I dislike the phrase ‘Jesus is my boyfriend’ to describe contemporary worship songs as I think it belittles Christians, such as myself, who have a non-traditional worship style. It is not exactly inclusive, on a thread which discusses core Christian beliefs which unite us.
A tangent of course.
I don’t think it’s about contemporary worship style. My local congo rarely sings anything written before 1980!
Nor do I knock the value of personal adoration. Like for example “Oceans”. Or from a slightly earlier period “Breathe”.
Echoing Matt Redman, however, exclusive use of songs of personal adoration can lead to the worship of worship. Which songs like Michael J Smith’s “Agnus Dei” or Andrew Peterson’s “Is He worthy” do not. They focus on the Lord.
Mind you, I probably overstated! What contemporary worship songs have been good at is moving the sung focus more away from songs about the Deity to songs to the Deity. And that’s been a good thing. I don’t want to knock that.
Get stroppy when the creed is left out or changed, or if a newfangled version of the Lord's Prayer is used. *yuk*
Stroppy as in a bit grumpy, I take it. Not an American expression for me.
It’s completely understandable to feel unsettled when familiar words in worship change. These prayers and creeds have carried us through childhood, crisis, joy, and ordinary Sundays; they become part of how we know God and how we know ourselves. When wording shifts, it can feel like losing a piece of home. Your reaction isn’t resistance to faith—it’s love for what has shaped you. God meets us in both the old and the new, and the heart of worship remains the same: trust, gratitude, and the shared life of the community.
However, the dropping of the filioque clause is going back to the original language that was approved by the Council of Constantine in 381 CE.
The changing of the petition "Lead us not into temptation." to "Save us from the time of trial" is also an attempt to get back to the original koine Greek of the prayer. Personally, I never liked the "Lead us not into temptation." Does God cause temptation? Does not compute, for me. "Save us from the time of trial" recognizes we all face trials through no fault of our own or of God's.
Other ways of saying the same petition
"Do not let us fall into temptation" (Pope Francis preferred this rendition.
Emphasizes God's protection, not God's causing).
"Keep us from the path of temptation."
"Guard us in times of testing" (I kind of like this one).
"Protect us when trials come."
"Do not abandon us to temptation" (Common in French, Spanish and Italian liturgical translations).
At least in the Lutheran liturgy the rubric for reciting the creed says it may be recited at a certain point in the liturgy. Funny, when I grew up it was always after the Gospel reading. Now it is after the sermon/homily. Last Sunday we did not recite it at all.
At the risk of continuing the tangent, a friend of mine says that when he was in a conservative evangelical context he sang songs 'about' God. In an evangelical charismatic setting he sang songs 'to' God but also tried to work himself up to 'feel' God's presence in some way.
Now he's in a more liturgical and sacramental setting he doesn't have to do either because God is 'there'.
I can see what he's getting at but feel he's over-stating the case. I would say that God is 'there' in all those settings and indeed is 'present everywhere and fills all things.'
The 'worship of worship' thing can happen anywhere and everywhere. There are plenty of liturgical geeks about who make a big deal about the minutiae of vestments or Psalm settings or particular gestures and rituals.
Whichever Christian tradition we're involved with there are going to be examples of that or parallels of some kind. It's not for us to determine who is worshipping with sincerity and authenticity or otherwise, whether it's drum'n'bass or bells and smells.
That’s obviously right. And worship is definitely not just songs.
I’m pretty eclectic about the means folk use to practise the presence of God. They all have value and dangers.
I’ve got into trouble for saying this before but I don’t throw stones at other peoples’ windows. My opinion re “Jesus is my boyfriend” is personal and subjective, and not without qualification.
In Canada, I got used to "save us from the time of trial" and it was hard switching back again on our return to the UK.
I don't like too much messing around with "the basics" of liturgy (Lord's Prayer etc). These are things where you shouldn't need to be reading from the service booklet (or whatever) as you will know them by heart. That's where good liturgy succeeds - you know enough by heart to stop reading the words and start really praying them - if you know what I mean.
That’s obviously right. And worship is definitely not just songs.
I’m pretty eclectic about the means folk use to practise the presence of God. They all have value and dangers.
I’ve got into trouble for saying this before but I don’t throw stones at other peoples’ windows. My opinion re “Jesus is my boyfriend” is personal and subjective, and not without qualification.
I'm not telling you off.
I've been one of the worst offenders here for dissing other people's worship song lyrics and so on and once drove someone away from the Ship by being crude, snarky and unpleasant - something I deeply regret.
