Zero Sum Prayer
Foaming Draught
Shipmate
in Purgatory
This time a couple of years ago, the Coral Sea hosted Cyclone Kirilly, forecast to cross the coast (like a km or so down the road from us) as a Category 3. @Clarence prepped for WWIII. As we watched the Bureau of Meteorology's page in our shelter, even at the point of hitting a nearby beach, Kirilly suddenly swerved right and smashed places to the north of us.
Now we have cyclone Koji, destined by all the forecasters to hit us smash bang, swerving left (ie south) to miss us and cause mayhem to the south of us.
Obv we're relieved to miss the worst (still pretty bad if you know anything about NQ cyclones), but why should our prayers be any more efficacious than folks' to our south (or a couple of years ago to our north?)
Where, if anywhere, does Luke 13 come into this?
Now we have cyclone Koji, destined by all the forecasters to hit us smash bang, swerving left (ie south) to miss us and cause mayhem to the south of us.
Obv we're relieved to miss the worst (still pretty bad if you know anything about NQ cyclones), but why should our prayers be any more efficacious than folks' to our south (or a couple of years ago to our north?)
Where, if anywhere, does Luke 13 come into this?
Comments
There will always be natural disasters but it may be humanly possible to moderate their frequency and strength. And there is also a value in seeking to improve prediction as a means of preventing the worst.
I think we’re talking about the importance of responsible stewardship, and prayer for more of that strikes me as a good thing. So does lobbying for the same. So does improved education about causes.
Ultimately, both are unanswerable but there are a number of things we do know. We know we are commanded to pray. And we know that prayer brings us closer to God. The Victorian writer George Macdonald said some pertinent things which you can find here https://ccel.org/ccel/macdonald/unspoken2.v.html - God's purpose in prayer is at least in part simply to bring us to himself.
And we do know that, for practical purposes, we have to live in a world where, yes, shit happens. If a child is killed on the road, is it because God willed it? Or because someone drank too much or drove while under the influence of drugs? That I take to be the moral of Jesus's stories about the tower at Siloam and the faithful worshippers Herod killed.
All that seems to suggest that prayer has no 'practical' effect. And yet... It has been rightly said that the point about a 'mystery' is not that you can't understand anything about it, but that you can't understand everything about it.
Last summer, I was told I had cancer, of the sort which doesn't have a good outcome. I know that many, very many, people prayed for me regularly and sincerely. After three months, the scans showed a different picture and I was sent away to get on with life. Why should that be my story, when it is not that of others?
For what it's worth, if pinned to a personal view of the effectiveness of prayer, I would go with Archbishop Temple. Not quite as far as 'when I pray, coincidences happen'; but possibly 'when I stop praying, coincidences no longer happen'.
There may be a problem of “I can’t see any way God could solve this without doing something I don’t want him to do”—but that’s not something we need to trouble ourselves with, it’s far above our paygrade. This falls into the category of “God’s privitee”—that is, things he hasn’t told us, no doubt because we couldn’t possibly understand them from our current standpoint. Maybe someday but not now. At this point it’s kind of like mental chewing gum—it’ll get the brains spinning, but nothing useful will come of it in the end. We just don’t have the data or the perspective.
As for Luke 13, I’m not clear on whether that relates to prayer at all. It looks to me as if someone told Jesus about Pilate’s action, hoping to get him to say something treasonous for which they could report him; and instead of falling into the trap, he made both that event and the falling tower into an occasion to warn people that they need to repent now and not assume they have years left in which to do so.
I think it's understandable why that might be the case. Not that I'm against petitionary prayer, of course.
There seems to be some kind of spectrum or continuum from those liberal Christians who don't believe in an 'interventionist' God (a form of Deism?) to those health/wealth 'prosperity gospel' types who seem to boss the Lord around and demand answers to their prayers on the grounds that they are using the right formula.
It's an area where I play the 'mystery' card.
'Again and again in peace, let us pray to the Lord.'
Another time I was broken down in the rain on a motorbike on the high bit of the M62. I had recently been very cross in a meeting of 'Christian Bikers' who were very born-again, didn't like me (liberal or small bike or Southern or...) and who had been praying for minutiae about their bike obsessions in a prayer meeting I thought was BS. So there I was, stuck, and I prayed feeling very sheepish, and a van full of builders stopped immediately and put me and the bike in the back.
The first story was last summer, and the second in about 1994. There's not much in- between. I ought to follow LC's son's example.
