Maybe. I have a Learned Tome on *The Leader Project*, by Kevin Robertson, so I'll have a look at it tomorrow to see if the author has anything to say about the sound the engine made!
I also have book about the Irish *Turfburner* (Bulleid's swansong), and that locomotive (which worked reasonably well) was apparently dreaded by PW men because of its almost silent running...
Not sure to what extent it was an accurate copy of the prototype, though it certainly gives a good impression of the size and power of the original!
A full-size replica is unlikely - for one thing, they never actually solved the weight distribution problem caused by the off-centre boiler- and I doubt if the fireman's cab would meet today's Elf & Safe Tea requirements.
Re the sound made by 36001, in his book *The Leader Project*, Kevin Robertson says:
As with film footage, there is a lack of sound recordings of the engine, and it would be most interesting to know what sound the engine made. Presumably, because of its six cylinders, the blast would have given the impression of rapid acceleration. Did it behave audibly in a similar way to Mallet-type designs, where each bogie did eventually tend to get *in sync* with the other?
The loco cried out for oil firing IMO - but, at a time when coal was a national industry and British foreign exchange was fragile, that would have been rejected out of hand. (And, in any case, why have oil-fired steam power when straight diesel offers greater thermal efficiency?)
I think that the turf burner has some sort of mechanical stoking device, if only to break up the clods of peat. I think though that quite a lot came out of the chimney unburnt.
Oil firing might have worked, but it was far too late in the day, and, as you say, coal had to be used, for political and economic reasons.
Not sure about the Turfburner - it was reasonably successful, albeit far too late to have any future - but I have Ernie Shepherd's useful book on the subject, and will have a look at it later to see what he says about firing.
Augers were used to feed turf from the bunkers to the firebox, where two mechanical stokers were fitted.
The engine was intended to be the forerunner of a class of 58 (!) which would be oil-fired, but capable of burning peat in an emergency...
BTW, there is evidence that Bulleid, having just moved to Ireland, sought to buy the four uncompleted Leaders (36002-36005) for CIE. This conjures up the intriguing prospect of re-gauged Leaders hauling the Dublin-Cork expresses, and maybe trains on other CIE main lines, resplendent in the totally impractical silver livery, or, more likely, in the light green which replaced it.
It was a long train trip today, boarding at Aldershot, held up for half an hour to let a ship cross, a brief stop in Rome amongst other places, and finally arriving in Yonkers late in the evening.
It strikes me that, while I welcome the nationalisation of the railways, this in itself will not bring any benefits unless the whole complicated system of franchises, companies and maintenance contracts etc are reintegrated. Ownership of the train operating companies "per se" won't make much difference.
Which leads me to an interesting point about numbers.
The two LMS diesels followed LMS practice in numbering, hence they were 10000 and 10001. Similarly the Fell locomotive was 10100 and the NB type 1 was 10800.
So, why the SR diesels numbered 10201/2/3? Later on, of course the "Peaks" had to start at D1 (you can't very well have a loco numbered D0 although there are stations with a Platform 0) but other classes began as D200, D800, D1000 and so on until TOPS took over.
You lot are a bad influence. I have the remains of my childhood Hornby et al stuff in a box, and I'm seriously considering a tiny HO/OO layout just big enough to fit on a bookshelf and go on the wall.
Pity I never had a GER Buckjumper or I could model my most local line, the Thaxted & Elsenham Light Railway (I shall be very suspicious if anyone claims awareness without asking Uncle Google first!).
Which leads me to an interesting point about numbers.
The two LMS diesels followed LMS practice in numbering, hence they were 10000 and 10001. Similarly the Fell locomotive was 10100 and the NB type 1 was 10800.
I'm not sure that I agree with you there. Yes, at the end of 1947 those two numbers were vacant, but following LMS practice, that put them in the Lancashire and Yorkshire series. From 1934, the LMS decided that new engines should all have four figure numbers. Post 1923 engines that had originally been put in the Lancashire and Yorkshire series, like the Crabs and some of the 0-6-0 tanks were renumbered. Ex-Midland and LNWR engines whose LMS numbers got dislodged by that, had a '2' put in front of them. Any of those that were still around in 1948 got completed different BR numbers in the 58xxx series.
