Baby baptised twice in C18th

I have come across a curiosity in our parish records.

In 1753 a baby, John, was born after the death of its father, William.

Baby John was baptised, presumably within a week of its birth, as was the custom. The witnesses were the baby's paternal grandfather, George, and someone I think was the baby's paternal great-grandfather. At any rate, he was a relative with the same surname.

Nine days later the baby was re-baptised in the church in the neighbouring parish. This time he was baptised John-William. The paternal grandfather, George, stood as sponsor, and the witnesses were the man I think was great-grandfather and, interestingly, the man who, twelve months later, became the widow's second husband and the baby's step-father.

Why two baptisms? I don't think the inclusion or exclusion of a middle name would have made any difference. Did a baptism, in the absence of the deceased father, require a man to stand in his stead, thus the paternal grandfather standing as sponsor second time round?

If the first baptism was ineffective, why not re-baptise in the same parish? The neighbouring parish church is 5.5 miles away by road now; there may have been a track which was shorter then, but it must have been at least an eight mile round trip with a baby unlikely to have been more than a fortnight old, in early October.

Comments

  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    I should add, both parishes were Church of Scotland; there was no denominational difference.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited November 14
    Maybe someone wanted Dad’s name added and thought it must be baptismal to be official - but the first parish refused because the baby had already been baptised. Whereas the other parish either didn’t know or didn’t care ?
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    How do you detect that a baptism has been ineffective?
  • I know in England (MWARP! MWARP! Dangerous extrapolation alert!) a child could be privately baptised when, presumably, they were not expected to survive, but there was an expectation that this would be followed with a more normal baptism.

    I've come across a few cases of that, but never of the second being in another parish (of course, this could be because I wasn't looking for them). Also, nine days seems a bit short from being at death's door to fit to lug five miles cross-country in autumn.

    I could try the Tay Valley Family History Society FB page for you? Message me further details if you want.
  • Was the first an emergency baptism, i.e. one where the child was not expected to survive and possibly not carried out in the church at all?
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    I think the first was carried out in the child's home, as almost all baptisms were at the time. The second specifies that it was in the church in the next parish.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    edited November 14
    HarryCH wrote: »
    How do you detect that a baptism has been ineffective?

    If the first baptism was effective, why the second? It's not as though one was organised by the father's side and the second by the mother's. Both the witnesses at the first attended the second - one as Sponsor, one as witness.
  • What I do know is that in mid-twentieth century Scotland, babies who were thought to be unlikely to survive would be emergency baptised to make sure they were OK to go to heaven. Then if the did survive a second "official" baptism happened later when people could gather to have a celebration.

    I am not sure whether this happened in 17th Century, I do know it happened at least on one occassion mid 20th Century.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    I could see that happening, @Jengie Jon but there were only nine days between the two baptisms. The first was late September, the second in early October. The route today involves a bridge; it would have been a river ferry then. I think that if the baby was unwell enough for an emergency baptism, you wouldn't be travelling with it nine days later.

    Also, both parents families lived in the first parish. There may have been wider family in the neighbouring parish, but the grandparents, for example, lived in the first parish.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    edited November 14
    I know in England (MWARP! MWARP! Dangerous extrapolation alert!) a child could be privately baptised when, presumably, they were not expected to survive, but there was an expectation that this would be followed with a more normal baptism.

    Not quite true. They would be taken to church for a public welcoming/reception but without the actual baptism. This is what the rubric says:

    ” If the person lives, they shall afterwards come to church, or be brought to church, and the service for Holy Baptism followed, except that the Signing with the Cross, the Prayer over the Water and the Baptism are omitted.”
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    The records in both parishes clearly say that baby John / John-William was baptised.

    If it had been the other way round - if the entry in neighbouring parish was first - I might have wondered if for some reason (birth happened away from home?) the baby had been baptised there, and their own parish had simply noted the fact of baptism in their own records, missing out the middle name, and the grandfather standing as Sponsor.

    Baby John / John-William died in 1820, so if he was a sickly baby, he clearly went on to thrive.
  • I think the term you want for a second rite when there are doubts about the first is "conditional baptism." They tend to start, "Name, if you are not already baptized, then I baptize you... " etc. The point is that there's no such thing as two baptisms. But there may be cases where there's a doubt about whether the first really constituted a baptism in God's eyes at all (if I remember, the old thread gave the example of someone self-baptizing in the name of Yeshu Ben Pantera using a banana milkshake). To settle doubts then, a proper baptism would be done with the "if" clause tacked on.

    So if I had to guess about the OP, someone either had serious doubts about the first rite, and/or was able to convince the second church that there were grounds for concern. I can't explain the trip to another congregation that way, though, unless the thing causing concern was an ongoing problem in the first congregation--for example, the minister there had lost his ever-loving mind and was doing freaky things, and there was every reason to suspect he'd do it the second time as well--and the disciplinary authorities hadn't yet stepped in. (I wonder if there were other similar cases in the records about the same time?)
  • My brother was born prematurely and was not expected to survive. A sister the Roman Catholic hospital in which he was born baptized him at my parents' request. In fact, he did survive. About a month later my parents presented him at our church, but he was not rebaptized. They simply affirmed that he had been baptized. This is usually the norm in Lutheran circles. If a child receives emergency baptism, it is simply reaffirmed at a later date.

