Australian politics - effective opposition

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Comments

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?

    How you jump from what I said to your comment their is utterly beyond me.

    I'm sorry it's hard to keep up.

    Ah. Casting aspersions on my intellect rather than explaining yourself.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?
    But opposition in government is not about criticising “a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.” It is about holding the party in power to account, and opposing those policies which you think are wrong or wrong-headed. Yes, and criticising those who support the wrong or wrong-headed policies. That is criticising them for their actions or omissions, not for “the perceived characteristics of some of them”.
  • peasepease Tech Admin

    I think that's what's called virtue signalling.

    To the detriment of facts or history have a look at Nigel Biggar's book, Colonialism.
    Well, thanks for nailing your colours to the mast.

    Hurrah! The wind's set fair…

    We sail the ocean blue,
    And our saucy ship's a beauty
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?

    How you jump from what I said to your comment their is utterly beyond me.

    I'm sorry it's hard to keep up.

    Don't kid yourself.

    There's not a lot to 'keep up' with.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    @WhimsicalChristian polygamy isn't specific to Islam of course, many Christians (especially in Africa) also practice it. I don't personally see an intrinsic problem with having multiple spouses - patriarchal systems of polygamy are a problem because of the sexism, not because having multiple spouses is bad.

    Sharia law is just religious law akin to church canon law - it doesn't have to be in conflict with civil or criminal law.

    Many Christians do not practice it. African christian polygamy takes its"scriptural source" from the Old Testament, ignoring the New Testament which is a cause for significant division globally in the Anglican Communion ( my church).

    The problem of multiple spouses IS primarily one of patriarchy and sexism as I don't see any countries or religions where it's okay for women to have multiple spouses.

    Given the extent to which sexism is baked into Sydney Anglicanism, you may want to be careful about throwing stones there.

    In Nepal, polyandry (multiple husbands) is traditional for women there. Also, modern polyamory involves multiple partners of any gender.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    Hostly beret on

    @WhimsicalChristian your post here can be interpreted as a personal attack. The Ship's rules do not allow personal attacks outside of Hell.

    Hostly beret off

    la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
  • edited February 26
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?

    How you jump from what I said to your comment their is utterly beyond me.

    I'm sorry it's hard to keep up.

    Ah. Casting aspersions on my intellect rather than explaining yourself.

    I apologise. A weak moment.

    If you can explain yourself on which part of my question you are having trouble with in relation to your definition of racism above, I'll try clarify. The question was based on your definition and the association seemed quite clear.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?

    How you jump from what I said to your comment their is utterly beyond me.

    I'm sorry it's hard to keep up.

    Ah. Casting aspersions on my intellect rather than explaining yourself.

    I apologise. A weak moment.

    If you can explain yourself on which part of my question you are having trouble with in relation to your definition of racism above, I'll try clarify. The question was based on your definition and the association seemed quite clear.

    @BroJames already answered here.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?
    But opposition in government is not about criticising “a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.” It is about holding the party in power to account, and opposing those policies which you think are wrong or wrong-headed. Yes, and criticising those who support the wrong or wrong-headed policies. That is criticising them for their actions or omissions, not for “the perceived characteristics of some of them”.

    Perceived characteristics of some of them was not my wording. It's nonsense.

    Groups have characteristics. That's what makes them groups.

    And yes thank you, you have reinforced my point.

  • No not that one. Try reading a more balanced review or the book cover itself.
  • edited February 26
    pease wrote: »

    I think that's what's called virtue signalling.

    To the detriment of facts or history have a look at Nigel Biggar's book, Colonialism.
    Well, thanks for nailing your colours to the mast.

    Hurrah! The wind's set fair…

    We sail the ocean blue,
    And our saucy ship's a beauty

    Nailing my colours to the mast? You mean intellectual and historical integrity? Yes absolutely. You're welcome.
  • Pomona wrote: »
    Pomona wrote: »
    @WhimsicalChristian polygamy isn't specific to Islam of course, many Christians (especially in Africa) also practice it. I don't personally see an intrinsic problem with having multiple spouses - patriarchal systems of polygamy are a problem because of the sexism, not because having multiple spouses is bad.

    Sharia law is just religious law akin to church canon law - it doesn't have to be in conflict with civil or criminal law.