If 10000 and 10001 had just been treated as LMS numbers, they should have been renumbered 50000 and 50001. BR decided that all diesels would be numbered in the 10000 series and all electric locomotives in the 20000 series. The LNER W1 was renumbered 60700.
The LMS numbered its diesel shunters in the same series as it steam engines. It was BR that renumbered them in the series 12xxx, including in that series some that it carried on building. It then numbered its own design of shunters in the 13xxx series.
So, why the SR diesels numbered 10201/2/3? Later on, of course the "Peaks" had to start at D1 (you can't very well have a loco numbered D0 although there are stations with a Platform 0) but other classes began as D200, D800, D1000 and so on until TOPS took over.
I rather think the change to D numbers was because BR realised that there might not otherwise be enough numbers for all the diesels that they were building under the modernisation program. Eventually, when steam had gone, they drop the Ds, and then in due course went over to current system.
You lot are a bad influence. I have the remains of my childhood Hornby et al stuff in a box, and I'm seriously considering a tiny HO/OO layout just big enough to fit on a bookshelf and go on the wall.
Pity I never had a GER Buckjumper or I could model my most local line, the Thaxted & Elsenham Light Railway (I shall be very suspicious if anyone claims awareness without asking Uncle Google first!).
Ok, without Google - stations included Henham, Mill Lane, Sibleys for Chickney and Broxted, Thaxted.
An absurd amount of Thaxted station remains - building, water tower, Engine shed. As a visiting 15 yo in the 1990s (family friends live in Thaxted) I crawled all round it.
You lot are a bad influence. I have the remains of my childhood Hornby et al stuff in a box, and I'm seriously considering a tiny HO/OO layout just big enough to fit on a bookshelf and go on the wall.
Pity I never had a GER Buckjumper or I could model my most local line, the Thaxted & Elsenham Light Railway (I shall be very suspicious if anyone claims awareness without asking Uncle Google first!).
Hehe...A Certain Manufacturer (not Rapido this time) has an 00 scale J67 Buckjumper in the pipeline...just the thing for the Thaxted line, or for the Kelvedon & Tollesbury line, too.
You lot are a bad influence. I have the remains of my childhood Hornby et al stuff in a box, and I'm seriously considering a tiny HO/OO layout just big enough to fit on a bookshelf and go on the wall.
Pity I never had a GER Buckjumper or I could model my most local line, the Thaxted & Elsenham Light Railway (I shall be very suspicious if anyone claims awareness without asking Uncle Google first!).
Ok, without Google - stations included Henham, Mill Lane, Sibleys for Chickney and Broxted, Thaxted.
An absurd amount of Thaxted station remains - building, water tower, Engine shed. As a visiting 15 yo in the 1990s (family friends live in Thaxted) I crawled all round it.
Whale oil beef hooked! Small world.
The station building may have gone now, or may just be invisible from the road, but I think the engine shed has been extensively renovated recently. No details because I'm usually driving when I pass! Also the aircraft hangar frame has gone.
You missed Cutler's Green but otherwise I think that was the full set.
That Buckjumper is more than my weekly income at the mo....
I wasn't that familiar with the Eastern Region, and my knowledge of the Swedie is mainly of its remoter regions in North Norfolk, but didn't BR paint one of those in pre-1914 Great Eastern fully lined blue for duties as a station pilot at Liverpool Street?
I wasn't that familiar with the Eastern Region, and my knowledge of the Swedie is mainly of its remoter regions in North Norfolk, but didn't BR paint one of those in pre-1914 Great Eastern fully lined blue for duties as a station pilot at Liverpool Street?
If 10000 and 10001 had just been treated as LMS numbers, they should have been renumbered 50000 and 50001. BR decided that all diesels would be numbered in the 10000 series and all electric locomotives in the 20000 series. The LNER W1 was renumbered 60700.
You've missed my point which is why the Southern diesels didn't start at 10200 rather than 10201.
You lot are a bad influence. I have the remains of my childhood Hornby et al stuff in a box, and I'm seriously considering a tiny HO/OO layout just big enough to fit on a bookshelf and go on the wall.
Pity I never had a GER Buckjumper or I could model my most local line, the Thaxted & Elsenham Light Railway (I shall be very suspicious if anyone claims awareness without asking Uncle Google first!).
