Hell on wheels -- Church says cycle lane causing weeping and gnashing of teeth

The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
edited April 7 in Purgatory
Story here.

Church website here: St. Margaret's Church, Altrincham.

Looking at the church via the satellite view, it seems as if the single entrance via Gorsey Lane wasn't ideal to begin with, and even though I have zero expertise in urban planning it does appear as if cutting access direct to the drive that encircles the church from Dunham Road may be problematic since two other roads intersect Dunham Road right there. The Vicar says that bewildered parishioners are "getting lost." Attendance (weekly?) has dropped for 100 to 60.

"And when the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!”

Then I looked and saw a black Cannondale bicycle, and its rider held in his hand a bottle of liquid carbohydrates. And I heard what sounded like a voice from among the four living creatures, saying, “A plate of pasta for a denarius, a and three pints of lager for a denarius, and do not harm the chain lube and tires.” --2 Velosians 5-6


St. Wiggins, hear our prayer!

Kidding aside, what's this poor place to do?

Comments

  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    The new road layout was established two years ago. It seems odd that regulars at the church (for either services or other activities) haven't worked out the access route by now. Visitors might struggle more, unless they have access to sat nav (Google Maps gets the directions right). A complaint that the new network was confusing church members might have been more reasonable when the plan was outlined or first implemented, but at this point it's just part of how things are.

    There are plenty of churches and other community buildings that have idiosyncratic access routes - my church is at the end of a road, which from one direction had you driving on the main road past the church (which at that point is on top of a hill to the left) and then coming back along the parallel residential street (an additional half mile from the point you pass the church); and if you enter the name of the church (rather than be given the correct post code for the front door) you may be directed through a sheltered housing complex to the back of the church and have to walk around the building to get in. But that complex route has been the case since the church was built, not that it makes telling anyone without access to a sat nav how to get there any easier.
  • Stop drinking lager for a start ...

    But good post, @The_Riv.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    edited April 7
    Pilsner then, @Gamma Gamaliel! And, thanks!
  • If you enter the name of the church (rather than be given the correct post code for the front door) you may be directed through a sheltered housing complex to the back of the church and have to walk around the building to get in. But that complex route has been the case since the church was built, not that it makes telling anyone without access to a sat nav how to get there any easier.
    With us it's the other way round: the postcode takes one round the back.

  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    Maybe they could...put up some signs directing people to the parking lot? Maybe try to attract more pedestrians and cyclists to come to church? I'm the kind of guy who'd rather use a bicycle to get to church anyway, so I'd be interested to see what that kind of mission would look like.

    Looking at the map, I see an awful lot of houses within walking distance of the church. Why not reach out?
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    The_Riv wrote: »
    The Vicar says that bewildered parishioners are "getting lost." Attendance (weekly?) has dropped for 100 to 60.

    Although if you go to the Manchester Evening News article linked on the church website you get a slightly more extended version of the quote:

    Via: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/bee-network-change-outside-church-31329222

    "Rev Murray said: “Prior to Covid we were getting between 80 and 100 people in the congregation, but since then and since the road closure it’s down to about 60. The traffic restriction is driving people away from the church."

    I can imagine the parking/one way situation doesn't help, but a lot of things have changed over Covid and a lot of churches have seen their attendance patterns change.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited April 7
    The new road layout was established two years ago. It seems odd that regulars at the church (for either services or other activities) haven't worked out the access route by now. Visitors might struggle more, unless they have access to sat nav (Google Maps gets the directions right). A complaint that the new network was confusing church members might have been more reasonable when the plan was outlined or first implemented, but at this point it's just part of how things are.

    I have vague memories of reading about this some time ago, so I suspect there were complaints made at the time.

    https://road.cc/content/news/vicar-fears-cycle-lane-outside-church-puts-it-under-threat-306021

    More generally, it's almost impossible to make significant changes to roads without making someone's life worse. In this case, people attending St Margaret's have lost the ability to turn off the main road and drive straight to the church. That's clearly worse. They have to turn off one road earlier or later and wiggle round the back instead - clearly worse, but it hardly seems like an insurmountable challenge.

    The conversion of Gorsey Ln to one-way, and the addition of a cycle lane clearly have good intentions. Whether those intentions are actually successful is a different question.