    Many Christians do not practice it. African christian polygamy takes its"scriptural source" from the Old Testament, ignoring the New Testament which is a cause for significant division globally in the Anglican Communion ( my church).

    The problem of multiple spouses IS primarily one of patriarchy and sexism as I don't see any countries or religions where it's okay for women to have multiple spouses.

    Given the extent to which sexism is baked into Sydney Anglicanism, you may want to be careful about throwing stones there.

    In Nepal, polyandry (multiple husbands) is traditional for women there. Also, modern polyamory involves multiple partners of any gender.

    I'm not a Sydney Anglican.

    As for Nepal or other polyamory? They're not christians. You said lots of christians.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?

    How you jump from what I said to your comment their is utterly beyond me.

    I'm sorry it's hard to keep up.

    Don't kid yourself.

    There's not a lot to 'keep up' with.

    Surely that counts as a personal attack @la vie en rouge ?

  • No not that one. Try reading a more balanced review or the book cover itself.

    Which specific argument in that book do you believe supports your argument?
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?
    But opposition in government is not about criticising “a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.” It is about holding the party in power to account, and opposing those policies which you think are wrong or wrong-headed. Yes, and criticising those who support the wrong or wrong-headed policies. That is criticising them for their actions or omissions, not for “the perceived characteristics of some of them”.

    Perceived characteristics of some of them was not my wording. It's nonsense.

    Groups have characteristics. That's what makes them groups.

    And yes thank you, you have reinforced my point.

    The problem is when perceived characteristics of a subgroup form the basis of criticism of the entire group.

    Such as, for example, when Muslims are portrayed as terrorists.

    It's more acute when the perceived subgroup characteristic is of questionable validity or indeed utter nonsense, but it's a problem even when it isn't. It's essentially a logical fallacy:

    Z is a characteristic of X
    X is a subgroup of Y
    W is Y
    Therefore W is Z

    It's not unlike

    All cats have four legs
    My dog has four legs
    Therefore my dog is a cat.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    Pomona wrote: »
    @WhimsicalChristian polygamy isn't specific to Islam of course, many Christians (especially in Africa) also practice it. I don't personally see an intrinsic problem with having multiple spouses - patriarchal systems of polygamy are a problem because of the sexism, not because having multiple spouses is bad.

    Sharia law is just religious law akin to church canon law - it doesn't have to be in conflict with civil or criminal law.

    Many Christians do not practice it. African christian polygamy takes its"scriptural source" from the Old Testament, ignoring the New Testament which is a cause for significant division globally in the Anglican Communion ( my church).

    The problem of multiple spouses IS primarily one of patriarchy and sexism as I don't see any countries or religions where it's okay for women to have multiple spouses.

    Given the extent to which sexism is baked into Sydney Anglicanism, you may want to be careful about throwing stones there.

    In Nepal, polyandry (multiple husbands) is traditional for women there. Also, modern polyamory involves multiple partners of any gender.

    I'm not a Sydney Anglican.

    As for Nepal or other polyamory? They're not christians. You said lots of christians.

    I didn't say that you were a Sydney Anglican - the point is that you seem very comfortable to associate all Muslims with specific sexist practices when your own Australian Anglican compatriots are famously deeply sexist.

    I said that lots of Christians partake in polygamy, because they do. You said that having multiple spouses is inherently sexist because there aren't any countries where women have multiple husbands - you didn't say that they had to be Christian countries. If the argument is about having multiple spouses, why does it matter if the participants in question are Christian or not?
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    @WhimsicalChristian I'm confused about what white spirituality is and the contention that we white people have lost it. Are you referring to Christianity or some spirituality that is somehow based on a lack of melanin in the skin? White people are not a cultural monolith and some majority white countries are even majority Muslim countries.

    I am concerned with the trend in the UK (or is it mainly England?) to conflate Christianity with British values and law. Jesus certainly wasn't English and British laws have never been entirely based on his teachings. Christianity is for all people, a global religion, and skin colour or nationality are irrelevant. This British Christian nationalism is creeping into Australia too, though thankfully a minority view.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    BroJames wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?
    But opposition in government is not about criticising “a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.” It is about holding the party in power to account, and opposing those policies which you think are wrong or wrong-headed. Yes, and criticising those who support the wrong or wrong-headed policies. That is criticising them for their actions or omissions, not for “the perceived characteristics of some of them”.

    Perceived characteristics of some of them was not my wording. It's nonsense.