Ok, without Google - stations included Henham, Mill Lane, Sibleys for Chickney and Broxted, Thaxted.
An absurd amount of Thaxted station remains - building, water tower, Engine shed. As a visiting 15 yo in the 1990s (family friends live in Thaxted) I crawled all round it.
<snip>
That Buckjumper is more than my weekly income at the mo....
Alas! Most model railway Stuff seems to be very expensive these days.
Bargains can be found online, but (as always) caveat emptor.
If 10000 and 10001 had just been treated as LMS numbers, they should have been renumbered 50000 and 50001. BR decided that all diesels would be numbered in the 10000 series and all electric locomotives in the 20000 series. The LNER W1 was renumbered 60700.
You've missed my point which is why the Southern diesels didn't start at 10200 rather than 10201.
Southern innit? Not too good at counting, tendency to sprinkle letters in, probably didn’t notice themselves…
This is what happens when your empire doesn’t have enough freight - no one can count, you build tavern cars, and believe that chain drive with oil baths is a sensible proposition
If 10000 and 10001 had just been treated as LMS numbers, they should have been renumbered 50000 and 50001. BR decided that all diesels would be numbered in the 10000 series and all electric locomotives in the 20000 series. The LNER W1 was renumbered 60700.
You've missed my point which is why the Southern diesels didn't start at 10200 rather than 10201.
Southern innit? Not too good at counting, tendency to sprinkle letters in, probably didn’t notice themselves…
This is what happens when your empire doesn’t have enough freight - no one can count, you build tavern cars, and believe that chain drive with oil baths is a sensible proposition
But this was in BR days - I wonder what they'd have been in the SR numbering scheme?1CC1-1(D) seems a bit complex!
If 10000 and 10001 had just been treated as LMS numbers, they should have been renumbered 50000 and 50001. BR decided that all diesels would be numbered in the 10000 series and all electric locomotives in the 20000 series. The LNER W1 was renumbered 60700.
You've missed my point which is why the Southern diesels didn't start at 10200 rather than 10201.
Southern innit? Not too good at counting, tendency to sprinkle letters in, probably didn’t notice themselves…
This is what happens when your empire doesn’t have enough freight - no one can count, you build tavern cars, and believe that chain drive with oil baths is a sensible proposition
But this was in BR days - I wonder what they'd have been in the SR numbering scheme?1CC1-1(D) seems a bit complex!
I reckon (supported by reading Gerry Fiennes) that the Big Four died at some point in the early 1970s rather than 1947…
True enough - think of the rivalry between the former GWR and LMS in the Birmingham area, or between the GWR and SR people in the West Country.
The latter was Fiennes wasn’t it? Took a GC/LNER man to go to the West Country as chairman of BR(WR) and lay down the law when WR absorbed a lot of the SR routes.
He couldn’t do much about the withered arm, but claimed IIRC that it was down to him that Waterloo-Exeter Central stayed open at all and doubled for as much as it is.
Again IIRC his view was that if it was one route or the other you’d be mad not to keep Paddington-Plymouth BUT that it was better to try and keep the other one there in some form too.
You may well be right. I've read Fiennes a number of times (but not recently). One stupidity was that, well after nationalisation, the stopping patterns of "Southern" and Western" trains in the Bodmin area were different - no thought of rationalising them for the benefit of passengers!
Re numbers, and Bulleid made a bit of a cock-up when he tried the French style of numbering on his new Merchant Navy Pacifics. They should have been 2C1.1 etc., as the SNCF would have done it, but for some totally obscure reason the MNs came out as 21C1 etc.
Hence, I suppose, the BR numbering starting at 35001. which would naturally lead (!) to the Leaders being numbered 36001 - 36005, as indeed they were.
By the same token, the Q1s were correctly numbered French fashion as C1 etc., becoming 33001 and the rest in due course.
There was a French connection - OVB spent some time in France, and spoke French fluently (as did Mrs Bulleid). He may well have been familiar with the work of his great French contemporary, Andre Chapelon
It's definitely a Southern "thing" - the Raworth booster electrics were 20001/2/3 while the EM!s started at 26000, the EM2s at 27000, and the gas turbines at 18000/18100. Even the Tyneside electric locos (amazing things!) were 26500/1 and the NER express loco was (theoretically at least) 26600.
