I only just encountered Taizé songs for the very first time a couple of weeks ago (sheltered life of traditional hymns, choirs, organ plus a bit of unaccompanied psalmody)
My word, they are tenacious ear worms! I don't know if this is good or bad but can definitely testify that they get stuck there for me and repeated even more. The repetition and simplicity is perhaps part of their earwormy dna. So kind of depends if you like earworms or not.
Chacun a son goût*
De gustibus non est disputandum**
That said, Taizé music can be musically enjoyable and interesting for congregational singing with limited musical knowledge and minimal resources and can be varied in mood and (to some extent) in style. Often, however, what is offered is a very simple ostinato used without preparation, or use of the variety of possible parts, or the sung verses which it was designed to accompany. That indeed can be dull.
*Each to their own taste.
**There’s no arguing about taste.
I think the point of Taize chants is precisely that they're supposed to be like mantras that you repeat. Whereas worship songs present themselves as ways of expressing sentiments you're supposed to be actually feeling at the time.
Taize chants are supposed to be ideas you want to take in; worship songs are supposed to be sentiments you want to give out.
Context can be very helpful with Taize, which is meant to be an immersive experience, and whose music may fall a bit flat (like any music might) when taken out of context, or presented piecemeal. My understanding and experience with it is that the whole environment of Taize worship is designed for relaxation, sublimation and release. The pace is intentionally slow. The lighting is intentionally low. The atmosphere is intentionally fragranced. Congregational focus is guided to a smaller focal point, perhaps an icon. Progressions are gentle. Taize is a whole mood, a whole thing. A wholistic thing. That's my take and advice on it, anyway.
There is a lot dissing worship songs for being simplistic and banal. That has not been true for years. Taze on the other hand is seen as being wonderful but it is as theologically light as the songs being criticised. The same stuff over and over again. Yes it is beautiful but after the third time through starts to grate. There is very little variation in the music.
Nice, but gets dull dull dull quickly. Boring after a while
I will strongly disagree with the claim that Taizé songs are theologically light. They may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but most of the texts come straight from Scripture.
As already said, Taizé songs are intended to be meditative prayers. My experience is similar to what @The_Riv describes; when churches try to use Taizé music in a “regular” service, they often use it poorly or inappropriately.
Another thing to remember about Taizé songs is that they were designed to be easily learned and sung by people from a variety of countries who speak a variety of languages. Simplicity is vital in that context.
Taizé and Taizé music have been very important parts of my spiritual life since I first discovered them in the early 80s. I’ve had very few experiences in my life that meet the “religious experience” idea of thoroughly transcendent or visionary, but the first such experience happened to me at the service where I was introduced to Taizé songs, while singing Cantate Dominum, omens gentes! Alleluia! (“Sing to the Lord, all people! Alleluia!”). Though I have not been to Taizé, I have been to services and retreats led by brothers from Taizé.
These days, each week, I listen to/pray along with (via podcast) Die Lichterfeier aus Taizé (“The Celebration of Light,” the Saturday evening service) from DomRadio. I would encourage people to give that a listen (you can do that through a video like this one) to get a sense of Taizé music, which is more just the short Taizé songs, in its “natural habitat.
Again, it may not be your thing, which is fine. But at least you’ll have a feel for what it actually is intended to be like.
I only just encountered Taizé songs for the very first time a couple of weeks ago (sheltered life of traditional hymns, choirs, organ plus a bit of unaccompanied psalmody)
My word, they are tenacious ear worms! I don't know if this is good or bad but can definitely testify that they get stuck there for me and repeated even more. The repetition and simplicity is perhaps part of their earwormy dna. So kind of depends if you like earworms or not.
They definitely can become ear worms! My experience is that they are ear worms that present themselves at the Right Time. A time of stress or crises, such as sitting in the waiting room during a loved one’s surgery, and an encouraging of comforting Taizé song worms its way into my head.
Once, I had a dream where the Taizé song Gott ist nur Liebe was being sung in the background of the dream. It was one of those few dreams that I can pretty vividly remember 15 or more years later. (It also featured a very large Chuck Taylor All-Stars high top tennis shoe. )
Gott ist nur Liebe.
