Sunday Slobs -- c'mon man

The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
Look, I get it. You don't want to be there. Your wife is dragging you to church some Sundays (Lord knows you can't string three 'present' Sundays in a row) because the two of you have a few kids, and at some point you agreed they c/should be raised in the Church. Problem is, your wife is committed, and you now find yourself three years into a 20-year program, and you're decidedly not a fan. So you're doing The Things your fraternity does: only accompanying your family one or two Sundays a month; dropping them at the door and only managing to get yourself inside the building sometime during the readings; taking a bathroom break during communion; standing slowly, and in noticeably detached apathy during hymns and responses with arms folded or dug into your pockets... and then there are the pockets. Today your pockets are in a pair of slightly torn khaki cargo shorts you bought sometime during the Obama Administration. You have to wear them below your hips to accommodate your belly, which means your shirt doesn't always stay tucked in all the way around. There's no belt, and so I sit and ponder the physics the button of your shorts is well and truly defying to remain in place against what must be significant force. Your shirt, a hard-worn knit polo in some shade of pink between mauve and peach. And what choice of footwear did you make today? Ah yes, the "good" flip-flops -- of course. Who'd have thought the Tevas with white socks from a couple of weeks ago would be preferable. Your family is dressed well, including your three year-old son who's in a button-down oxford dress shirt with a little v-neck sweater vest. He's in blue jeans, but they're clean, fit him well, and break just above his little brown dress shoes. Your daughters and wife are all in dresses -- and your daughters' dresses match. Why you persist with your slovenly appearance is beyond me. Get it together, man. Grow up. And if you can't do that, at least dress decently. Crikey.
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Comments

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    My dad was presbymethengationalist, of the presby strain, and I think he was raised in an environment that emphasized dressing up for church. By contrast, the Catholic churches we attended at my mother's behest were much more slapdash about sartorial appearance.

    So, it's quite likely my dad was often overdressed relative to the rest of the parishioners at an average Sunday mass. But he was probably also one of the least reverent people there, often tried to get to the golf course instead, and on one memorable occasion, took a napkin with a Peanuts cartoon out of his pocket and jocularly showed it to me during the Transubstantiation.
  • And at the risk of getting primitivism
    branded as the last refuge of the tatterdemalion...

    Can we really imagine Jesus disembarking from his donkey on Palm Sunday and thinking "WTF, look at how some of these jerks are dressed!"
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Why you persist with your slovenly appearance is beyond me.

    You identified it right at the start of your post. He doesn't want to be there. He'd rather be doing any number of other things on a weekend morning. Drinking coffee, eating cinnamon rolls, drinking beer, watching football, mowing the lawn, washing the car, sleeping in, whatever - things that he either enjoys or that have utility in his life. He is instead having to waste his time again and again, even if it isn't every week. He doesn't want to be there, and he's bored out of his skull. His mistake isn't how he dresses; it's the dishonesty he began when he agreed to raise the kids in the church and continues to this day by attending at all.
  • Being a person with a wicked sense of humor, if we had such a person, I’d take it upon myself to greet him every week as my best friend—warmly, as if seeing him just made my whole morning. Part of it’s just my general desire to fuck with people’s minds, but part is having done this before and seen a huge turnaround in the person’s life and happiness. They don’t know why the hell you’re so happy to see them, but it’s hard to stay glum and rude in the face of that kind of welcome, and, well, we tend to end up good friends ten years later. Though i never dare confess why i started it…
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Would the man dress like that for other social occasions? Could he turn up like that at the golf club? Would he accepted the into a restaurant dressed like that. I don’t dress formally for church but I do wear clothes that are in a decent state that fit me. Why should someone going to church (if they like it or not) dress in a way they wouldn’t for other social occasions?
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Would the man dress like that for other social occasions? Could he turn up like that at the golf club? Would he accepted the into a restaurant dressed like that. I don’t dress formally for church but I do wear clothes that are in a decent state that fit me. Why should someone going to church (if they like it or not) dress in a way they wouldn’t for other social occasions?

