
I think it is scarcely radical to assert that traditional railwaymen were a tad conservative. They rarely liked locos off other lines. In my boyhood, I knew some old fellows who barely recognised the LNER, let alone BR. As for the London Midland Region - the 'Midland' as they called it - that was absolute anathema.
Sir Arthur Heywood (1849 - 1916), the champion of the *Minimum Gauge* railway (15 inches) designed and built some delightful little locomotives, all of which had open cabs.
Sir Arthur is reputed to have said that a stout mackintosh was better for the driver's health and safety...
One of his engines - much rebuilt - survives as the Ravenglass & Eskdale's River Irt, but there are some accurate modern-day replicas in existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Heywood
There were some nice Heywood artefacts on the Perrygrove Railway in the Forest of Dean but, alas, the line is now more "child-oriented" and I never saw them.
The early Great Western Railway rules instructed the Enginemen to wear *white fustian* overalls, clean every Monday, which must have looked a bit the worse for wear by Saturday...
The early Great Western Railway rules instructed the Enginemen to wear *white fustian* overalls, clean every Monday, which must have looked a bit the worse for wear by Saturday...
Quite a few years ago now, I read an article in, I think the Railway Magazine about the poem 'Adlestrop' by Edward Thomas, in which, as shipmates wil recall, the express train fuppwmup there 'unwontedly'. The writer of the article researched the signalmen's logs for Adlestrop for the approximate period and found there was indeed a day in August 1914 then the through train was held there to enable a troop train to cross in front of it on the way to the Channel Ports at, of course, the outbreak of war. Can any other shipmate confirm this? The poetry analysis sites on line seem to be unaware of it.
Hmm. The Wikipedia article says that Thomas' train stopped there, possibly as scheduled, in June 1914 - before the outbreak of war - but, of course, it may have been necessary for a late-running preceding train to clear the section before his train could proceed, hence a longer stop than usual.
On liveries, there was a LNWR Webb compound, a 2-4-2 tender engine, or more correctly I suspect a 2-2-2-2 which for a while appeared in a white livery, both very impractical and distinctly odd for the LNWR which was quite happy to waste money on cheap engines that didn't work very well and were expensive to maintain, but normally instead on black for everything as the economics option.
On liveries, there was a LNWR Webb compound, a 2-4-2 tender engine, or more correctly I suspect a 2-2-2-2 which for a while appeared in a white livery, both very impractical and distinctly odd for the LNWR which was quite happy to waste money on cheap engines that didn't work very well and were expensive to maintain, but normally instead on black for everything as the economics option.
The story there, according to my maternal grandfather (who went to a boarding school beside the L&NWR main line at Pinner) was that they saw three of them: one each in red, white and blue. He was born in 1886, so it was probably for Queen Victoria's diamond jubilee. It's probably easy enough to check, but it's late at night...
On liveries, there was a LNWR Webb compound, a 2-4-2 tender engine, or more correctly I suspect a 2-2-2-2 which for a while appeared in a white livery, both very impractical and distinctly odd for the LNWR which was quite happy to waste money on cheap engines that didn't work very well and were expensive to maintain, but normally instead on black for everything as the economics option.
The story there, according to my maternal grandfather (who went to a boarding school beside the L&NWR main line at Pinner) was that they saw three of them: one each in red, white and blue. He was born in 1886, so it was probably for Queen Victoria's diamond jubilee. It's probably easy enough to check, but it's late at night...
I've also read recently that at some meeting of locomotive engineers at which Webb was vaunting how economical his compounds were and how efficient he was at building locomotives cheaply, compared with what this was costing other railways Stroudley pointed out that the paint for his improved engine green (actually, of course what everyone else then and since has called yellow) didn't cost any more than Webb's black.
Stroudley was simply talking about the costs of the ingredients. Paint came as powder in those days, not in tins. He conveniently left out of the calculation the effort involved in the complicated lining and finishing involved.
All the railway books I have read agree that however efficient Webb's compounds may have been on paper, in practice on wet, slippery British rail they didn't work very well. And Stroudley must have been colour=blind.
Yes, Webb's compounds weren't very good - but no-one employed by the LNWR was allowed to SAY that...
IIRC, it's now generally thought that William Stroudley was indeed slightly colour-blind, albeit with splendid results as far as his engine livery was concerned! FWIW, I see his *Improved Engine Green* as a sort of yellow ochre, rather than (say) sunshine or daffodil yellow...