Wagt, für die Liebe alles zu geben.
Gott ist nur Liebe.
Gebt euch ohne Furcht.
“God is only Love.
Dare to give everything for love.
God is only Love.
Give yourself without fear.”
Suffice it to say that if there is an overriding theme of challenge and encouragement I’ve needed throughout my adult life, this is it. The song continues to hold meaning for me and challenge me.
A Taize service was the first time I ever encountered musical meditation. I adored it. And the words to some of the songs definitely made me think. Taize isn't for everyone. Meditation isn't for everyone. But if one is from a tradition that doesn't do meditation,* it can be literally life changing.
*I had mostly only experienced fundamentalist evangelical Christianity
I am lucky enough to have been to Taize a couple of times. There they repeat the chants for maybe 10 minutes until they fade into the background of one's thinking/prayer. I was there with 4000+ mostly young people, mostly gently singing in harmony (they have a daily practice) all accompanied by a single acoustic guitar. No readings, no long silences, just one chant at length after another. No leader speaking, just the number of the next chant on a board.
Spine tingling and contemplative.
Nothing at all like the so-called Taize services I have been to in the UK where there are readings, homilets, candle lighting etc.
Taizé services are also a good way of involving people who maybe don’t normally volunteer to take part in services. As well as visiting Taizé in France, I have enjoyed experiencing Taizé services in several churches, forming a temporary core choir, with instrumentalists as available ( flute works well) and on one occasion a professional singer for the cantor/ solo parts, though that worked less well. The congregation quickly picked up the songs. The services were gentle, reflective, calming, with thoughtfully chosen readings and meditations. Very memorable.
Just to add, I chose the Taizé version of
“ Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom”, as we left my husband’s graveside.
For what it's worth:
I used to listen to Taize songs a lot when at home alone coming out of a deep depression. They helped a lot. We also use the songs in our Anglican Cursillo Pilgrim weekends and other meetings. We find they can enable folk to encounter Our Lord in a very real way.
Question: why are we in 'Hell' and not 'Epiphanies?
Reminds me of Satan in Marlowe's 'Dr Faustus'; 'Why, this is Hell, nor am I out of it'.
The songs helpe d me out of my own depressive hell.
I used to arrange a Taize service at Our Place on a Saturday evening, once a month. I followed the suggested order of service from the Taize website, using the psalm, reading, and intercessions provided. IIRC, no song suggestions were included, so I chose what seemed to me to be suitable music for the time of the (liturgical) year.
No homilets, no candle-lighting (that was all done beforehand!), only one brief reading, and intercessions in the form of a short litany.
BTW, I echo the question posed by @RockyRoger - why is this thread in Hell?
I had an essay about how this relates to some Buddhist practices I'm aware of, but deleted it because it seemed unfitting to Hell and to the practice of Taize.
The problem with hating Taize is you need to stop overthinking. The point of singing simple songs over and over again is to get your mind to stop overtaxing itself and just be for a change. Learn to settle into the pleasant condition you call boredom, and it'll stop being boring. It's good for the soul.
I'm also amused that this thread is in hell, but it's refreshing to have something light to bicker about for a change.
OK, I'll add a funny anecdote, funnier because this is now Ecclesiantics.
So, I learned about Buddhism somewhat via Aikido (Japanese martial art emphasizing peace and harmony.) Folks who knew my prior shipname may recall I had a portrait of Morihei Ueshiba - aka O Sensei - for an avatar, which was incredibly pretentious of me, but I did train for some years. And my last instructor was a man of some renown named Kevin Choate, now of memory eternal. For this anecdote, it is worth noting that Kevin Choate Sensei was a thoroughgoing agnostic in matters spiritual, but a very wise man about spiritual things, and an incisive wit.
Later in his career, Kevin Choate Sensei started to take up Systema. Systema is a Russian martial art. And a key practice in Systema that's...less horrible than it sounds...involves a kind of disciplined striking of each other so you learn how to handle giving and receiving blows. This is something you ease into gradually, starting with a kind of shoving people with fists and escalating to light blows. I never got far into it, but I did some preliminary drills.