    Because, as @Ruth has pointed out, he doesn’t want to be there.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Being a person with a wicked sense of humor, if we had such a person, I’d take it upon myself to greet him every week as my best friend—warmly, as if seeing him just made my whole morning. Part of it’s just my general desire to fuck with people’s minds, but part is having done this before and seen a huge turnaround in the person’s life and happiness. They don’t know why the hell you’re so happy to see them, but it’s hard to stay glum and rude in the face of that kind of welcome, and, well, we tend to end up good friends ten years later. Though i never dare confess why i started it…

    Of course, you could always welcome him genuinely without taking the piss.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Would the man dress like that for other social occasions? Could he turn up like that at the golf club? Would he accepted the into a restaurant dressed like that. I don’t dress formally for church but I do wear clothes that are in a decent state that fit me. Why should someone going to church (if they like it or not) dress in a way they wouldn’t for other social occasions?

    Because, as @Ruth has pointed out, he doesn’t want to be there.

    Not an excuse. There are plenty of places people don’t want to be but they still have to dress in clothes that fit and are in a good state. There are plenty of places I have been where I don’t want be and have to wear something prescribed. Wearing cloths that fit and are in a decent state is ground zero for wearing clothes. Not doing so doesn’t come across as protest but as either not being able to afford decent clothes, which happens but we know not from this description, or looking like you have no self care.
    Shorts and a t-shirt are fine to wear as far as I’m concerned.
  • Mrs RR, always a careful dresser, says that lots, if not most, people dress slobbily these days, all the time. 'As if', she observes, 'they are out to do more than a spot of gardening'. They just don't get it. Apparently it's the style these days. At a recent wedding celebration we were at not a few folk were apparelled thusly.
    One of Our Lord's parables springs to mind .....
  • One of the less comprehensible parables…
  • RockyRoger wrote: »
    Mrs RR, always a careful dresser, says that lots, if not most, people dress slobbily these days, all the time. 'As if', she observes, 'they are out to do more than a spot of gardening'. They just don't get it. Apparently it's the style these days. At a recent wedding celebration we were at not a few folk were apparelled thusly.
    One of Our Lord's parables springs to mind .....

    What's the parable?
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    Hugal wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Would the man dress like that for other social occasions? Could he turn up like that at the golf club? Would he accepted the into a restaurant dressed like that. I don’t dress formally for church but I do wear clothes that are in a decent state that fit me. Why should someone going to church (if they like it or not) dress in a way they wouldn’t for other social occasions?

    Because, as @Ruth has pointed out, he doesn’t want to be there.

    Not an excuse. There are plenty of places people don’t want to be but they still have to dress in clothes that fit and are in a good state. There are plenty of places I have been where I don’t want be and have to wear something prescribed. Wearing cloths that fit and are in a decent state is ground zero for wearing clothes. Not doing so doesn’t come across as protest but as either not being able to afford decent clothes, which happens but we know not from this description, or looking like you have no self care.
    Shorts and a t-shirt are fine to wear as far as I’m concerned.

    I personally think that within reasonable grounds of decency what other people choose to wear to church is no-one else's business.

    We're haemorrhaging numbers quite fast enough without getting up our own arses about clothing. Why do you even care? Why does anyone need an excuse not to meet up to the standards you impose on them without their asking you to?

    So much grief and friction is caused by us making other peoples' business our own in this world.
  • stetson wrote: »
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    Mrs RR, always a careful dresser, says that lots, if not most, people dress slobbily these days, all the time. 'As if', she observes, 'they are out to do more than a spot of gardening'. They just don't get it. Apparently it's the style these days. At a recent wedding celebration we were at not a few folk were apparelled thusly.
    One of Our Lord's parables springs to mind .....

    What's the parable? [/quote
    Matt 22:1-10

  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Would the man dress like that for other social occasions? Could he turn up like that at the golf club? Would he accepted the into a restaurant dressed like that. I don’t dress formally for church but I do wear clothes that are in a decent state that fit me. Why should someone going to church (if they like it or not) dress in a way they wouldn’t for other social occasions?

    Because, as @Ruth has pointed out, he doesn’t want to be there.