    Groups have characteristics. That's what makes them groups.

    And yes thank you, you have reinforced my point.

    Indeed “perceived characteristics of some of them” were KarlLB’s words. He said
    What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.
    You replied
    So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?
    The clear implication of your reply is that criticising “a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them” is what opposition in government is about, and I was disagreeing with your implication.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?

    How you jump from what I said to your comment their is utterly beyond me.

    I'm sorry it's hard to keep up.

    Don't kid yourself.

    There's not a lot to 'keep up' with.

    Surely that counts as a personal attack @la vie en rouge ?

    Quite possibly.

    You aren't the only one who has weak moments.
  • Not sure what happened there.

    You are not the only one to have weak moments @WhimsicalChristian.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Doublethink
    You also seem to be failing to appreciate why racism is a problem - and therefore why pedantry doesn’t solve that problem.

    WhimsicalChristian
    I can certainly appreciate why racism is a problem but cautioning against radical islam is not racism because it contains any number of races as I said above.

    Racism is a problem, because it involves judging large number of individuals - usually negatively - on the basis of their sharing one superficial characteristic.

    Religion is often used a proxy for race - what is known as a “dog whistle”, I.e. a way of disguising a political message such that those who know, know what you mean. Typically, people who say they are worried about Islam, are not primarily “worried” about white Muslims.

    Even where this is not a proxy for race - anti-Muslim prejudice is a problem for the same reason as anti-semetism, sectarianism and other forms of bigotry. It involves judging large numbers of individuals on the basis of a shared superficial characteristic, and often then enables hostile actions and attitudes toward them. There are are over a billion Muslims on the planet, they are not a monolith. They are just like you and me.

    I think you need to change the definition of racism in this context to ideology. Because you are changing the definition of racism.

    And superficial characteristic is not a fair call if it is known large numbers of whatever group share the same characteristic.

    You're basically saying you're not allowed to criticise anyone, for whatever reason if they identify with whatever.

    Nonsense. What you can't do is criticise a whole group and especially individual members of it for the perceived characteristics of some of them.

    I see. So we are no longer allowed opposition in government?

    How you jump from what I said to your comment their is utterly beyond me.

    I'm sorry it's hard to keep up.

    Don't kid yourself.

    There's not a lot to 'keep up' with.

    Surely that counts as a personal attack @la vie en rouge ?

    Quite possibly.

    You aren't the only one who has weak moments.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    pease wrote: »

    I think that's what's called virtue signalling.

    To the detriment of facts or history have a look at Nigel Biggar's book, Colonialism.
    Well, thanks for nailing your colours to the mast.

    Hurrah! The wind's set fair…

    We sail the ocean blue,
    And our saucy ship's a beauty
    Nailing my colours to the mast? You mean intellectual and historical integrity? Yes absolutely. You're welcome.
    Whether a book exhibits intellectual and historical integrity is largely a matter of perspective.

    Nailing one's colours to the mast expressed a defiant refusal to surrender and willingness to fight to the last man, to the bitter end. During the French Revolutionary Wars, it became a propaganda tool.
    Not sure what happened there.
    I think you might have found the limit.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host

    No not that one. Try reading a more balanced review or the book cover itself.
    You appear to think that "balanced" means flattering to points of view you like.
  • @pease, limit of what?

    My post didn't look like it'd gone through then suddenly it did so repeatedly.

    Apologies for that.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    The limits for nested quoting. It's possible it was something else but, in any event, including 15 nested quotes seems more than enough context for any response.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited February 26
    This appears to have become an extended discussion of race, which would belong in an appropriately OPd thread in Epiphanies (as would a similar discussion about religious minority identity or sexism). Anyone wishing to start or participate in such a thread should first carefully read the Epiphanies guidance.

    Doublethink, Admin
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    Thanks for the reminder, Doublethink
  • pease wrote: »
    The limits for nested quoting. It's possible it was something else but, in any event, including 15 nested quotes seems more than enough context for any response.

    Apologies, I hadn't meant to include all the nested posts.

    And thanks for the reminder too, @Doublethink.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »


    I didn't say that you were a Sydney Anglican - the point is that you seem very comfortable to associate all Muslims with specific sexist practices when your own Australian Anglican compatriots are famously deeply sexist.

    I think that "when some of your own Australian Anglican..." would be more accurate wording.
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