At the time of my training, I was also in seminary, and Sensei would often tease me about this. And he told a story once about these Russian Orthodox monks who'd combine their religious praxis with Systema, basically chanting the Jesus prayer while ritually beating each other up. "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, for I am a sinner...*thump*...Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, for I am a sinner...*thump*..."
And he went on to quip that the point of chanting like that was...the act of chanting is the important thing. It's not so important what you say, but putting your brain into a kind of "holding pattern" has virtue for certain exercises. You could recite children's rhymes! "Mary had a little lamb, little lamb..."
"Sorry, wrong lamb!"
I laughed. He was wise. This may go up there in the weirdest liturgical experiences I've ever heard described.
But yeah, as a Christian or even as a human, I do find it a useful exercise to use chants or repetitions to settle the mind into a stable "holding pattern." And it does take a certain discipline to get into the practice. It can become habit forming, perhaps like chanting the psalms.
And he went on to quip that the point of chanting like that was...the act of chanting is the important thing. It's not so important what you say, but putting your brain into a kind of "holding pattern" has virtue for certain exercises. You could recite children's rhymes! "Mary had a little lamb, little lamb..."
"Sorry, wrong lamb!"
I laughed. He was wise. This may go up there in the weirdest liturgical experiences I've ever heard described.
But yeah, as a Christian or even as a human, I do find it a useful exercise to use chants or repetitions to settle the mind into a stable "holding pattern." And it does take a certain discipline to get into the practice. It can become habit forming, perhaps like chanting the psalms.
Right, with the most 'raw' form of this being breathwork or breath awareness meditation. Having done both this and Taize I'm not the two things are completely equivalent though, even if they have some features in common. I think in Taize the words do matter, it's not just a case of stilling or focus.
If you know what the words mean, sure. But I've been to such services where the Latin or whatever wasn't translated - so it did just become stilling and focus.
If you know what the words mean, sure. But I've been to such services where the Latin or whatever wasn't translated - so it did just become stilling and focus.
Yes, I'm just saying these are two distinct (even if related) experiences/phenomena.
@Hugal - I suspect that like me you are old enough to remember 1980s worship songs and I must admit, I prefer them to those which came later, precisely because they actually contained scripture.
I certainly wouldn't dismiss all worship songs from the '90s and 2000s but I can't say that I've noticed a great deal of 'improvement' over the years.
I watched an online video of a service from a friend's HTB-related parish down south and it was the kind of charismatic-lite style I'd anticipated. I found it excruciatingly boring to be honest and fast-forwarded to the sermon, which wasn't bad, and the communion which was painfully lacking in any sense of the numinous for my current tastes - if we can put it that way.
As with all these things, it's all down to context. I think those here who have actually visited Taize or attended 'proper' Taize services are on the money. I remember watching a service from Taize itself on the telly once at the height of my charismatic evangelical involvement.
It blew me away.
Nobody was ranting and shouting at the congregation in an attempt to whip up enthusiasm.
The focus was firmly where it ought to be. On Christ.
Ok, I know that not all charismatic churches go in for ranting and shouting and trying to stir things up artificially - that's not the point I'm making.
The point is that these things have to be taken in context and in their own terms.
Of course, a certain amount of subjectivity inevitably creeps in. You may feel that worship songs haven't been bland for years. I may think differently. The ones that they were singing in my friend's church certainly were. Matt Redman's 'Heart of Worship' may have served its purpose in the particular context where it was written - and which was helpfully explained by the worship leader in her introduction - but I really don't want to listen to it or sing it ever again.
I think @Dafyd nails it. Worship songs, in their contemporary guise, are meant to elicit a particular response and express particular emotions that you are 'supposed' to be feeling. If you don't feel in the right mood aren't experiencing those emotions then they don't 'work'.
Whereas with Taize or traditional plainchant and so on it doesn't really matter what mood you are in to start off with.
I attended an 'Akathist' service last night and my mind was all over the place - I'm experiencing some emotional upheaval at the moment. I found it hard to concentrate but by the end I'd found some kind of focus. If I'd attended a charismatic evangelical service instead I would have felt pressurised to feel or express some kind of 'mood' or reaction which was far from the one I was actually feeling at the time.
So no, Taize and other forms of chant or more meditative hymnody is no more 'dull, dull, dull' than contemporary worship songs and choruses and serves a different purpose.