That doesn't mean I think 'anything goes' and I'd draw the line on some material both liberal and conservative.
Heck, I'd even take an editorial red pen to some Orthodox liturgical texts if I could ...
Big T Tradition and small t traditions have to provide a framework not a straitjacket.
How flexible we are with all that will vary according to all sorts of factors.
We can state preferences and convictions without causing offence and I know I don't always live up to that standard.
I’m OK with a reverent copy. I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that Godspell (an interesting play on Gospel) made the original better known.
Maybe it should have been better acknowledged? That’s always an issue with uncopyrighted (or no longer copyrighted) stuff. It’s pretty hard to do it in the middle of musical drama.
That’s why it’s done in the playbill/program for the musical.
Stephen Schwartz was always very clear that the lyrics for many of the songs in Godspell, including “Day by Day,” came from the Episcopal Church’s Hymnal 1940. (It was also in the American Presbyterians’ 1955 Hymnbook.)
I have a strong ecumenical
sense and have found it very helpful to worship in congregations which are not my own and in ways with which I’m not accustomed. It’s very rare for me to emerge without some sense of experiencing, often in surprising ways, something of the presence of God.
I would also add that there are many hymns and songs from earlier times which express our relationship with Jesus in equally intimate terms.
'Jesus, lover of my soul, let me to thy bosom fly...' :-) A real fave of mine, and full of the 'I', 'me' stuff which I tell myself is what irks me about some modern worship songs. I'm inconsistent, but that's aesthetics for you...
I’m OK with a reverent copy. I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that Godspell (an interesting play on Gospel) made the original better known.
Maybe it should have been better acknowledged? That’s always an issue with uncopyrighted (or no longer copyrighted) stuff. It’s pretty hard to do it in the middle of musical drama.
That’s why it’s done in the playbill/program for the musical.
Stephen Schwartz was always very clear that the lyrics for many of the songs in Godspell, including “Day by Day,” came from the Episcopal Church’s Hymnal 1940. (It was also in the American Presbyterians’ 1955 Hymnbook.)
That’s very good to hear! I never saw it on stage so I never saw a programme.
Get stroppy when the creed is left out or changed, or if a newfangled version of the Lord's Prayer is used. *yuk*
I’m like that about alterations to the creeds, references to the Trinity, and possibly the Lord’s Prayer if I believe the theology/meaning is changed. I also don’t like having to quickly scan ahead in the leaflet (if a church isn’t using the standard Book of Common Prayer) to make sure that I actually understand and can agree enough with what is being said to say it aloud. (When you find yourself thinking “No! That’s modalism! I can’t say that!” and it also takes you out of the whole ritual mentally…)
@Barnabas62 - it's my fault but I find I'm often taken more literally than I intend on these boards.
I don't have any problem with the idea of a 'journey'. Nor am I suggesting we simply recite Creeds by rote without thinking about them. Far from it.
It's simply that I've heard the term 'journey' bandied around in a somewhat glib way and in some quarters it can mean, 'You don't have to believe anything much it's all about the journey ...'
I'm not actually disagreeing with anything you've posted.
@Baptist Trainfan - yes, I often quote the 'opposite of faith isn't doubt but certainty' thing. I've heard it attributed to an RC source.
I think the idea of a Journey is a very good one. Weren’t they the ones who told us, “Don’t stop believin’”? 😛
Joking aside, I have no problem with “Jesus as our boyfriend”—I’d go further as Jesus is our Bridegroom, and no, I’m not joking. He’s more than that (our Lord, our God, our Master, our Creator, our Redeemer, our Sanctifier), but not less.
Comments
A tangent of course.
I don’t think it’s about contemporary worship style. My local congo rarely sings anything written before 1980!
Nor do I knock the value of personal adoration. Like for example “Oceans”. Or from a slightly earlier period “Breathe”.
Echoing Matt Redman, however, exclusive use of songs of personal adoration can lead to the worship of worship. Which songs like Michael J Smith’s “Agnus Dei” or Andrew Peterson’s “Is He worthy” do not. They focus on the Lord.
Mind you, I probably overstated! What contemporary worship songs have been good at is moving the sung focus more away from songs about the Deity to songs to the Deity. And that’s been a good thing. I don’t want to knock that.
Stroppy as in a bit grumpy, I take it. Not an American expression for me.
It’s completely understandable to feel unsettled when familiar words in worship change. These prayers and creeds have carried us through childhood, crisis, joy, and ordinary Sundays; they become part of how we know God and how we know ourselves. When wording shifts, it can feel like losing a piece of home. Your reaction isn’t resistance to faith—it’s love for what has shaped you. God meets us in both the old and the new, and the heart of worship remains the same: trust, gratitude, and the shared life of the community.
