In the past when it was not uncommon for wedding liturgies to be celebrated in church in France it was not at all unusual to see men standing outside the church smoking rather than actually going in to the church.
Not just France. Liverpool and Glasgow too from what I've heard.
In the past when it was not uncommon for wedding liturgies to be celebrated in church in France it was not at all unusual to see men standing outside the church smoking rather than actually going in to the church.
Not just France. Liverpool and Glasgow too from what I've heard.
The Greek Orthodox Church in Liverpool is close to the Anglican and Catholic Cathedrals, but is much older than either of them. It was (and possibly still is) in a very "rough" area of the city, and you need men outside during services to keep watch on the parked cars.
I think I've only heard one Orthodox sermon that's lasted more than the time it'd take to light and inhale a first drag let alone smoke an entire cigarette.
Not that I smoke, of course ...
We went to an orthodox wedding in Liverpool years ago.
I swear the only men in the church were the groom (a really dodgy geezer,) the officiating bishop and me. The others were outside smoking like chimneys.
I went to a wedding in the Greek Orthodox (?) cathedral in London (up near Mornington Crescent) circa 2018-19.
As the groom was Scottish there were a great many burly men in kilts present and part way through the proceedings I heard an odd noise behind me, looked, and the partner of one of them was on all fours between the pews - at which point she looked up at me and whispered loudly "It's not what it looks like!"
In the past when it was not uncommon for wedding liturgies to be celebrated in church in France it was not at all unusual to see men standing outside the church smoking rather than actually going in to the church.
Not just France. Liverpool and Glasgow too from what I've heard.
In the past when it was not uncommon for wedding liturgies to be celebrated in church in France it was not at all unusual to see men standing outside the church smoking rather than actually going in to the church.
Not just France. Liverpool and Glasgow too from what I've heard.
The Greek Orthodox Church in Liverpool is close to the Anglican and Catholic Cathedrals, but is much older than either of them. It was (and possibly still is) in a very "rough" area of the city, and you need men outside during services to keep watch on the parked cars.
Apologies for straying off topic, but the Greek church in Liverpool is right opposite the Anglican church where I worship. Yes, the area was in the heart of the Toxteth uprisings (some say 'riots') of 40 years ago, but things have changed. Even then the description 'rough area' was misleading; both churches are near an intersection of major traffic routes to/from the city centre. They are not hidden away in some dingy back street. We have never had cause to call on security patrols to protect parked cars or anything else.
There's a brief introduction in Swedish (the church used is in Sweden AFAIK, and the homily is in Swedish), but the Mass (in Latin, of course) begins at about 4 minutes in. Presumably, something very similar would have been seen in churches in England at that time - some 90 years before the first Prayer Book in English!
In the past when it was not uncommon for wedding liturgies to be celebrated in church in France it was not at all unusual to see men standing outside the church smoking rather than actually going in to the church.
Not just France. Liverpool and Glasgow too from what I've heard.
The Greek Orthodox Church in Liverpool is close to the Anglican and Catholic Cathedrals, but is much older than either of them. It was (and possibly still is) in a very "rough" area of the city, and you need men outside during services to keep watch on the parked cars.
Apologies for straying off topic, but the Greek church in Liverpool is right opposite the Anglican church where I worship. Yes, the area was in the heart of the Toxteth uprisings (some say 'riots') of 40 years ago, but things have changed. Even then the description 'rough area' was misleading; both churches are near an intersection of major traffic routes to/from the city centre. They are not hidden away in some dingy back street. We have never had cause to call on security patrols to protect parked cars or anything else.
What used to be the priest's house next to the Greek Orthodox Church in Liverpool has (or had) heavy steel bars on the outside of all the ground floor windows and a similar security gate outside the front door. The front of the church is in a side road, which when I visited occasionally a year or two after the "Toxteth riots" looked very neglected.
There's a brief introduction in Swedish (the church used is in Sweden AFAIK, and the homily is in Swedish), but the Mass (in Latin, of course) begins at about 4 minutes in. Presumably, something very similar would have been seen in churches in England at that time - some 90 years before the first Prayer Book in English!
That's interesting but I can't help thinking it's more like the Swedish equivalent of the Oxford Movement's fantasy of what a medieval service was like, rather than anything like the real thing.
I also can't believe that the congregation would have just stood in quiet devotion with their hands clasped for an hour. Separated from everything that was actually going on by a thick screen, they'd have wandered around, praying in side chapels or talking and gossiping with each other.
This wasn't, after all, something unusual for them. It was what happened every week.
O indeed - you may well be right, and it's quite likely that there would have been some moving about, lighting of candles, and so on.
TBH, I'm not quite sure why I linked to that video - after all, it's not exactly an historical Anglican service!
There are various videos showing reconstructions of the 1549 BCP *Masse*, but, of course, we have no way of knowing how accurate these are, apart from the words used.
When I see those reconstructions I find myself wondering about the balance between worship and "play acting" for the lack of a better term.
Hmm. Yes, ISWYM, but I think the reconstruction is OK as long as it's sanctioned (so to speak) by the denomination.