1CC1 followed by their numbers which would have been confusing and uncouth, 1CC11, 1CC12 and 1CC13.
They spent their later life working out of Euston on the West Coast Main Line.
Yes, you're probably right about the numbers.
BTW, I posted Utter Tosh about OVB adopting a French-style numbering scheme. His idiosyncratic system was based on the common European practice of referring to the number of axles, rather than wheels, but he substituted the letter C (for three coupled or driving axles) rather than using the number - a French Pacific being a 231, a Mountain a 241, and so on. Had he built a Mikado, it would probably have been numbered 1D1.1...
Could someone pass the brain bleach, please? I've been idly Googling to take my mind off Other Stuff ™ and I've discovered that you can actually buy a kit of Thaxted engine shed
AND I NEED TO FORGET I EVER HAD THE BLOODY IDEA UNTIL I HAVE AN INCOME AGAIN!!!
Agreed that prices are just silly these days, for a lot of Stuff, anyway. O! for the old Bilteezi sheets, which were beautifully printed, but required stiffening with bits of cornflake box, or whatever. Mind you, some can still be found from time to time online, but at prices which would make Mr Vacy Ash turn in his grave,,,
Comments
True - a gentle *chuff-chuff*, I expect.
I also have book about the Irish *Turfburner* (Bulleid's swansong), and that locomotive (which worked reasonably well) was apparently dreaded by PW men because of its almost silent running...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGcyhlt8E5I
Not sure to what extent it was an accurate copy of the prototype, though it certainly gives a good impression of the size and power of the original!
A full-size replica is unlikely - for one thing, they never actually solved the weight distribution problem caused by the off-centre boiler- and I doubt if the fireman's cab would meet today's Elf & Safe Tea requirements.
Re the sound made by 36001, in his book *The Leader Project*, Kevin Robertson says:
As with film footage, there is a lack of sound recordings of the engine, and it would be most interesting to know what sound the engine made. Presumably, because of its six cylinders, the blast would have given the impression of rapid acceleration. Did it behave audibly in a similar way to Mallet-type designs, where each bogie did eventually tend to get *in sync* with the other?
For the sake of the reading non-railway-cognoscenti, I think this boils down to ‘how many volunteer firemen would you like to kill?’
Maybe, but I think it was found that the fireman's cab was not that much hotter than the cab of a Bulleid Pacific...
The centre-cab arrangement of the Irish version (the Turfburner) was much more conducive to continued good health.
Yes, of course - there was only one door...
I think that the turf burner has some sort of mechanical stoking device, if only to break up the clods of peat. I think though that quite a lot came out of the chimney unburnt.
Not sure about the Turfburner - it was reasonably successful, albeit far too late to have any future - but I have Ernie Shepherd's useful book on the subject, and will have a look at it later to see what he says about firing.
Augers were used to feed turf from the bunkers to the firebox, where two mechanical stokers were fitted.
The engine was intended to be the forerunner of a class of 58 (!) which would be oil-fired, but capable of burning peat in an emergency...
BTW, there is evidence that Bulleid, having just moved to Ireland, sought to buy the four uncompleted Leaders (36002-36005) for CIE. This conjures up the intriguing prospect of re-gauged Leaders hauling the Dublin-Cork expresses, and maybe trains on other CIE main lines, resplendent in the totally impractical silver livery, or, more likely, in the light green which replaced it.
Well caught, Sir!
Link.
Any thoughts?
Well, there never was a Class 36 so in theory it already has one!
The two LMS diesels followed LMS practice in numbering, hence they were 10000 and 10001. Similarly the Fell locomotive was 10100 and the NB type 1 was 10800.
So, why the SR diesels numbered 10201/2/3? Later on, of course the "Peaks" had to start at D1 (you can't very well have a loco numbered D0 although there are stations with a Platform 0) but other classes began as D200, D800, D1000 and so on until TOPS took over.
Pity I never had a GER Buckjumper or I could model my most local line, the Thaxted & Elsenham Light Railway (I shall be very suspicious if anyone claims awareness without asking Uncle Google first!).