    Here, by the way, is a link to the story of the teenage girl who was campaigning for a safer crossing for her school, which is about a 10 minute walk south of St Margaret's, and some fraction of its pupils cross this main road by the church on their way to and from.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/13-year-old-who-took-27706449

    "Make traffic safer in a place where a school full of kids walk" seems like a pretty good reason, on the face of it.
  • The_Riv wrote: »
    Pilsner then, @Gamma Gamaliel! And, thanks!

    Well, I'd rather real ale, but a decent Pilsner would do during the summer months.

    I am nothing if not eirenic ... 😉
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    Bullfrog wrote: »
    Maybe they could...put up some signs directing people to the parking lot? Maybe try to attract more pedestrians and cyclists to come to church? I'm the kind of guy who'd rather use a bicycle to get to church anyway, so I'd be interested to see what that kind of mission would look like.

    Looking at the map, I see an awful lot of houses within walking distance of the church. Why not reach out?

    This thought occurred to me -- a "cycle to church" or "hike to church" event might see some new or different people walk or ride in for an introduction or more. I dunno.

    I enjoy ale, too, @Gamma Gamaliel, and have also been known to down an oatmeal stout on occasion. I'm pretty open-palleted, with the exception of IPAs.
  • I tend to agree with @KarlLB on modern IPAs.

    The older and more traditional ones are more palatable but are all too rare. Give me a standard British bitter and I'm happy.

    Oatmeal stout, and stout in general is fine in winter.

    But this is a digression...

    An old joke which may not cross the Pond very well ...

    The M62 (a freeway ? in the North of England) goes into a bar.

    'I'm dead hard, me,' he says intimidatingly. 'I've got 4 lanes and 2 hard-shoulders and run right across t'north of England from Hull to Liverpool!'

    Just then, the M1 folds itself in through the door. 'You're not as hard as I am. I've got 6 lanes, 2 hard shoulders and I run almost the entire length of England, from London to Leeds ...'

    While they square up to each other a thin pink tarmac strip slithers into the room and both Motorways scream in terror and make for the door.

    'You've got to watch him!' the M1 exclaims. 'He's a real cycle-path!'
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Bullfrog wrote: »
    Maybe they could...put up some signs directing people to the parking lot? Maybe try to attract more pedestrians and cyclists to come to church? I'm the kind of guy who'd rather use a bicycle to get to church anyway, so I'd be interested to see what that kind of mission would look like.

    Looking at the map, I see an awful lot of houses within walking distance of the church. Why not reach out?

    This thought occurred to me -- a "cycle to church" or "hike to church" event might see some new or different people walk or ride in for an introduction or more. I dunno.

    I enjoy ale, too, @Gamma Gamaliel, and have also been known to down an oatmeal stout on occasion. I'm pretty open-palleted, with the exception of IPAs.

    For context, I'm an American who uses a bicycle to get around and you get so much of the same crap from American business owners whenever bicycle infrastructure gets installed.

    And it kinda weirds me out that we're so car-obsessed that they don't think that "increased pedestrian traffic" doesn't create opportunities for outreach.

    Then again, I also know churches in the city where, thanks to demographic trends, most of the actual members live miles away from the church. It's an interesting thing, and I wonder if some of that is going on here. Maybe the church's local heyday was a generation ago and now they don't even know any of their actual neighbors.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    I know some churches where the growth of a town or city centre means that there are very few residents actually living in the parish. Most people who worship there drive in, and financially and in other ways resource the church for a midweek ministry to shop- and office-workers.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    I would think that would make it hard to serve your actual parish, to think in the Anglican sense of who a church should serve
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    One son works for Portland Metro. His job is to add more bike lanes througout the city to help slow traffic down. Yes, there is some adjustments to be made, but when I go along his bike lanes I see a number of businesses marketing to the bikers.

    I think the problem with all dying churches is they have not reached out into their communities. It is very hard for churches to reach out to younger families once the median age of the congregation reaches into the 50s. However, it is not impossible. I would ask what strengths the referenced congregation has to meet the current needs of the neighborhood and then go from there.
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    edited April 8
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    One son works for Portland Metro. His job is to add more bike lanes througout the city to help slow traffic down. Yes, there is some adjustments to be made, but when I go along his bike lanes I see a number of businesses marketing to the bikers.