It seems to give rise to these kinds of logical pretzels more than other kinds.
It's interesting and salutary to read the verse that immediately follows:
'You ask and do not receive because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.'
So James exhorts us to 'ask' but not to ask 'amiss.'
From James 1:5 it appears that the key thing we should be asking for is 'wisdom.'
I'm still working on that one...
I love those stories.
I suspect "asking that you may spend it on your pleasures" is the ancient version of prosperity gospel preaching.
Yeah, I like that one too. It's always an opportunity to learn, not an opportunity to judge. Suffering is often capricious and seemingly random. Be grateful you didn't die, but don't assume it's because you earned anything. Learn as you can, try to do the best with what you have. One could argue historically that Jesus was staring down the barrel of the impending doom of the Roman invasion, but really, I think we're always living in some kind of apocalyptic period. If it's not one thing, it's another.
I have a long history of being really cranky about questions about suffering and accidents thanks to parental trauma warping my childhood (don't feel bad, I've had years to deal with it.) And I think that's my conclusion. Suffering and misery are capricious and a constant reminder to be humble.
I also resonate a lot with the notion @Lamb Chopped posted about "above my pay grade." That's how I feel about a lot of things.
On the grounds that there are 'no new heresies'?
I still don't do anything as a prayer but now before I sleep I just listen to the world and think there is nothing I can hear or sense which doesn't originate with God. I like to think I can offer God all that I experience as a mirror of what he has brought about. I think sometimes, if we're ever still enough, perhaps we can get an inkling of what God experiences and some sense of what is pleasing to God.
Thanks for sharing. Your night-time ritual sounds lovely to me.
I like the stories that @Lamb Chopped and @mark_in_manchester tell but find them rather embarrassing at the same time - even though I've had very similar experiences myself.
Am I alone in this? I don't think so.
I put it down to being a post-Enlightenment 'Westerner' - and don't get me wrong, there was certainly light in the Enlightenment.
I s'pose it's a case of 'Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief.'
Will I ever be 'free' of such conflicted reactions and responses before I shrug off this mortal coil or before the Parousia?
I doubt it.
It's not that I don't accept or believe the stories or accounts or think that anyone here is swinging the lead. Far from it.
But I still struggle. But then, so did the Israelites in the wilderness despite the miracles and the manna.
Lord have mercy!
Me neither. We talked about this in seminary. It's just new versions of old games.
Absolutely my stories are embarrassing! I was going to slightly modify that to 'humiliating' but I see @Lamb Chopped has beaten me to it. I too think that might be part of the point. I really liked LC's comment about answers to her son's prayers which don't feel 'entirely proper' - I'm glad she thinks that, because she gives the impression on here that she is a lot more open to all this than I am, and that's my reaction too. But there it is. Also - these stories are not very comforting for (say) my dead-cousin-and-his-also-dead-wife's-kids - the Lord apparently deciding to teach me a lesson by hauling my sorry ass out of the rain; or reminding me not to mock trad RC folk-religion (can I say that?); whilst not actually saving their parents from an early grave. I suppose that's the real embarrassment (scandal might be a biblical term) - and I am sorry (very) to those folks who will read these silly stories and have a similarly dreadful reason to decide that I (or worse, the Lord) am full of sh*t. I don't know what to do about that, and often keep my mouth shut.
Or at least, no more than the rest of us.
😉
I can't speak for anyone else but I very much enjoy your posts on a whole range of issues.
This one included.
I keep reminding myself that I don’t have the whole perspective on things, and maybe if I did, I’d see why he chose that particular prayer to answer, or why he said no to another (and that’s on my mind today, when he’s just let a good friend, pastor and much needed husband and father die of a hospital-acquired infection without the heart transplant he so desperately needed.) But he never seems to feel the need to explain himself, certainly not to me. And he’s really good at communicating “That’s not your business” when he thinks I need it. He’s got no concern for his own reputation at all, and it frustrates me.
So here are a few of my thoughts.
Our spiritual traditions inevitably form our understanding of prayer. My roots are firmly planted in the Catholic (both RC and Anglican) tradition where I learnt about prayer as connection with God- silent, centering, Jesus prayer for instance but also healing prayer as part of a Eucharist. Intercessory/ petitionary prayer forms an important but not in my opinion central plank of prayer in this tradition.