Webb was influenced by the LNWR's policy of never spending a penny when a half penny would do, and I think his downfall was the rapid increase in the weight of passenger trains due to bigger bogie coaches, dining cars, electrical lighting and all the other stuff that came online almost at once in the face of competition. For some years, the LNWR had to double-head most of its most important trains, prolonging the life of the 2-2-2 engines for some time as they were used as pilots.
Then Whale built bigger engines (sometimes called 'mankillers' because of the demands on the fireman) and the 2-2-2 engines were rapidly scrapped. As were many other engines considered obsolete, so that for a time the company was a tad short of engines. I'm not sure the whole debacle can justly be pinned on Webb. In many ways, he was a great engineer. But like many executives of those days, he was a martinet, and not apt to heed the counsel of others. Or even to listen to it.
What's interesting is that some of the earlier Webb compounds, eg the Teutonics, weren't bad. In some later ones Webb got the ratio of HP and LP cylinder sizes badly wrong; coupling the wheels didn't help either.
Webb was notoriously impatient with anyone who dared try to advise him. Crewe might have been like the court of Henry VIII or Charles I. You did not get on if you disagreed with the boss.
I think compounds generally require a more skilled driver. I do recall an account from a former LNWR footplateman who praised the particular compounds he worked on - goods engines I think. The same chap had very hard words for the Stanier Black 5s, which most enthusiasts seem to believe were excellent. I suppose it all comes down to opinion, but I would not discount the views of someone who worked on the things.
Loyalty to the old pre-grouping companies died hard - maybe an ex-LNWR man wasn't all that keen on a locomotive designed at Derby*, and therefore regarded as a Midland-inspired Engine-of-Satan...
*over 200 Black 5s were actually built at Crewe, presumably in the former LNWR works.
I believe that they have been in tussles with Hornby and Bachmann for years, over pricing and stock levels. But I also think that model railways are now a niche (and expensive) adult thing, not an "every boy wants" toy.
I believe that they have been in tussles with Hornby and Bachmann for years, over pricing and stock levels. But I also think that model railways are now a niche (and expensive) adult thing, not an "every boy wants" toy.
I've dealt with Hattons on many occasions, and found them invariably helpful and efficient - and with reasonable prices, considering how generally expensive model railways are these days.
I've just received their email, and I, too, am very sad about their impending closure. Back in 1984, I visited their shop - then in Smithdown Road, long before they moved to Widnes.
Hattons have told me that items pre-ordered through them can now be ordered via another well-known model retailer, and I have followed their advice. All is not lost...
For those who might be mystified (although I doubt if any non-cognoscenti are following this), we are bewailing the demise of one of England's oldest and most respected retailers of model railway items.
A first-world problem, I know, but spare a thought and a prayer for Hattons' dedicated and loyal staff, who will now have to search for alternative employment.
However (there's always a however), can we also take a minute to applaud the approach that Hattons have taken here?
They've not gone bust, they've not done a runner into the night. They've announced that they are going to close down. They're still selling the products they've got, they're cancelling the pre-orders they can't fulfil, and fundamentally they're still manning the phones and the tills under the control of the normal owners and management.
If every business pulled the plug *before* it hit the wall or was driven into the ground we'd be a healthier society. Takes brave and decent owners/employers to do this I think.
ETA - for the uninitiated, this is not a small corner shop with a staff of 3 - Hattons is a serious and sizable business.
However (there's always a however), can we also take a minute to applaud the approach that Hattons have taken here?
They've not gone bust, they've not done a runner into the night. They've announced that they are going to close down. They're still selling the products they've got, they're cancelling the pre-orders they can't fulfil, and fundamentally they're still manning the phones and the tills under the control of the normal owners and management.
If every business pulled the plug *before* it hit the wall or was driven into the ground we'd be a healthier society. Takes brave and decent owners/employers to do this I think.
ETA - for the uninitiated, this is not a small corner shop with a staff of 3 - Hattons is a serious and sizable business.
One of our Australian model railway importers and retailers recently undertook a similar strategy, as the owners wished to retire, and had previously been unable to find a buyer for the business. Lo and behold, in the midst of the closing-down sale, such a buyer emerged and the business is continuing, to the great relief of those who model European outline in HO and N scale.