    Not an excuse. There are plenty of places people don’t want to be but they still have to dress in clothes that fit and are in a good state. There are plenty of places I have been where I don’t want be and have to wear something prescribed. Wearing cloths that fit and are in a decent state is ground zero for wearing clothes. Not doing so doesn’t come across as protest but as either not being able to afford decent clothes, which happens but we know not from this description, or looking like you have no self care.
    Shorts and a t-shirt are fine to wear as far as I’m concerned.

    I personally think that within reasonable grounds of decency what other people choose to wear to church is no-one else's business.

    We're haemorrhaging numbers quite fast enough without getting up our own arses about clothing. Why do you even care? Why does anyone need an excuse not to meet up to the standards you impose on them without their asking you to?

    So much grief and friction is caused by us making other peoples' business our own in this world.
    .

    For once: quite so.

  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    With apologies for the attack of heavenly Christmas spirit, if this bloke doesn't like church, doesn't want to be there and would rather be in bed/watching telly/whatever, I think it's really rather nice of him to have come along with his family since they want to be there. Maybe faith will touch his heart - maybe it won't. But surely on balance it's a good thing that he's there even if he is a total bored scruff?
  • HelenEva wrote: »
    But surely on balance it's a good thing that he's there even if he is a total bored scruff?

    Exactly what I was about to say.
  • @The_Riv Never mind is he dressed suitably for church, is he dressed decently and suitably for being in public with his wife and children? Its not about looking like a fashion plate, but an adult should always be in clothes that are clean, tidy, fit properly and are appropriate to the occasion.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    @The_Riv Never mind is he dressed suitably for church, is he dressed decently and suitably for being in public with his wife and children? Its not about looking like a fashion plate, but an adult should always be in clothes that are clean, tidy, fit properly and are appropriate to the occasion.

    Why? Who gets to decide on "appropriate"? How well fitted is "properly"?

    Isn't life hard enough without all these additional rules to negotiate?
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    We obviously have come across a divided. I won’t force anyone to wear anything, you should see some of my stuff. I think my point is why should church be treated differently to any other social setting. If someone would wear that to a restaurant or a pub say, OK, but people generally don’t. I wouldn’t blink an eye if this guy turned up to my church but if he is dressing like that as some kind of protest to being there then he is being childish. If he dresses like that all the time then ok. But I ask again why should church be less important than any other social occasion?
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Sorry to double post.
    If someone came to my church in full drag I wouldn’t bother. It is the difference in attitude that I am aiming for.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    There's a wider question there of why there are sartorial expectations at social events. I've never quite understood them.

    Thinking about why I'd not default to ultra-scruffy (or, as I prefer to call it, comfortable) at a restaurant (as opposed to a pub where I actually do tend to) the question in my mind is does it bother the rest of his family?

    It's really worth asking *why* we think it matters what someone is wearing. And not try to get inside other people's heads; my reasons for wearing particular things at particular events may not be the same as yours. Your equating of appearance with event importance for example may not be universally shared.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    But I ask again why should church be less important than any other social occasion?

    For some of us, importance of social occasion is not expressed in clothing. I - autistic, scruffy - generally look much the same on all occasions as I've found some clothes I can bear to wear and stick with them. This guy may be being a scruff purely to wind up church people - in which case poo to him and also poo to us for falling for it. Or he may be wearing what he feels comfortable in, in which case I'm sure he's welcome just as he is.
  • I agree with @Hugal on this one.

    For the same reason that I don't like seeing people in supermarkets dressed in their pyjamas or one-sies.

    Not that I am an exemplar of sartorial elegance. Plus, it's by their fruits not by their suits.

    Our parish is pretty multicultural and many people turn up wearing what they can afford. Not very much in the case of recent migrants. No-one turns a hair.

    But I agree with Hugal that if it is within our means we shouldn't go around wearing anything that draws attention to ourselves whether in an over-dressed and ostentatious way or in a 'dressed-down' or deliberately 'slumming it' way.

    I used to wear a suit and tie or jacket and tie for work and when I was involved with my local and regional council. I only wear a suit for weddings and funerals these days. I wear a decent jacket and trousers when I run my poetry group, because I think that sends a message that I'm taking it seriously.

    I don't wear what I slob around the house in to church, but neither do I go dressed up to the nines and flaunting my relative affluence to those who can only afford sports gear and cheap trainers.