For example, I understand that a C of E priest can celebrate a 1549 BCP Communion (with the Bishop's permission) if it's part of a course of instruction for educational purposes.
... For example, I understand that a C of E priest can celebrate a 1549 BCP Communion (with the Bishop's permission) if it's part of a course of instruction for educational purposes.
I've long been a bit puzzled why so many ecclesianticists get so interested in a form of service that only existed for three years and never had the opportunity to bed down into any mode of general use. It is about as weird as some clique of future liturgicists setting up a society for the resuscitation of Series II.
... For example, I understand that a C of E priest can celebrate a 1549 BCP Communion (with the Bishop's permission) if it's part of a course of instruction for educational purposes.
I've long been a bit puzzled why so many ecclesianticists get so interested in a form of service that only existed for three years and never had the opportunity to bed down into any mode of general use. It is about as weird as some clique of future liturgicists setting up a society for the resuscitation of Series II.
Is it because 1549 was the first experience of vernacular, protestant* worship that English people brought up on the medieval mass would have encountered? Of course it could never have the same impact on 21st century people of whatever tradition, but it is often a useful exercise to try to see things as others saw them.
I have to admit to a slight nostalgia for Series 2. If it had been in contemporary English I think it would still serve us well and maybe have avoided all the confusing variety of options in Common Worship.
* a debatable term today perhaps, but it would have been seen as thus at the time.
The 1549 BCP may have lasted only a few years, but it is indeed important as @angloid says - the first complete *Masse* in English, but celebrated (AIUI) with a certain amount of the ritual, vestments etc. that folk were familiar with.
It must have made quite an impact on those parishes which used it, though that, of course, is hard to know at this late stage.
Am I right in thinking that perhaps its nearest relative still in use today is the 1970 Scottish Episcopal liturgy?
I never really experienced Series 2 - the Church of my Youth went from 1662 BCP to Series 3 (2 services a month - the Sunday 8am stayed BCP).
Comments
Not just France. Liverpool and Glasgow too from what I've heard.
The Greek Orthodox Church in Liverpool is close to the Anglican and Catholic Cathedrals, but is much older than either of them. It was (and possibly still is) in a very "rough" area of the city, and you need men outside during services to keep watch on the parked cars.
I went to a wedding in the Greek Orthodox (?) cathedral in London (up near Mornington Crescent) circa 2018-19.
As the groom was Scottish there were a great many burly men in kilts present and part way through the proceedings I heard an odd noise behind me, looked, and the partner of one of them was on all fours between the pews - at which point she looked up at me and whispered loudly "It's not what it looks like!"
I'm still not sure how I kept from hysterics.
Baptisms too.
Apologies for straying off topic, but the Greek church in Liverpool is right opposite the Anglican church where I worship. Yes, the area was in the heart of the Toxteth uprisings (some say 'riots') of 40 years ago, but things have changed. Even then the description 'rough area' was misleading; both churches are near an intersection of major traffic routes to/from the city centre. They are not hidden away in some dingy back street. We have never had cause to call on security patrols to protect parked cars or anything else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTSJ7LqZLYQ
There's a brief introduction in Swedish (the church used is in Sweden AFAIK, and the homily is in Swedish), but the Mass (in Latin, of course) begins at about 4 minutes in. Presumably, something very similar would have been seen in churches in England at that time - some 90 years before the first Prayer Book in English!
What used to be the priest's house next to the Greek Orthodox Church in Liverpool has (or had) heavy steel bars on the outside of all the ground floor windows and a similar security gate outside the front door. The front of the church is in a side road, which when I visited occasionally a year or two after the "Toxteth riots" looked very neglected.
I also can't believe that the congregation would have just stood in quiet devotion with their hands clasped for an hour. Separated from everything that was actually going on by a thick screen, they'd have wandered around, praying in side chapels or talking and gossiping with each other.
This wasn't, after all, something unusual for them. It was what happened every week.
TBH, I'm not quite sure why I linked to that video - after all, it's not exactly an historical Anglican service!
There are various videos showing reconstructions of the 1549 BCP *Masse*, but, of course, we have no way of knowing how accurate these are, apart from the words used.
Hmm. Yes, ISWYM, but I think the reconstruction is OK as long as it's sanctioned (so to speak) by the denomination.
For example, I understand that a C of E priest can celebrate a 1549 BCP Communion (with the Bishop's permission) if it's part of a course of instruction for educational purposes.
Is it because 1549 was the first experience of vernacular, protestant* worship that English people brought up on the medieval mass would have encountered? Of course it could never have the same impact on 21st century people of whatever tradition, but it is often a useful exercise to try to see things as others saw them.
I have to admit to a slight nostalgia for Series 2. If it had been in contemporary English I think it would still serve us well and maybe have avoided all the confusing variety of options in Common Worship.
* a debatable term today perhaps, but it would have been seen as thus at the time.
It must have made quite an impact on those parishes which used it, though that, of course, is hard to know at this late stage.
Am I right in thinking that perhaps its nearest relative still in use today is the 1970 Scottish Episcopal liturgy?
I never really experienced Series 2 - the Church of my Youth went from 1662 BCP to Series 3 (2 services a month - the Sunday 8am stayed BCP).