If 10000 and 10001 had just been treated as LMS numbers, they should have been renumbered 50000 and 50001. BR decided that all diesels would be numbered in the 10000 series and all electric locomotives in the 20000 series. The LNER W1 was renumbered 60700.
The LMS numbered its diesel shunters in the same series as it steam engines. It was BR that renumbered them in the series 12xxx, including in that series some that it carried on building. It then numbered its own design of shunters in the 13xxx series. I rather think the change to D numbers was because BR realised that there might not otherwise be enough numbers for all the diesels that they were building under the modernisation program. Eventually, when steam had gone, they drop the Ds, and then in due course went over to current system.
Ok, without Google - stations included Henham, Mill Lane, Sibleys for Chickney and Broxted, Thaxted.
An absurd amount of Thaxted station remains - building, water tower, Engine shed. As a visiting 15 yo in the 1990s (family friends live in Thaxted) I crawled all round it.
Hehe...A Certain Manufacturer (not Rapido this time) has an 00 scale J67 Buckjumper in the pipeline...just the thing for the Thaxted line, or for the Kelvedon & Tollesbury line, too.
Whale oil beef hooked! Small world.
The station building may have gone now, or may just be invisible from the road, but I think the engine shed has been extensively renovated recently. No details because I'm usually driving when I pass! Also the aircraft hangar frame has gone.
You missed Cutler's Green but otherwise I think that was the full set.
That Buckjumper is more than my weekly income at the mo....
Yes
Alas! Most model railway Stuff seems to be very expensive these days.
Bargains can be found online, but (as always) caveat emptor.
Southern innit? Not too good at counting, tendency to sprinkle letters in, probably didn’t notice themselves…
This is what happens when your empire doesn’t have enough freight - no one can count, you build tavern cars, and believe that chain drive with oil baths is a sensible proposition
Exactly.
I reckon (supported by reading Gerry Fiennes) that the Big Four died at some point in the early 1970s rather than 1947…
The latter was Fiennes wasn’t it? Took a GC/LNER man to go to the West Country as chairman of BR(WR) and lay down the law when WR absorbed a lot of the SR routes.
He couldn’t do much about the withered arm, but claimed IIRC that it was down to him that Waterloo-Exeter Central stayed open at all and doubled for as much as it is.
Again IIRC his view was that if it was one route or the other you’d be mad not to keep Paddington-Plymouth BUT that it was better to try and keep the other one there in some form too.
Hence, I suppose, the BR numbering starting at 35001. which would naturally lead (!) to the Leaders being numbered 36001 - 36005, as indeed they were.
By the same token, the Q1s were correctly numbered French fashion as C1 etc., becoming 33001 and the rest in due course.
There was a French connection - OVB spent some time in France, and spoke French fluently (as did Mrs Bulleid). He may well have been familiar with the work of his great French contemporary, Andre Chapelon
It's definitely a Southern "thing" - the Raworth booster electrics were 20001/2/3 while the EM!s started at 26000, the EM2s at 27000, and the gas turbines at 18000/18100. Even the Tyneside electric locos (amazing things!) were 26500/1 and the NER express loco was (theoretically at least) 26600.
The first two Raworth electrics were numbered French-fashion CC1 and CC2, and the famous Irish Turfburner was also CC1...20003 appeared in BR days.
IIRC, Bulleid's big mainline diesels (10201-10203) also appeared post-nationalisation. I wonder what numbers OVB would have given them?
They spent their later life working out of Euston on the West Coast Main Line.
Yes, you're probably right about the numbers.
BTW, I posted Utter Tosh about OVB adopting a French-style numbering scheme. His idiosyncratic system was based on the common European practice of referring to the number of axles, rather than wheels, but he substituted the letter C (for three coupled or driving axles) rather than using the number - a French Pacific being a 231, a Mountain a 241, and so on. Had he built a Mikado, it would probably have been numbered 1D1.1...
AND I NEED TO FORGET I EVER HAD THE BLOODY IDEA UNTIL I HAVE AN INCOME AGAIN!!!
Sorry, don't know what came over me there.
Agreed that prices are just silly these days, for a lot of Stuff, anyway. O! for the old Bilteezi sheets, which were beautifully printed, but required stiffening with bits of cornflake box, or whatever. Mind you, some can still be found from time to time online, but at prices which would make Mr Vacy Ash turn in his grave,,,