Nothing at all like the so-called Taize services I have been to in the UK where there are readings, homilets, candle lighting etc.
Our nearby Jesuit-run university has a Taize service at 9 p.m. on Wednesdays (students do like their late-night services), and every week I hear the chapel's bells ring at 9 and 10 p.m. and think I should visit the service sometime. I know it's got candles and lower lighting but probably also readings and prayers in addition to the chants.
Sometimes we discuss on Ship of Fools what makes a community. Well, I can say, as someone who attends a charismatic church, I know exactly what doesn’t make me feel wanted on Ship of Fools. I assumed this was a thread about Taize, but it looks like it is turning into another thread to bash the charismatic church.
One or two short readings, and some short spoken prayers, are usually included, in the suggestions for services, on the Taize website/
Every Taizé service put on by brothers of Taizé that I have experienced, whether in person or virtually in some way, has included at least one or two, usually short, readings and short spoken prayers, all in at least two or three languages. The Saturday evening Celebration of the Light that I mentioned above normally includes a reading of one of the resurrection accounts.
If you know what the words mean, sure. But I've been to such services where the Latin or whatever wasn't translated - so it did just become stilling and focus.
Yes, I'm just saying these are two distinct (even if related) experiences/phenomena.
I'd agree with you there. While my old Sensei's anecdote is amusing, I do think the words matter. I'm also not deep enough into meditative practice to comment specifically on the nuances of the two.
Sometimes we discuss on Ship of Fools what makes a community. Well, I can say, as someone who attends a charismatic church, I know exactly what doesn’t make me feel wanted on Ship of Fools. I assumed this was a thread about Taize, but it looks like it is turning into another thread to bash the charismatic church.
I'm sorry, I hate that. You are welcome and wanted here.
I remember, years ago, being part of an animated discussion with a couple of people about the music we enjoyed listening to and feeling really put down at the almost sneering attitude they had to some of the genres/ artists I liked.
I think we can all sometimes forget how connected other people can be at a very deep level to things like music.
I also think the discussion of church musical/ liturgical styles is perhaps the Ship's equivalent of that and that when voicing our opinions it's good to remember that in addition to being unhelpfully triggered by some other styles people may also have deep feelings and connections to their own chosen style.
Sometimes we discuss on Ship of Fools what makes a community. Well, I can say, as someone who attends a charismatic church, I know exactly what doesn’t make me feel wanted on Ship of Fools. I assumed this was a thread about Taize, but it looks like it is turning into another thread to bash the charismatic church.
I'm sorry, I hate that. You are welcome and wanted here.
I remember, years ago, being part of an animated discussion with a couple of people about the music we enjoyed listening to and feeling really put down at the almost sneering attitude they had to some of the genres/ artists I liked.
I think we can all sometimes forget how connected other people can be at a very deep level to things like music.
I also think the discussion of church musical/ liturgical styles is perhaps the Ship's equivalent of that and that when voicing our opinions it's good to remember that in addition to being unhelpfully triggered by some other styles people may also have deep feelings and connections to their own chosen style.
Thank you to you both. I also attend a charismatic church and would be glad if can we keep this thread on the subject of Taize and not use it as an opportunity to criticise the worship styles of others.
Sometimes we discuss on Ship of Fools what makes a community. Well, I can say, as someone who attends a charismatic church, I know exactly what doesn’t make me feel wanted on Ship of Fools. I assumed this was a thread about Taize, but it looks like it is turning into another thread to bash the charismatic church.
That's not how I see it. If anything a representative of the 'charismatic church' as you put it was having g a go at Taize and, rightly in my view, was called out for doing so.
Ok, I'm a former charismatic evangelical and still very much admire the closeness of fellowship and genuine community found in charismatic circles. I'm certainly not dismissing charismatic worship and experience per se, even though I no longer roll that way.
I've never encountered anyone who has tried to make out that Taize is somehow more 'special' than other styles of worship - whether contemporary worship songs or traditional Wesleyan style hymns or whatever else.
So the OP mystifies me to some extent. It struck me as a case of, 'Some people have a go at my favoured style of worship so I'll have a go at theirs ...'