Almost 50 years ago I married into a very conservative evangelical tradition where prayer meetings were all about petition, more often than not for some missional cause. The 70s and 80s then brought me into the arena of charismatic churches sometimes high but more often low where prayer was either connection with God through ecstatic type experiences or energetic petitions for transformation of desperate situations.
There have been a few times where I have personally witnessed a fairly dramatic outcome from a petitionary prayer that has no visible explanation. But they are few and far between. More often than not the gains are more subtle but perceivable when I bother to look closely.
If I look at my own life I would say that as has been identified by the OP and other comments there is no rhyme or reason as to why God would do/ not do certain things.
So my question to myself nowadays is how do I remain faithful in petitionary prayer without setting up false expectations in myself and others.
I may not know the outcome but I do still offer petitionary prayers because just as with The Butterfly Effect who knows what might happen?
I tend to commit people and situations into God's hands rather than making very specific requests for Divine Intervention. My observation is that more often than not answers to prayers come through other people.
And finally I remain forever grateful to the wonderful nuns who educated me and taught me the lesson of the Psalms that anything and everything can be offered to God as prayer be it painful or beautiful.
These days I try - and fail - to pray 'the Hours' and the regular Orthodox offices as consistently as I can. I do pray extemporarily too and will draw on my evangelical background and vocabulary for that - but without the 'really justs' ...
The 'just' shall live by faith.
I wouldn't dismiss any Christian tradition's prayer practices out of hand. What matters is the authenticity and sincerity and the intention (to borrow an RC phrase).
I have no idea how any of this 'works' but get on with it trusting that God hears us for all our weakness and inconsistency.
Thank you Lyda. Of course when a loved one is possibly on death's door, petitioning and even bartering may occur regardless of what one believes. Like so much about what it is to be human it isn't all up to us. We aren't as powerful or important as we might like. But we still have roles to play for which we've been issued no cue script.
There are any number of psalms that do just that. Tell god what to do and call him to account for not doing so already.
To tell the truth, it seems to be one of the things God's un-training me in lately. At least toward him personally. It reminds me of an aunt of mine who got so frustrated with me and my siblings that she point-blank ordered us to stop being so polite all the time.
"Don't tell me what to do, bitch!"
“ Just ask nicely..” almost guaranteed that you get what you didn’t ask for.
I'm guessing...is this where if you're not feeling strongly enough to break decorum, you don't really want it badly enough to persuade God that you're serious?
Reminds me of articles I've read that cussing is often taken as symptomatic of sincerity...
If I have to persuade him I'm serious, he's not God.
One of the benefits of dealing with the real God for me is that I don't have to go through all that bullshit, as if he had the limits or even the perversity of human communicators.
No, if he's trying to untrain me out of my overly polite ways, the reason will have something to do with my own well-being--not some ridiculous challenge he's cooked up to decide if I meet his standards this time.
If that's the case, and we have it on good authority, then our sincerity or insincerity levels aren't going to pose a problem.
It's James the Lord's brother who tells us that the 'effective fervent prayer of a righteous man (person) availeth much' (Gamaliel paraphrase).
And our Lord Himself who told parables about persistence in prayer.
So that would appear to indicate that the Almighty does expert a certain degree of struggle, persistence and fervour. But not, I submit in a perverse sense of 'Right I'll let them squirm and suffer to the point that they swear at me to show their sincerity...'
Of course, there are inevitably issues around Theodicy and we aren't going to get to the bottom of those here.
Not much to explain.
I’m 20 years ahead of you and also had “politeness” thumped into me as well as “ now girls, play nicely”. Prayer was a big deal and one asked God “nicely” for whatever with the mistaken belief that the end result would be favourable. We were also assured that God is all-knowing and all-wise. Talk about riding for a fall!
Time went on, and lessons were learned. The result: a healthy dose of scepticism and fatalism with much better results.
No doubt! I've also known folks - not sure if you're one - who can say the absolute heaviest things with utmost decorum. It's an art form.
I go back and forth on the "cussing as sincerity" thing. I grew up in a non-cussing household and have married into a cussing one, so I code switch unconsciously.
If there is a God then who knows Their thoughts? I don’t.
What I think is another matter and not up for discussion.
Honestly? That's beyond my pay grade, but I think you're right.
For everybody else--
I suppose our individual experiences are always going to trump whatever we read or hear from other people. I'm just really surprised that there are apparently people who think God pays attention primarily to what I think of as surface issues in communication--politeness, how earnest you appear, swearing, etc. I'm having to readjust my ideas now.