    In my experience it's generally middle-class and affluent people who 'dress down'.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    Again "we shoud...", "we shouldn't..."

    Why? Why not?

    The message I'd get in your poetry group, if I noticed what you were wearing at all, would be 'this guy likes wearing a jacket and trousers". It wouldn't occur to me to conclude anything about your attitude to the event.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Hugal wrote: »
    Sorry to double post.
    If someone came to my church in full drag I wouldn’t bother. It is the difference in attitude that I am aiming for.
    I didn’t know you were Anglo-Catholic 😜
  • stetson wrote: »
    And at the risk of getting primitivism
    branded as the last refuge of the tatterdemalion...

    Can we really imagine Jesus disembarking from his donkey on Palm Sunday and thinking "WTF, look at how some of these jerks are dressed!"

    I doubt that Jesus would think WTF at any time.

    I think that adults should make an effort. On the other hand my 7 year old grandson occasionally turns up dressed as a super hero.
  • Telford wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    And at the risk of getting primitivism
    branded as the last refuge of the tatterdemalion...

    Can we really imagine Jesus disembarking from his donkey on Palm Sunday and thinking "WTF, look at how some of these jerks are dressed!"

    I doubt that Jesus would think WTF at any time.

    I think that adults should make an effort. On the other hand my 7 year old grandson occasionally turns up dressed as a super hero.

    Why should they "make an effort?"

    Where does this "should" come from?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    I dress the same pretty much all the time - trousers, t-shirt, jumper unless it's hot, hiking boot. Three things will get me in a suit: wedding, funeral, job interview.
  • stetson wrote: »
    And at the risk of getting primitivism
    branded as the last refuge of the tatterdemalion...

    Can we really imagine Jesus disembarking from his donkey on Palm Sunday and thinking "WTF, look at how some of these jerks are dressed!"

    I've learned to avoid imagining what Jesus may have said about ___. He said plenty of stuff we're not holding to as it is, so the stuff he didn't say couldn't matter less.

    It's my inference that he doesn't want to be there. He's making choices about how he appears and engages. I have the same reaction as I might to a piece of art I can't appreciate, or a song that's grating on the ears. I find this guy's aesthetics and behaviors off-putting. That, and the obvious strain between his wife and him. It's tragic and aggravating.
  • Telford wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    And at the risk of getting primitivism
    branded as the last refuge of the tatterdemalion...

    Can we really imagine Jesus disembarking from his donkey on Palm Sunday and thinking "WTF, look at how some of these jerks are dressed!"

    I doubt that Jesus would think WTF at any time.

    I think that adults should make an effort. On the other hand my 7 year old grandson occasionally turns up dressed as a super hero.

    I'm pretty sure whatever else there may be in the church dress code, turning up dressed as a super hero when aged 7 is keenly encouraged. Or a dinosaur. Dinosaurs are always good.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Mr Boogs has one tie, it's black - for funerals.

    If any other occasion requires 'dressing up' he's not going. Simple really.

    I love to 'dress up' occasionally but don't mind what he wears so long as it's clean and decent.
  • When I attended services, I dressed the same as I did work, dress pants, dress shirt, sports coat and dress shoes. I abandoned ties at least a decade ago.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited December 2024
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    And at the risk of getting primitivism
    branded as the last refuge of the tatterdemalion...

    Can we really imagine Jesus disembarking from his donkey on Palm Sunday and thinking "WTF, look at how some of these jerks are dressed!"

    I doubt that Jesus would think WTF at any time.

    I think that adults should make an effort. On the other hand my 7 year old grandson occasionally turns up dressed as a super hero.

    Why should they "make an effort?"

    Where does this "should" come from?

    Basically because clothing is a form of social communication - complicated by changing social norms.

    Re “dressing up” - this communicates you think the occasion or setting is special: either in terms of joyous, or possibly in need of a demonstration of deference or respect.