Be that as it may and whatever @Hugal's motivation, I can certainly say that I very much value your contributions here aboard Ship @Heavenlyannie and if I have caused offence by anything I've posted then I apologise.
I would like to learn more about taize - it is not something I have experienced. I wonder if I would like it, as I practice meditation and I use immersive sound for that sometimes.
I would like to learn more about taize - it is not something I have experienced. I wonder if I would like it, as I practice meditation and I use immersive sound for that sometimes.
You might enjoy exploring their website, both to listen to what’s available there, but also to learn more about the Community and its history and ethos. The musical style doesn’t exist in a vacuum, but rather is rooted in the life of the Community.
It ain't for me to say, of course, but I think you'd probably enjoy or appreciate Taize as an occasional supplement to your regular worship diet, if I can put it that way.
And in saying that I intend no value judgement on either.
I think there is something very sharp in @Nick Tamen's comment about the overall context though.
We can't isolate any particular worship style or genre from its ecclesial or theological context.
Cathedral style worship, for instance, works best in a cathedral.
You can't really replicate it in your average parish church.
Equally, the same goes for the vibe of a large charismatic rally. You can sing the same songs in a small hall with a dozen people but it won't be the same as the experience at the other larger event. But you can do something else with it.
I've been thinking a lot about context recently. I may start a new thread on that and in a non-value judgement way.
Comments
My word, they are tenacious ear worms! I don't know if this is good or bad but can definitely testify that they get stuck there for me and repeated even more. The repetition and simplicity is perhaps part of their earwormy dna. So kind of depends if you like earworms or not.
De gustibus non est disputandum**
That said, Taizé music can be musically enjoyable and interesting for congregational singing with limited musical knowledge and minimal resources and can be varied in mood and (to some extent) in style. Often, however, what is offered is a very simple ostinato used without preparation, or use of the variety of possible parts, or the sung verses which it was designed to accompany. That indeed can be dull.
*Each to their own taste.
**There’s no arguing about taste.
Taize chants are supposed to be ideas you want to take in; worship songs are supposed to be sentiments you want to give out.
As already said, Taizé songs are intended to be meditative prayers. My experience is similar to what @The_Riv describes; when churches try to use Taizé music in a “regular” service, they often use it poorly or inappropriately.
Another thing to remember about Taizé songs is that they were designed to be easily learned and sung by people from a variety of countries who speak a variety of languages. Simplicity is vital in that context.
Taizé and Taizé music have been very important parts of my spiritual life since I first discovered them in the early 80s. I’ve had very few experiences in my life that meet the “religious experience” idea of thoroughly transcendent or visionary, but the first such experience happened to me at the service where I was introduced to Taizé songs, while singing Cantate Dominum, omens gentes! Alleluia! (“Sing to the Lord, all people! Alleluia!”). Though I have not been to Taizé, I have been to services and retreats led by brothers from Taizé.
These days, each week, I listen to/pray along with (via podcast) Die Lichterfeier aus Taizé (“The Celebration of Light,” the Saturday evening service) from DomRadio. I would encourage people to give that a listen (you can do that through a video like this one) to get a sense of Taizé music, which is more just the short Taizé songs, in its “natural habitat.
Again, it may not be your thing, which is fine. But at least you’ll have a feel for what it actually is intended to be like.
They definitely can become ear worms! My experience is that they are ear worms that present themselves at the Right Time. A time of stress or crises, such as sitting in the waiting room during a loved one’s surgery, and an encouraging of comforting Taizé song worms its way into my head.
Once, I had a dream where the Taizé song Gott ist nur Liebe was being sung in the background of the dream. It was one of those few dreams that I can pretty vividly remember 15 or more years later. (It also featured a very large Chuck Taylor All-Stars high top tennis shoe.
Gott ist nur Liebe.
Wagt, für die Liebe alles zu geben.
Gott ist nur Liebe.
Gebt euch ohne Furcht.
“God is only Love.
Dare to give everything for love.
God is only Love.
Give yourself without fear.”
Suffice it to say that if there is an overriding theme of challenge and encouragement I’ve needed throughout my adult life, this is it. The song continues to hold meaning for me and challenge me.