Readjust your ideas about god, or readjust your ideas about the range of human beliefs about god?
For my own part, and this supports what you are saying about our experiences - and I'd add, our traditions which indeed inform our experiences - it feels strange to me now when evangelical and other Protestant friends start to pray without first invoking the name of the Trinity.
That doesn't mean I believe that God is going to respond by saying, 'Whoah! Whoah! Let's back up a minute ... let's get the formularies right before I hear you out ...'
Of course not.
I'm not sure that means I have to 'adjust' anything in my own approach or expect them to adjust theirs - and no, I don't start every prayer with 'In the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit,' although I will start my 'set' prayer times that way.
Do you mean you hsve to adjust your understanding of how other people pray? I'm not clear what you mean.
The latter. This is eye opening.
I have similar thoughts, but am probably less surprised ...
Unless, of course, the 'eye-opening' comments came from me. Which I doubt. My thoughts and comments are generally highly predictable ...
Both_ands ... over-egging of puddings ...
It used to be quipped about the Pentecostals that they didn't subscribe to 'God is dead' theology but 'God is deaf' given the fervour and loudness of their petitions.
Equally, of course, more sacramental traditions can act as if God only responds to genteel decorum, and in some contemporary evangelical settings we could be forgiven for thinking he's swayed by 'street-talk.'
Yo, dude ...
We all know of course that the Almighty is most properly addressed in 1662 Prayer Book language or King James Version English.
We are all only human and that being the case I think we all 'anthropomorphise' to some extent or other. However we pray it's going to be culturally conditioned to some degree. God 'gets' that.
But yes, as you say and I agree, God does look beneath surface issues such as communication style, and doesn't need to be told - or shown - how sincere or serious we are.
Which doesn't mean that we shouldn't work at our 'intentions' or sincerity - insofar as it depends on us to do so and we are bound to do these things imperfectly.
'But he gives more grace.'
Mind if I dig into that a bit?
First thought...
I'm a curious person in this conversation, because I can find myself absorbing other people or ideas because my own are a little loosely attached, especially when it comes to theology. So out of a desire to empathize or understand people, I'll pick up other people's ideas and end up giving them expression as if I agreed. Or sometimes they're in the range of "eh, whatever. I can see that."
I trust God to forgive me if I'm mistaken. And the same probably covers a bunch of us. It makes me a little loosey goosey in theological conversation. If this makes me seem less serious, mea culpa.
I think you're right. God is truth, ultimately, and seeks the truth.
People, on the other hand, are not usually so honest with themselves most of the time, I think. As you may infer from my own opener, I'm not. I'm a mess of mixed motivations, social desires, and extremely porous feelings depending on who I'm around and what I'm dealing with at the time.
Even now, I'm blasting loud music to drown out my son's very enthusiastic stimming so I can focus on this little essay. I sometimes can't even think for myself without picking up other people's thoughts, feelings, etc. It's dangerous.
So, unless it's a really clear day and a really quiet space, no way in hell do I know what I really want to ask for most of the time. I hope that God knows. I figure God might know better than I do, and if I pray, maybe it's to try to clear up my own garbled mess.
Second thought...
If I wanted to guess about "cussing is more honest," let me take a swing at it thusly...
I read a piece once about the saying "in vino veritas."
That saying exists because apparently people think that if you get someone drunk enough, they'll tell the truth. If they forget to be polite, if they forget social niceties...if they lose their inhibitions you'll find out who they really are inside.
That's the part of a person that cusses, grunts, and wants on a gut level. The id, as Freud would put it. And I think some folks think that it's more honest to pray from your gut rather than your head. That's what you really want.
Get that? Now watch me deconstruct it. An article I read, on Cracked.com of all places, was arguing that removing a person's self-control is not guaranteeing you're getting an honest take of them. It doesn't make them more honest. It just makes them stupid and selfish. And it's undignified to treat that as an entire person. It isn't.
Are prayers more honest if they're more emotional? I'm not sure about that, which is what I meant when I said I agreed with you.
God does know what we're asking for, regardless of how we choose to express these wishes.
And thanks for helping me clear that up.
What I'm reading suggests that at least a few people truly do think the external form of prayer matters to God--either that he CAN be fooled and manipulated, or else that he himself puts a surprising amount of weight on issues like swearing, proper address, and so forth, regardless of what the heart is saying. This surprises me.