    No matter, I don't think God would mind infants receiving an extra dose of water.
  • I think the term you want for a second rite when there are doubts about the first is "conditional baptism." They tend to start, "Name, if you are not already baptized, then I baptize you... " etc.
    The thing is that Presbyterians, at least historically, haven’t really done conditional baptisms as a thing. At least, it’s not something specifically provided for. @North East Quine and other Church of Scotland folk would know better than I, but I’d be more than a bit surprised if a Presbyterian church thought in terms doing of a conditional baptism in 1753.


  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited November 14
    @North East Quine - is it known for a fact that there was only the one baby involved in this curious story?
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    I'd be surprised, too, @Nick Tamen

    Originally posted by @Lamb Chopped
    unless the thing causing concern was an ongoing problem in the first congregation--for example, the minister there had lost his ever-loving mind and was doing freaky things, and there was every reason to suspect he'd do it the second time as well

    I really don't think so.

    Looking through the records, the minister was ill in July, and still not back to full health by September. Some of the sermons were preached by probationers. But on the date of the first baptism (24 Sept) the minister of a neighbouring parish was providing cover. And even if there was an issue with the parish minister's health and availability, the church in the parish to the south is only 2.5 miles away, on the same side of the river, and connected by a road which was good even then.

    Apart from that, everything seems normal. There was a complaint in Jan 1754 that "those who attempted to sing in divine service did it in a very disagreeable and inharmonious manner" ...because of ... "none attempting to sing any but the Tenor part " and I guess if that was a recorded complaint in Jan 1754, the rumbles of discontent had started by Sept 1753, but I can't see that impacting on a baptism.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    @Sandemaniac

    What does 'MWARP' stand for?
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    @North East Quine - is it known for a fact that there was only the one baby involved in this curious story?

    I did wonder if it was definitely the same baby, but (let us call the child John McSmith) there can't be two John McSmiths born at about the same time, in the same parish, both of whom are the posthumous child of a William McSmith, and both of whom have their baptisms witnessed by George McSmith and William McSmith, sr.

    (The second baptism in Parish B states that the family is from Parish A)
  • stetson wrote: »
    @Sandemaniac

    What does 'MWARP' stand for?
    Given that the two MWARPs were followed by “Dangerous extrapolation alert!,” I took the MWARPs to be something akin to a Klaxon alarm.



  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    stetson wrote: »
    @Sandemaniac

    What does 'MWARP' stand for?

    It’s the sound of a klaxon warning of a dangerous extrapolation. :smile:
  • Could there have been twins--one of whom, perhaps, didn't make it? If that child was baptized first while the healthier one was left to be "done" later, and then the first died--well, it was common for parents to name the next living child with the same name, or one very similar. And it would explain the other identical family stuff.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    I think that it would say somewhere in the record if the child was a twin. And that wouldn't explain travelling outwith the parish for the baptism.

    There were quite a few McSmiths in the parish. A William McSmith was an elder of the church from 1713 until his death in 1745. He was replaced as elder by "William McSmith, senior" I assume "William McSmith, senior" was the same "William McSmith, senior" who witnessed both baptisms.

    It makes no sense for an elder of the church in Parish A to go to the church in Parish B for a second baptism.

  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    Would this work?

    Early September. The widow is in Parish B, visiting a friend or relative, when she goes into labour. The baby is born, word is sent to her late husband's family, who arrive and baby John-William is baptised, with his paternal grandfather standing in for his late father, plus two witnesses.

    The widow recovers from the birth and returns home to Parish A . The minister offers to baptise the baby, and she says that he is already baptised. As the family belong to Parish A, the baptism is entered into Parish A's register of baptisms on 24 September.

    In early October the Parish B minister notices that there is no record of the baptism in Parish B. The clerk says that he didn't record it because the McSmiths belong to Parish A. The minister says that as the baptism was carried out in Parish B it has to be recorded in Parish B. And so, on 3 October, the baptism is recorded in Parish B's register of baptisms.

    Possible?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Seems plausible to me.


  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    edited 9:11AM
    stetson wrote: »
    @Sandemaniac

    What does 'MWARP' stand for?

    Nick Tamen and BroJames are correct, it's an onomatopeic for a klaxon or similar alarm.

    While I'm here, I think your posited solution looks plausible, @North East Quine. Unless you find a reason in the church rubric that this would not have been allowed, it may be your best explanation this side of an ouija board.
  • agingjbagingjb Shipmate
    I was baptised at about a week. There was a later service when I was around two. I assume, since it was C of E, that the prescribed form for conditional baptism was used.
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