*I had mostly only experienced fundamentalist evangelical Christianity
Tangent.
I use John Taverner's Prayer of the Heart sung by Bjork with the Brodsky Quartet.
Spine tingling and contemplative.
Nothing at all like the so-called Taize services I have been to in the UK where there are readings, homilets, candle lighting etc.
Just to add, I chose the Taizé version of
“ Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom”, as we left my husband’s graveside.
I used to listen to Taize songs a lot when at home alone coming out of a deep depression. They helped a lot. We also use the songs in our Anglican Cursillo Pilgrim weekends and other meetings. We find they can enable folk to encounter Our Lord in a very real way.
Question: why are we in 'Hell' and not 'Epiphanies?
Reminds me of Satan in Marlowe's 'Dr Faustus'; 'Why, this is Hell, nor am I out of it'.
The songs helpe d me out of my own depressive hell.
No homilets, no candle-lighting (that was all done beforehand!), only one brief reading, and intercessions in the form of a short litany.
BTW, I echo the question posed by @RockyRoger - why is this thread in Hell?
The problem with hating Taize is you need to stop overthinking. The point of singing simple songs over and over again is to get your mind to stop overtaxing itself and just be for a change. Learn to settle into the pleasant condition you call boredom, and it'll stop being boring. It's good for the soul.
I'm also amused that this thread is in hell, but it's refreshing to have something light to bicker about for a change.
So, I learned about Buddhism somewhat via Aikido (Japanese martial art emphasizing peace and harmony.) Folks who knew my prior shipname may recall I had a portrait of Morihei Ueshiba - aka O Sensei - for an avatar, which was incredibly pretentious of me, but I did train for some years. And my last instructor was a man of some renown named Kevin Choate, now of memory eternal. For this anecdote, it is worth noting that Kevin Choate Sensei was a thoroughgoing agnostic in matters spiritual, but a very wise man about spiritual things, and an incisive wit.
Later in his career, Kevin Choate Sensei started to take up Systema. Systema is a Russian martial art. And a key practice in Systema that's...less horrible than it sounds...involves a kind of disciplined striking of each other so you learn how to handle giving and receiving blows. This is something you ease into gradually, starting with a kind of shoving people with fists and escalating to light blows. I never got far into it, but I did some preliminary drills.
At the time of my training, I was also in seminary, and Sensei would often tease me about this. And he told a story once about these Russian Orthodox monks who'd combine their religious praxis with Systema, basically chanting the Jesus prayer while ritually beating each other up. "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, for I am a sinner...*thump*...Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, for I am a sinner...*thump*..."
And he went on to quip that the point of chanting like that was...the act of chanting is the important thing. It's not so important what you say, but putting your brain into a kind of "holding pattern" has virtue for certain exercises. You could recite children's rhymes! "Mary had a little lamb, little lamb..."
"Sorry, wrong lamb!"
I laughed. He was wise. This may go up there in the weirdest liturgical experiences I've ever heard described.
But yeah, as a Christian or even as a human, I do find it a useful exercise to use chants or repetitions to settle the mind into a stable "holding pattern." And it does take a certain discipline to get into the practice. It can become habit forming, perhaps like chanting the psalms.
Right, with the most 'raw' form of this being breathwork or breath awareness meditation. Having done both this and Taize I'm not the two things are completely equivalent though, even if they have some features in common. I think in Taize the words do matter, it's not just a case of stilling or focus.
Yes, I'm just saying these are two distinct (even if related) experiences/phenomena.
I certainly wouldn't dismiss all worship songs from the '90s and 2000s but I can't say that I've noticed a great deal of 'improvement' over the years.
I watched an online video of a service from a friend's HTB-related parish down south and it was the kind of charismatic-lite style I'd anticipated. I found it excruciatingly boring to be honest and fast-forwarded to the sermon, which wasn't bad, and the communion which was painfully lacking in any sense of the numinous for my current tastes - if we can put it that way.
As with all these things, it's all down to context. I think those here who have actually visited Taize or attended 'proper' Taize services are on the money. I remember watching a service from Taize itself on the telly once at the height of my charismatic evangelical involvement.
It blew me away.