A sad loss - I had some dealings with Hattons, always satisfactory. The most recent one was my Christmas present from their second hand list. Even for a fairly low value order they could not have been more helpful when there was a gremlin in the credit card processing. Did anyone try to get on their website today? It was glacial! I am sure everyone was rushing to find a bargain. I did....
Hattons' demise even hit the news in our over 'ere Continental Railway Fora. We N-gaugers used to love getting Peco tracks from them at very reasonable prices.
I always wondered how they kept their prices so low. Was it because they bought in bulk, getting good prices from the manufacturers but taking the hit if stock remained unsold? Have the manufacturers refused to play ball in recent times and so hit their profit margins? Is it because the whole model railway market has contracted and become more specialised? Could be any of these of course. What's the word on the enthusiasts' forums?
PS As a teenager I used Peco N gauge track. They got things wrong when they released their first turnouts, which were 36" radius - I think they assumed that modellers would use N gauge to create gently-curved layouts in the same spaces that folk used for 00 gauge ones, rather than smaller layouts with sharper bends. Only later did 18" radius points (and the shaper Setrack ones) appear, by which time I was using Graham Farish track.
If you look on RMWeb, which is probably the largest, you'll find a (currently) 19 page thread - I'd link but I'm not sure we link to other forums from SoF(?) which amazingly is mostly an outpouring of grief and obeying the Admin injunction to leave speculation for a decent time period.
What many people felt needed to be canned and sold was the old Glasgow Subway Smell - very distinctive. I don't know if it smells these days, but it's a definite lack in the Transport Museum re-creation.
There are also distinctive London Underground and Budapest Metro smells. There may well be others, though the Lisbon Metropolitano doesn't seem to have anything specific.
The older Southern Railway electric units (2BILs and 2HALs) had a distinctive smell - probably electrical in origin IYSWIM.
How about some distinctive sights and sounds from pre-grouping days? Here's one of a series of videos featuring a rather gorgeous Gauge 1 garden railway (stud contact pick-up, I think) on which the owner was able to run a wonderful collection of period models:
I am not - scented candles of any kind are An Abomination.
I was though just thinking that a scented candle of that kind near the layout, coupled with a bit of DCC digital sound, might actually be interesting....
I am not - scented candles of any kind are An Abomination.
I was though just thinking that a scented candle of that kind near the layout, coupled with a bit of DCC digital sound, might actually be interesting....
Budget multimedia experience 😁 I'm curious to know whether it really does smell of it. But not to the extent I'd buy it to find out.
Comments
IIRC cabs were actually resisted by crews initially *because* of the job’s descent from coachmen. It was a symbol of masculinity to be able to be exposed to all weathers and take it.
Eventually of course common sense took over (to an extent, depending on the company) but from memory it was a good couple of decades before most* of the old coachmen had worked out of the system and a new breed were open to doing things differently. Essentially, blame the culture of the crews themselves, not the designers.
*though off the top of my head the last direct transfers from stagecoach crew to loco crew in the UK would have been with the opening of the Lynton and Barnstaple just before the dawn of the 20th century!
(In their case, there was also an issue with glass, prior to the invention of safety glass.)
I think it is scarcely radical to assert that traditional railwaymen were a tad conservative. They rarely liked locos off other lines. In my boyhood, I knew some old fellows who barely recognised the LNER, let alone BR. As for the London Midland Region - the 'Midland' as they called it - that was absolute anathema.
Sir Arthur is reputed to have said that a stout mackintosh was better for the driver's health and safety...
One of his engines - much rebuilt - survives as the Ravenglass & Eskdale's River Irt, but there are some accurate modern-day replicas in existence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Heywood
There were some nice Heywood artefacts on the Perrygrove Railway in the Forest of Dean but, alas, the line is now more "child-oriented" and I never saw them.
Such attire is still available:
https://theppeonlineshop.co.uk/Click-Cotton-Drill-Boilersuit.html?size=46&dfw_tracker=140702-CDBSW46&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA4smsBhAEEiwAO6DEjSR9PAMgb-8Ef_Hymm3Yg3TNTPLEhHB7hiuybEcdMaUPbfrIsTIMCxoCVKAQAvD_BwE
(A Pollo Gees for the cumbersome linky)
As also worn when required by officers in the Royal Navy (non officer wear navy blue)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adlestrop_railway_station
The story there, according to my maternal grandfather (who went to a boarding school beside the L&NWR main line at Pinner) was that they saw three of them: one each in red, white and blue. He was born in 1886, so it was probably for Queen Victoria's diamond jubilee. It's probably easy enough to check, but it's late at night...
