(sigh) I suppose I'd better say it again, though I got shot at the last time I said this. I know two Christian Jews who deliberately hold Christian seders either within a church or open to the local Christian community, basically for educational purposes. And when I say "Jews," I mean both men are Jewish by birth and upbringing, having become Christian believers as adults. One is a cohen. Both still practice their culture and lead Messianic congregations--in the American sense, where the majority of the members are Jewish by birth and culture--not Gentile wannabees.
Yes, they are aware that many other Jews reject them. I know at least one was rejected by his birth family. They believe that they have the right to follow Jesus and remain Jews, and I think they're correct in that. And I'm definitely not going to argue with them if they wish to hold Jewish Christian seders. I would hope they would not argue with me if my family chooses to celebrate a Christian Tet festival.
If they're Jewish by birth and upbringing I don't see an issue.
The thing is, though, that Messianic Jewish congregations include a lotta people who are NOT Jewish by birth and upbringing, but are identifying as Jewish as part of their desire to feel more closely involved with pre-mil eschatology.
IOW if a given congregation has no born-and-raised Jews, the born-and-raised Gentile Hal Lindsey devotees could still hold a seder that would be considered legitimate by the standards of Messianic Judaism. And born-and-raised Jews who join Messianic congregations are effectively endorsing a definition of "Jewish" which allows that to take place.
I did tell you this wasn't the UK version of Messianic Judaism which I've seen described before. That "wannabe" imitation truthfully freaks me out. No, both men I spoke up hold membership in the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod as does the congregation one of them leads--and you can't get further from pre-mill, pre-trib types than us. In fact, we are very boring amillenialists, meaning that we trust Jesus is coming back but we don't subscribe to any of those weird timelines and charts. We're like the Roman Catholics or the Orthodox. And we do not encourage cultural appropriation.
These are just ordinary Jews who happen to believe in Jesus. Why does this have to be so hard? Live and let live, I say.
(sigh) I suppose I'd better say it again, though I got shot at the last time I said this. I know two Christian Jews who deliberately hold Christian seders either within a church or open to the local Christian community, basically for educational purposes. And when I say "Jews," I mean both men are Jewish by birth and upbringing, having become Christian believers as adults. One is a cohen. Both still practice their culture and lead Messianic congregations--in the American sense, where the majority of the members are Jewish by birth and culture--not Gentile wannabees.
Yes, they are aware that many other Jews reject them. I know at least one was rejected by his birth family. They believe that they have the right to follow Jesus and remain Jews, and I think they're correct in that. And I'm definitely not going to argue with them if they wish to hold Jewish Christian seders. I would hope they would not argue with me if my family chooses to celebrate a Christian Tet festival.
If they're Jewish by birth and upbringing I don't see an issue.
The thing is, though, that Messianic Jewish congregations include a lotta people who are NOT Jewish by birth and upbringing, but are identifying as Jewish as part of their desire to feel more closely involved with pre-mil eschatology.
IOW if a given congregation has no born-and-raised Jews, the born-and-raised Gentile Hal Lindsey devotees could still hold a seder that would be considered legitimate by the standards of Messianic Judaism. And born-and-raised Jews who join Messianic congregations are effectively endorsing a definition of "Jewish" which allows that to take place.
I did tell you this wasn't the UK version of Messianic Judaism which I've seen described before.
Okay, my apologies.
(Just for the record, the theologically pre-mil version of Messianic Judaism is not, as far as I know, a specifically UK thing.)
I wouldn't say it was that strong here in the UK. It is a thing though.
I've always thought of it of more of an American fundamentalist thing.
The only Messianic Jews I've met were American. They were over here on the invitation of some supporters who wanted them to influence a Baptist church in that kind of direction.
The only Messianic Jews I've met were American. They were over here on the invitation of some supporters who wanted them to influence a Baptist church in that kind of direction.
For the record, my own personal assumption(based on possibly incomplete experience) upon hearing the phrase "Messianic Jews" is that the designated devotees are from the pre-mil evangelical sect(s) I was referencing. Not sure if I personally know a phrase that I would use to describe a Jew who accepts Jesus as the Messiah and practices Jewish traditions in that context, but doesn't follow the darbyite eschatology.
(Stuff of this sort was discussed on a thread I started a few years back about Messianic Jews, with that phrase in the title. I was re-reading parts of it a few days back, but I can't recall what conclusions, if any, were reached about nomenclature.)
It's rather hard to see what else we might call them.
Well, based on my experience of the phrase's usage, if "Messianic Judaism" can be used to describe eg. a religious Jew who accepts Jesus as his saviour, but thinks the Book of Revelation is just a political allegory for 1st Century Roman colonialism and nothing else, then I would personally try to come up with a distinct subdesignstion for the darbyite guys.