    What constitutes dressing up will depend on the social group and the setting. People dressing up for the Rocky Horror Picture Show are also doing so for a special celebration - but not in the way they typically would for a wedding, a court date or in church.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    It's my inference that he doesn't want to be there. He's making choices about how he appears and engages. I have the same reaction as I might to a piece of art I can't appreciate, or a song that's grating on the ears. I find this guy's aesthetics and behaviors off-putting. That, and the obvious strain between his wife and him. It's tragic and aggravating.
    He's not there to decorate your life. He's not there for your benefit in any way. And his relationship with his wife is none of your damned business.

    The judgement from you and the bullshit fakery from @Lamb Chopped are what a lot of people think they're going to get from church-goers, and I guess they're not wrong.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    People dressing up for the Rocky Horror Picture Show are also doing so for a special celebration - but not in the way they typically would for a wedding, a court date or in church.

    Now that’s something I’d love to see
  • Which is no different than your caustic judgment toward me, @Ruth. S'fine.

    For the record, I'm a church worker, not a member, not a goer, not even able to be doctrinally described as belonging there. This guy is a purposeful slob. I'm not hating the sinner, I'm hating his juvenile, transparent, passive-aggressive laziness, and his obvious, intentional silent tantrum. And I don't mind casting the first stone. I'd probably choose to be with this guy on some cheap public golf course on any given Sunday morning than working through three or four (if I sub for my assistant) liturgies. But I'm not. And he's not. And he could and should do better, if for no other reason, his own domestic tranquility, the lack of which is also fairly obvious on Sunday mornings.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    I'm amazed that just by looking at someone you can deduce their motivations thought processes and causes of domestic friction.

    That's exactly the presumption that I think is the problem here.

    @Doublethink 's social communication idea only works if wearer and see-er speak the same clothing language. I don't think that's necessary the case - as evidenced by what @Gamma Gamaliel and I said about his poetry group.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    That’s what I mean about changing social norms - clothing languages used to be less ambiguous.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Would the man dress like that for other social occasions? Could he turn up like that at the golf club? Would he accepted the into a restaurant dressed like that. I don’t dress formally for church but I do wear clothes that are in a decent state that fit me. Why should someone going to church (if they like it or not) dress in a way they wouldn’t for other social occasions?

    Because, as @Ruth has pointed out, he doesn’t want to be there.

    Not an excuse. There are plenty of places people don’t want to be but they still have to dress in clothes that fit and are in a good state. There are plenty of places I have been where I don’t want be and have to wear something prescribed. Wearing cloths that fit and are in a decent state is ground zero for wearing clothes. Not doing so doesn’t come across as protest but as either not being able to afford decent clothes, which happens but we know not from this description, or looking like you have no self care.
    Shorts and a t-shirt are fine to wear as far as I’m concerned.

    I personally think that within reasonable grounds of decency what other people choose to wear to church is no-one else's business.
    This!
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    And at the risk of getting primitivism
    branded as the last refuge of the tatterdemalion...

    Can we really imagine Jesus disembarking from his donkey on Palm Sunday and thinking "WTF, look at how some of these jerks are dressed!"

    I doubt that Jesus would think WTF at any time.

    I think that adults should make an effort. On the other hand my 7 year old grandson occasionally turns up dressed as a super hero.

    Why should they "make an effort?"
    Or to frame the question slightly differently, who am I to assess whether someone else has “made an effort”?


  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Would the man dress like that for other social occasions? Could he turn up like that at the golf club? Would he accepted the into a restaurant dressed like that. I don’t dress formally for church but I do wear clothes that are in a decent state that fit me. Why should someone going to church (if they like it or not) dress in a way they wouldn’t for other social occasions?

    Because, as @Ruth has pointed out, he doesn’t want to be there.

    Not an excuse. There are plenty of places people don’t want to be but they still have to dress in clothes that fit and are in a good state. There are plenty of places I have been where I don’t want be and have to wear something prescribed. Wearing cloths that fit and are in a decent state is ground zero for wearing clothes. Not doing so doesn’t come across as protest but as either not being able to afford decent clothes, which happens but we know not from this description, or looking like you have no self care.
    Shorts and a t-shirt are fine to wear as far as I’m concerned.

    I personally think that within reasonable grounds of decency what other people choose to wear to church is no-one else's business.
    This!
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    And at the risk of getting primitivism
    branded as the last refuge of the tatterdemalion...