Stroudley was simply talking about the costs of the ingredients. Paint came as powder in those days, not in tins. He conveniently left out of the calculation the effort involved in the complicated lining and finishing involved.
IIRC, it's now generally thought that William Stroudley was indeed slightly colour-blind, albeit with splendid results as far as his engine livery was concerned! FWIW, I see his *Improved Engine Green* as a sort of yellow ochre, rather than (say) sunshine or daffodil yellow...
Then Whale built bigger engines (sometimes called 'mankillers' because of the demands on the fireman) and the 2-2-2 engines were rapidly scrapped. As were many other engines considered obsolete, so that for a time the company was a tad short of engines. I'm not sure the whole debacle can justly be pinned on Webb. In many ways, he was a great engineer. But like many executives of those days, he was a martinet, and not apt to heed the counsel of others. Or even to listen to it.
True it is that a lot of these engineer and/or manager chaps insisted on being Kings in their kingdoms.
I think compounds generally require a more skilled driver. I do recall an account from a former LNWR footplateman who praised the particular compounds he worked on - goods engines I think. The same chap had very hard words for the Stanier Black 5s, which most enthusiasts seem to believe were excellent. I suppose it all comes down to opinion, but I would not discount the views of someone who worked on the things.
*over 200 Black 5s were actually built at Crewe, presumably in the former LNWR works.
And Swindon, given they’re just a poor man/railway’s copy of a Hall… 😉
Gobsmacked.
I believe that they have been in tussles with Hornby and Bachmann for years, over pricing and stock levels. But I also think that model railways are now a niche (and expensive) adult thing, not an "every boy wants" toy.
I've dealt with Hattons on many occasions, and found them invariably helpful and efficient - and with reasonable prices, considering how generally expensive model railways are these days.
I've just received their email, and I, too, am very sad about their impending closure. Back in 1984, I visited their shop - then in Smithdown Road, long before they moved to Widnes.
Hattons have told me that items pre-ordered through them can now be ordered via another well-known model retailer, and I have followed their advice. All is not lost...
A first-world problem, I know, but spare a thought and a prayer for Hattons' dedicated and loyal staff, who will now have to search for alternative employment.
They've not gone bust, they've not done a runner into the night. They've announced that they are going to close down. They're still selling the products they've got, they're cancelling the pre-orders they can't fulfil, and fundamentally they're still manning the phones and the tills under the control of the normal owners and management.
If every business pulled the plug *before* it hit the wall or was driven into the ground we'd be a healthier society. Takes brave and decent owners/employers to do this I think.
ETA - for the uninitiated, this is not a small corner shop with a staff of 3 - Hattons is a serious and sizable business.
Agreed.
🙇♂️
PS As a teenager I used Peco N gauge track. They got things wrong when they released their first turnouts, which were 36" radius - I think they assumed that modellers would use N gauge to create gently-curved layouts in the same spaces that folk used for 00 gauge ones, rather than smaller layouts with sharper bends. Only later did 18" radius points (and the shaper Setrack ones) appear, by which time I was using Graham Farish track.
If you look on RMWeb, which is probably the largest, you'll find a (currently) 19 page thread - I'd link but I'm not sure we link to other forums from SoF(?) which amazingly is mostly an outpouring of grief and obeying the Admin injunction to leave speculation for a decent time period.
I'll PM you.
Unto Nuggan? Oh, sorry, wrong thread!
There are also distinctive London Underground and Budapest Metro smells. There may well be others, though the Lisbon Metropolitano doesn't seem to have anything specific.
How about some distinctive sights and sounds from pre-grouping days? Here's one of a series of videos featuring a rather gorgeous Gauge 1 garden railway (stud contact pick-up, I think) on which the owner was able to run a wonderful collection of period models:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3SOzcLvaGk
Enter *Duck End Pictures* for more adventures of Cyril and Daisy...
(IIRC, the owner of the line died a year or two ago, so these films are unrepeatable)
I was though just thinking that a scented candle of that kind near the layout, coupled with a bit of DCC digital sound, might actually be interesting....
Budget multimedia experience 😁 I'm curious to know whether it really does smell of it. But not to the extent I'd buy it to find out.
I feel a related thread coming on...