    I think the problem with all dying churches is they have not reached out into their communities. It is very hard for churches to reach out to younger families once the median age of the congregation reaches into the 50s. However, it is not impossible. I would ask what strengths the referenced congregation has to meet the current needs of the neighborhood and then go from there.

    I might balk at the problem, but what you describe is definitely a big problem. And kind of near my neighborhood, I can think of one case where a fellow seminarian of mine was leading a church and told me point blank that what had been a thriving immigrant church was in a steady decline because they refused to reach out to the new folks that moved into the neighborhood after it gentrified. And that's a shame.

    I think they closed their doors for good a few years ago.
  • I've always thought of Portland and that corner of the US as being very much bike-friendly.

    All neck-beards, mountain bikes, independent coffee houses and craft beer.

    Is that a fair perception?
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    @Gamma Gamaliel Anywhere that is particularly friendly to X will get other people who are angry about X and prefer it "the way it was before we had those X people everywhere." Portland is known for that but they also have significant issues with racist pushback when people of color participate in such activities
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I think the problem with all dying churches is they have not reached out into their communities.

    All of them? Really? My response to this is in Hell.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    My comments about cycle lanes are suitable only for Hell.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    Bullfrog wrote: »
    I might balk at the problem, but what you describe is definitely a big problem. And kind of near my neighborhood,

    I had a look at their website; and it included a number of sections that seemed to promise activity for younger congregants, except that under 'Mother and Toddler' we have:

    "WE ARE HOPING TO RE ESTABLISH OUR MOTHER AND TODDLER GROUP, WHICH RAN ON A FRIDAY MORNING PRIOR TO COVID"

    and Sunday School:

    "WE WOULD LIKE TO RE ESTABLISH OUR SUNDAY SCHOOL"

    Both of which - to me - seem to indicate problems stemming from Covid and the associated loss of a cohort or two meaning the church (now) struggles to staff some activities, confirming the impression I got from the MEN article above.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    A Sunday School requires members of the congregation with children (or grandchildren, if the parents agree) of a suitable age. If the church doesn't have members who would use a Sunday School then there isn't going to be a Sunday School. What are they (or rather, we, because it's a gap in the majority of congregations) doing to reach out to those in their 20s and 30s in their community?

    A parent and toddler group could be independent of the worshipping community, the first question to be asked is whether there's a lack of provision for such groups in the area. If all the parents in the area are going to other groups and don't want another group to go to then it's not going to happen. If the community is getting older and the number of families with toddlers is decreasing then there may be little demand for additional groups. It's been a long time since my children were that age, but the groups we used were mostly recommended by other parents who were already going there, especially those we were friends with (they're primarily places for parents to chat while children play, so having friends there is important). If a group shuts down for 2-3 years then the parents who used it previously are less likely to need it (their children have grown up and attend school, and if they don't have younger children then that's part of their past) and the core group to re-establish the group has gone.

    The question those statements raise is whether the church is seeking to meet the needs of their community as it currently is, or just keep on doing what they did to meet the needs of (part of) the community 5 years ago? If the community has changed enough then just keeping on doing the same thing isn't going to work.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    edited April 8
    You can look up the ONS figures for the area:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth?msoa=E02001282

    It's from 2021, but I'd doubt if the composition varies that much. The population looks like a good mix of all ages with relatively high levels of education, so there should be plenty of young families / families with kids within their catchment:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/population/age/resident-age-3a/aged-65-years-and-over?msoa=E02001282
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    We found the difficulty of access by car to our place was a very significant barrier to a parent and toddler group.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Well, it would because many parents drive to toddler groups. Our church doesn't have dedicated parking, with only on-street parking shared by residents across the road, access to a corner shop and parents of children at the primary school next door (or, parking for the sheltered housing if you park around back). Mid week groups result in chaos on the street (where everyone in, say, the yoga group drives one person per car cf Sunday worship where some people walk and many that drive car share, and there are more people in the yoga group than the congregation).