    Can we really imagine Jesus disembarking from his donkey on Palm Sunday and thinking "WTF, look at how some of these jerks are dressed!"

    I doubt that Jesus would think WTF at any time.

    I think that adults should make an effort. On the other hand my 7 year old grandson occasionally turns up dressed as a super hero.

    Why should they "make an effort?"
    Or to frame the question slightly differently, who am I to assess whether someone else has “made an effort”?


    There is that as well.

    It's evidently possible that this guy works in some customer facing job where he has to look a particular way in particular clothes. He may appreciate that church is a place where he can relax that and not be fired/shouted at/treated like shite.

    But the presenting issue is, I think, that people have a habit of judging actions by "what it would mean or imply if I did that". That's a reasonable starting point, but it can only provide a tentative conclusion because we are not all the same.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Or to frame the question slightly differently, who am I to assess whether someone else has “made an effort”?

    You are a person who has, I would bet, made an effort on at least some occasions.

    KarlLB wrote: »
    I'm amazed that just by looking at someone you can deduce their motivations thought processes and causes of domestic friction.

    That's exactly the presumption that I think is the problem here.

    @Doublethink 's social communication idea only works if wearer and see-er speak the same clothing language. I don't think that's necessary the case - as evidenced by what @Gamma Gamaliel and I said about his poetry group.

    One can learn a lot by observation. I've already said I've made an inference. Happy to expand that to include a number of inferences. Does its help if I say my long-acquired guess is that his wife is unhappy about his choices and behaviors? Probably not.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Or to frame the question slightly differently, who am I to assess whether someone else has “made an effort”?

    You are a person who has, I would bet, made an effort on at least some occasions.

    KarlLB wrote: »
    I'm amazed that just by looking at someone you can deduce their motivations thought processes and causes of domestic friction.

    That's exactly the presumption that I think is the problem here.

    @Doublethink 's social communication idea only works if wearer and see-er speak the same clothing language. I don't think that's necessary the case - as evidenced by what @Gamma Gamaliel and I said about his poetry group.

    One can learn a lot by observation. I've already said I've made an inference. Happy to expand that to include a number of inferences. Does its help if I say my long-acquired guess is that his wife is unhappy about his choices and behaviors? Probably not.

    Well, it helps that you admit it's just a guess. Guesses can be wrong. As can inferences, hunches and everything else where there's not a logical imperative to a conclusion.
  • The_Riv wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Or to frame the question slightly differently, who am I to assess whether someone else has “made an effort”?

    You are a person who has, I would bet, made an effort on at least some occasions.
    I have indeed. But unless we’re going to agree that “making an effort” is really just idiom for “dressing the way society or the church or our grandparents or whoever expect us to dress for this occasion,” it may have been more of an effort for someone else to get out of bed and put on whatever they could find that morning than it was for me to put on nice clothes. Why should I think I made more of an effort than they did?

    What is it the Orthodox say? “Keep your eyes on your own plate”?


  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    And at the risk of getting primitivism
    branded as the last refuge of the tatterdemalion...

    Can we really imagine Jesus disembarking from his donkey on Palm Sunday and thinking "WTF, look at how some of these jerks are dressed!"

    I doubt that Jesus would think WTF at any time.

    I think that adults should make an effort. On the other hand my 7 year old grandson occasionally turns up dressed as a super hero.

    Why should they "make an effort?"
    Because they should in my opinion
    Where does this "should" come from?
    English dictionaries
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    But I agree with Hugal that if it is within our means we shouldn't go around wearing anything that draws attention to ourselves whether in an over-dressed and ostentatious way or in a 'dressed-down' or deliberately 'slumming it' way.

    I think you've hit the bulls-eye here. The criterion is not dressing up/dressing down, but dressing close enough to the sartorial standards set for that occasion so as not to make yourself into an attention-pimp.
  • Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    And at the risk of getting primitivism
    branded as the last refuge of the tatterdemalion...

    Can we really imagine Jesus disembarking from his donkey on Palm Sunday and thinking "WTF, look at how some of these jerks are dressed!"

    I doubt that Jesus would think WTF at any time.