Nobody was ranting and shouting at the congregation in an attempt to whip up enthusiasm.
The focus was firmly where it ought to be. On Christ.
Ok, I know that not all charismatic churches go in for ranting and shouting and trying to stir things up artificially - that's not the point I'm making.
The point is that these things have to be taken in context and in their own terms.
Of course, a certain amount of subjectivity inevitably creeps in. You may feel that worship songs haven't been bland for years. I may think differently. The ones that they were singing in my friend's church certainly were. Matt Redman's 'Heart of Worship' may have served its purpose in the particular context where it was written - and which was helpfully explained by the worship leader in her introduction - but I really don't want to listen to it or sing it ever again.
I think @Dafyd nails it. Worship songs, in their contemporary guise, are meant to elicit a particular response and express particular emotions that you are 'supposed' to be feeling. If you don't feel in the right mood aren't experiencing those emotions then they don't 'work'.
Whereas with Taize or traditional plainchant and so on it doesn't really matter what mood you are in to start off with.
I attended an 'Akathist' service last night and my mind was all over the place - I'm experiencing some emotional upheaval at the moment. I found it hard to concentrate but by the end I'd found some kind of focus. If I'd attended a charismatic evangelical service instead I would have felt pressurised to feel or express some kind of 'mood' or reaction which was far from the one I was actually feeling at the time.
So no, Taize and other forms of chant or more meditative hymnody is no more 'dull, dull, dull' than contemporary worship songs and choruses and serves a different purpose.
Our nearby Jesuit-run university has a Taize service at 9 p.m. on Wednesdays (students do like their late-night services), and every week I hear the chapel's bells ring at 9 and 10 p.m. and think I should visit the service sometime. I know it's got candles and lower lighting but probably also readings and prayers in addition to the chants.
A quick look at YouTube for *Taize Prayer Service* brings up any number of recent videos, quite a few from the US.
The full service, from Taize itself, is worth watching - the order of service, and the songs, can be downloaded as well.
I'd agree with you there. While my old Sensei's anecdote is amusing, I do think the words matter. I'm also not deep enough into meditative practice to comment specifically on the nuances of the two.
I'm sorry, I hate that. You are welcome and wanted here.
I remember, years ago, being part of an animated discussion with a couple of people about the music we enjoyed listening to and feeling really put down at the almost sneering attitude they had to some of the genres/ artists I liked.
I think we can all sometimes forget how connected other people can be at a very deep level to things like music.
I also think the discussion of church musical/ liturgical styles is perhaps the Ship's equivalent of that and that when voicing our opinions it's good to remember that in addition to being unhelpfully triggered by some other styles people may also have deep feelings and connections to their own chosen style.
Thank you to you both. I also attend a charismatic church and would be glad if can we keep this thread on the subject of Taize and not use it as an opportunity to criticise the worship styles of others.
That's not how I see it. If anything a representative of the 'charismatic church' as you put it was having g a go at Taize and, rightly in my view, was called out for doing so.
Ok, I'm a former charismatic evangelical and still very much admire the closeness of fellowship and genuine community found in charismatic circles. I'm certainly not dismissing charismatic worship and experience per se, even though I no longer roll that way.
I've never encountered anyone who has tried to make out that Taize is somehow more 'special' than other styles of worship - whether contemporary worship songs or traditional Wesleyan style hymns or whatever else.
So the OP mystifies me to some extent. It struck me as a case of, 'Some people have a go at my favoured style of worship so I'll have a go at theirs ...'
Be that as it may and whatever @Hugal's motivation, I can certainly say that I very much value your contributions here aboard Ship @Heavenlyannie and if I have caused offence by anything I've posted then I apologise.
And in saying that I intend no value judgement on either.
I think there is something very sharp in @Nick Tamen's comment about the overall context though.
We can't isolate any particular worship style or genre from its ecclesial or theological context.
Cathedral style worship, for instance, works best in a cathedral.
You can't really replicate it in your average parish church.
Equally, the same goes for the vibe of a large charismatic rally. You can sing the same songs in a small hall with a dozen people but it won't be the same as the experience at the other larger event. But you can do something else with it.
I've been thinking a lot about context recently. I may start a new thread on that and in a non-value judgement way.