However, the dropping of the filioque clause is going back to the original language that was approved by the Council of Constantine in 381 CE.
The changing of the petition "Lead us not into temptation." to "Save us from the time of trial" is also an attempt to get back to the original koine Greek of the prayer. Personally, I never liked the "Lead us not into temptation." Does God cause temptation? Does not compute, for me. "Save us from the time of trial" recognizes we all face trials through no fault of our own or of God's.
Other ways of saying the same petition
"Do not let us fall into temptation" (Pope Francis preferred this rendition.
Emphasizes God's protection, not God's causing).
"Keep us from the path of temptation."
"Guard us in times of testing" (I kind of like this one).
"Protect us when trials come."
"Do not abandon us to temptation" (Common in French, Spanish and Italian liturgical translations).
At least in the Lutheran liturgy the rubric for reciting the creed says it may be recited at a certain point in the liturgy. Funny, when I grew up it was always after the Gospel reading. Now it is after the sermon/homily. Last Sunday we did not recite it at all.
Now he's in a more liturgical and sacramental setting he doesn't have to do either because God is 'there'.
I can see what he's getting at but feel he's over-stating the case. I would say that God is 'there' in all those settings and indeed is 'present everywhere and fills all things.'
The 'worship of worship' thing can happen anywhere and everywhere. There are plenty of liturgical geeks about who make a big deal about the minutiae of vestments or Psalm settings or particular gestures and rituals.
Whichever Christian tradition we're involved with there are going to be examples of that or parallels of some kind. It's not for us to determine who is worshipping with sincerity and authenticity or otherwise, whether it's drum'n'bass or bells and smells.
That's God's call not ours.
That’s obviously right. And worship is definitely not just songs.
I’m pretty eclectic about the means folk use to practise the presence of God. They all have value and dangers.
I’ve got into trouble for saying this before but I don’t throw stones at other peoples’ windows. My opinion re “Jesus is my boyfriend” is personal and subjective, and not without qualification.
I don't like too much messing around with "the basics" of liturgy (Lord's Prayer etc). These are things where you shouldn't need to be reading from the service booklet (or whatever) as you will know them by heart. That's where good liturgy succeeds - you know enough by heart to stop reading the words and start really praying them - if you know what I mean.
I'm not telling you off.
I've been one of the worst offenders here for dissing other people's worship song lyrics and so on and once drove someone away from the Ship by being crude, snarky and unpleasant - something I deeply regret.
That doesn't mean I think 'anything goes' and I'd draw the line on some material both liberal and conservative.
Heck, I'd even take an editorial red pen to some Orthodox liturgical texts if I could ...
Big T Tradition and small t traditions have to provide a framework not a straitjacket.
How flexible we are with all that will vary according to all sorts of factors.
We can state preferences and convictions without causing offence and I know I don't always live up to that standard.
Mea culpa!
Stephen Schwartz was always very clear that the lyrics for many of the songs in Godspell, including “Day by Day,” came from the Episcopal Church’s Hymnal 1940. (It was also in the American Presbyterians’ 1955 Hymnbook.)
sense and have found it very helpful to worship in congregations which are not my own and in ways with which I’m not accustomed. It’s very rare for me to emerge without some sense of experiencing, often in surprising ways, something of the presence of God.
Try this out for size.
(You may have to be patient with a brief prior advert.)
'Jesus, lover of my soul, let me to thy bosom fly...' :-) A real fave of mine, and full of the 'I', 'me' stuff which I tell myself is what irks me about some modern worship songs. I'm inconsistent, but that's aesthetics for you...
That’s very good to hear! I never saw it on stage so I never saw a programme.
I’m like that about alterations to the creeds, references to the Trinity, and possibly the Lord’s Prayer if I believe the theology/meaning is changed. I also don’t like having to quickly scan ahead in the leaflet (if a church isn’t using the standard Book of Common Prayer) to make sure that I actually understand and can agree enough with what is being said to say it aloud. (When you find yourself thinking “No! That’s modalism! I can’t say that!” and it also takes you out of the whole ritual mentally…)
I think the idea of a Journey is a very good one. Weren’t they the ones who told us, “Don’t stop believin’”? 😛
Joking aside, I have no problem with “Jesus as our boyfriend”—I’d go further as Jesus is our Bridegroom, and no, I’m not joking. He’s more than that (our Lord, our God, our Master, our Creator, our Redeemer, our Sanctifier), but not less.