    I think that adults should make an effort. On the other hand my 7 year old grandson occasionally turns up dressed as a super hero.

    Why should they "make an effort?"
    Because they should in my opinion
    Where does this "should" come from?
    English dictionaries

    What is your opinion based on? Surely you have something that informs it.

    I'll treat your answer to the second question with the contempt it deserves.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    stetson wrote: »
    But I agree with Hugal that if it is within our means we shouldn't go around wearing anything that draws attention to ourselves whether in an over-dressed and ostentatious way or in a 'dressed-down' or deliberately 'slumming it' way.

    I think you've hit the bulls-eye here. The criterion is not dressing up/dressing down, but dressing close enough to the sartorial standards set for that occasion so as not to make yourself into an attention-pimp.

    There's still a lot of cultural assumption here, and people who have tried to dress to a sartorial standard can get it wrong. It's weird how big a deal this seems to be. I've mentioned I'm autistic and in the workplace people are generally happy to make reasonable adjustments for me in many ways, but they still get itsy if I need to look (slightly) scruffier than they do for disability reasons. It's an odd hill that humanity seems determined to die on (whilst perfectly dressed for the occasion).
  • I don't know what they say, @Nick Tamen. What I'm saying here is that this guy's wardrobe is a mess compared to his family's, and that his attitude comes across pretty poorly, which I've inferred to be his intention. Maybe I'm wrong.

    I figured there'd be a certain amount of backlash here. I was right about that, anyway.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Or to frame the question slightly differently, who am I to assess whether someone else has “made an effort”?

    You are a person who has, I would bet, made an effort on at least some occasions.
    I have indeed. But unless we’re going to agree that “making an effort” is really just idiom for “dressing the way society or the church or our grandparents or whoever expect us to dress for this occasion,” it may have been more of an effort for someone else to get out of bed and put on whatever they could find that morning than it was for me to put on nice clothes. Why should I think I made more of an effort than they did?

    What is it the Orthodox say? “Keep your eyes on your own plate”?
    I know some people who habitually "dress well" (ie: their everyday practice is to where a suit, often with a tie, rather than jeans and T) and dressing that way for church would be no effort at all. But, if you only saw them at church you might conclude that they had "made an effort" - whereas coming in jeans and T shirt would, for them, be an effort as that's not something they have in their wardrobe and they would be feeling very uncomfortable so attired.

    Personally, as long as I'm not having to specifically wash and iron something that would otherwise sit in the laundry basket until I have a load to put on*, I don't find it any extra effort to wear something different. The effort it takes to put on a pair of jeans or a pair of trousers is the same, it takes no longer to tie up the laces on a pair of trainers than a pair of leather shoes, I almost always wear a shirt rather than T-shirt and adding a tie is no effort. When I come into church in black shoes, trousers and a shirt and tie am I actually making an effort compared to if I wore jeans, trainers and a shirt without a tie? It doesn't seem so to me. Though, when I'm preaching I do wear a suit which involves all the effort of putting on a jacket as well, yeah that really causes me to break out in a sweat. When it doesn't involve doing anything more than other options, what exactly does "make an effort" mean?

    * I'd accept that if I was buying clothing only to wear for church this would be an effort in going to the shops to buy stuff, but the only items of clothing I have that are exclusively for particular activities are some hiking gear, a pair of swimming trunks and a black tie for funerals.
  • The_Riv wrote: »
    I don't know what they say, @Nick Tamen. What I'm saying here is that this guy's wardrobe is a mess compared to his family's, and that his attitude comes across pretty poorly, which I've inferred to be his intention. Maybe I'm wrong.

    The guy is not his family. Almost certainly, the wife dresses the children, and the husband does his own thing. He wouldn't be the first person I've met who's clothing choices don't match his partner's. I'd be willing to bet that he's not intentionally trying to look like anything when he dresses on a Sunday morning - he's just getting up, showering, and grabbing some clothes.

    Perhaps it's unfortunate that he ostentatiously doesn't want to be in church (all the slowly standing with arms folded business), but I'd rather he was in church that in the parking lot. He'll hear some prayers, some preaching, some Gospel - he might not pay any attention to it, but perhaps something will connect with him.


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