    But, as the access to this church from Gorsey Lane hasn't changed, all that's happened is that Gorsey Lane is now one way, that wouldn't appear to be a significant difference (leaving the church by turning onto a one way street may even be safer). If changes to infrastructure had added half a mile to people walking or cycling to church then that could be a barrier to access, an extra half mile for someone in motorised transport is barely noticeable.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    There’s an article on the survivingchurch site that might be somewhat relevant here:

    https://survivingchurch.org/2025/04/07/the-church-of-england-in-secular-cycles-a-case-of-corporate-long-covid/
    A number of senior clergy have opined that a lot of the struggles the CofE is currently wrestling with have been pinned on to Covid-19. Other senior clergy have expressed scepticism on this, and suspect that Covid-19 has become a distraction for not thinking about the deeper latent problems that were bound to pose issues to the CofE, and eventually become manifest.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Interesting discussion on ELCA Clergy facebook page about a similar problem. A few responders pointed out the problem is an approach to mission. They are saying we can no longer take an attraction approach (if you build it they will come) but the church needs to take a apostolic approach (we are sent out into the world). The question, then, is how can the congregation serve the needs of the community.
  • The better question is, how can we do what Jesus sent us to do. Some of that may mean meeting (some) needs of the community. But we aren't put here for the sole purpose of being a community convenience, and occasionally I think we forget that.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    The better question is, how can we do what Jesus sent us to do. Some of that may mean meeting (some) needs of the community. But we aren't put here for the sole purpose of being a community convenience, and occasionally I think we forget that.

    I see churches struggle for both reasons. The church that tries to do more community* than worship is having serious money troubles but is still worshiping successfully. Most of the churches I know that worship God but don't serve their community, either with the good news or with anything else are already closed or will be soon. So I think isolating oneself from God's people is very dangerous.

    *They see it as serving the people God sent them to serve
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    "What Jesus sends us to do" is a very contextually sensitive question.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    Gwai wrote: »
    I see churches struggle for both reasons. The church that tries to do more community* than worship is having serious money troubles but is still worshiping successfully. Most of the churches I know that worship God but don't serve their community, either with the good news or with anything else are already closed or will be soon. So I think isolating oneself from God's people is very dangerous.

    *They see it as serving the people God sent them to serve

    Continuing from that thought, I sometimes like to remind people that the great comission does not stop at "holy spirit."
    19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.
    And of course teaching people to be a servant not a lord means we'll have to do it too.
  • Bullfrog wrote: »
    "What Jesus sends us to do" is a very contextually sensitive question.

    Certainly, and these are all good points. The trouble for me is that figuring out exactly what Jesus sends us (my particular congregation(s)) to do takes a helluva lot of thinking. I'd say we tend to be more on the overdoing-public-service side, though we're attempting to rein it in. But you can go wrong in either direction.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    I'm trying to decide if Jesus was, in his own words, as concerned about worship and institutional viability as he was community engagement.
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    There is a problem with using the interests of Jesus as one's only yardstick. It's a useful reference point, but there is no evidence that Jesus thought he was founding a religion, other than the highly liturgical accounts of the Last Supper, and John's account of post-resurrection activities. Otherwise, the only evidence of religious activity is in the Acts and the Epistles.
  • Which (the epistles, i mean) are the earliest texts we have. If he didn’t think so, you’ll have to assume Paul & Co. got him spectacularly wrong, within the lifetime of eyewitnesses. And yet nothing remains to show anyone calling them out on it.
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    This is true, but it's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that any structure requires maintenance, so if we think that a given structure, such as a church, is part of the divine plan, then it is going to require maintenance even if this is not explictly mandated in the gospels.
  • That’s true. Though knowing him, I shudder to think of what he’d recommend.
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    Bullfrog wrote: »
    "What Jesus sends us to do" is a very contextually sensitive question.

    Certainly, and these are all good points. The trouble for me is that figuring out exactly what Jesus sends us (my particular congregation(s)) to do takes a helluva lot of thinking. I'd say we tend to be more on the overdoing-public-service side, though we're attempting to rein it in. But you can go wrong in either direction.

    Certainly. I tend liberal myself, but I'm also aware of churches that turn into what I'd call "glorified social service agencies," and there are hazards to that.

    On the other hand, if you're not doing something for the people around you, what are you doing? Even if it's considered a mission, certainly in secular US, it's hard to get people to show up just to get preached at and fed communion. I think people like to see a community that's active.

    I do think that God's call has to be tied into that, and discerning that...yep, that is not an easy question. Each one has its own particular place.
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