You can take that a slight grain of salt, because I do have an osmotic style of learning and tend to just browse my way into information and analyses, sometimes without hard verification. Though in addition to those casual gleanings, I personally know one(and only one) Messianic Jew, and his congregation is certainly pre-mil. Personally, I'm inclined to stick with that equivalency, but I don't really care what others do.
One question, though...
If I understand you correctly @Lamb Chopped, these two people you know worship in both a Lutheran and a Messianic Jewish congregation? If so, would you happen to know what larger affiliations, if any, the Messianic synagogue has?
Okay. I've just re-read @Lamb Chopped's post, where she says those two people "lead Messianic congregations".
Lambchopped, did you mean those congregations are operating under the auspices of a Lutheran church(as opposed to a separate network of Messianic Jewish churches)?
The Messianic congregation I'm thinking of (which ONE of them leads, I'm not sure about the other one, though he's also Lutheran-affiliated) is in fact a duly constituted congregation of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. It uses a liturgy that is half-Hebrew, half-English, and I suspect it is not identical with what you'd find at most of its sister congregations that aren't Jewish. Which is fine--our Synod doesn't insist on everybody being the same. I've meant to visit them some Sunday for years now, but being so wrapped up in a Vietnamese congregation at the exact same time, it hasn't happened. Essentially they operate just like all the other ethnic congregations of our Synod--the Hispanic, the Korean, the Sudanese, and so on and so forth.
I should probably have said, I know a third Jewish Christian, a woman, who is also a member of that congregation, or was when I saw her regularly (she's moved on to a different job years ago). Again, another Jew-by-birth-and-upbringing--not these weird premil pretrib people you're talking about. (Still having trouble getting it through my head that such people exist)
The Messianic congregation I'm thinking of (which ONE of them leads, I'm not sure about the other one, though he's also Lutheran-affiliated) is in fact a duly constituted congregation of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. It uses a liturgy that is half-Hebrew, half-English, and I suspect it is not identical with what you'd find at most of its sister congregations that aren't Jewish. Which is fine--our Synod doesn't insist on everybody being the same. I've meant to visit them some Sunday for years now, but being so wrapped up in a Vietnamese congregation at the exact same time, it hasn't happened. Essentially they operate just like all the other ethnic congregations of our Synod--the Hispanic, the Korean, the Sudanese, and so on and so forth.
I should probably have said, I know a third Jewish Christian, a woman, who is also a member of that congregation, or was when I saw her regularly (she's moved on to a different job years ago). Again, another Jew-by-birth-and-upbringing--not these weird premil pretrib people you're talking about. (Still having trouble getting it through my head that such people exist)
Interesting. Thanks. One thing...
...another Jew-by-birth-and-upbringing--not these weird premil pretrib people you're talking about.
For the record, "Jewish by birth and upbringing" and "premil and pretrib Messianic Jews" are not mutually exclusive categories. The founder of Jews For Jesus, for example, was such. Plus, a lot of the congregants then and now, I believe.
I think it's certainly the case that there are Jewish Christians around who don't identify with the pre-trib', Darbyite stuff.
On a more general point, @Lamb Chopped might be surprised to hear that the perception of US Christianity is largely coloured in the 'popular imagination' over here in Europe by all the fundamentalist Darbyite stuff.
That particular constituency has been the 'loudest' I think and also more inclined to engage in missionary work in 'darkest Europe.'
The Eastern Europeans I meet are aware of indigenous Protestant groups in their home countries but tend to equate evangelical forms of Protestantism with US imports - with health-wealth 'prosperity gospel' or slash-and-burn biblical fundamentalist overtones.
I know that US Christianity is more diverse than that but if you come from a Bulgarian village where an American evangelist has set up shop denouncing Orthodoxy and telling everyone that they'll be healed if only they had enough faith ... then you can understand the reaction.
No, I believe you. But there is very little overlap of any between those folks and my church body. I've never been affiliated with Jews for Jesus.
I liked some of Jews for Jesus' (intentionally) humorous tracts back in college in the 80s, and was on their mailing list at one point back then. I'm not sure what their theology is like these days in terms of pre/post/etc.-millennialism or fundamentalism.
re: the definition of "Messianic Christian" in the context of Lutheranism...
I've just been meandering my way through the website of The Apple of His Eye Mission Society, a Messianic Jewish missionary group operating within the LCMS.
The website's a little byzantine to get around in, but googling "Apple of His Eye Mission: Eretz Israel" will get you a page that includes the idea that the Jewish people "were chosen to be missionaries to the world, a light to the Gentiles"; the modern state of Israel traces its ancestry back to biblical Israel; and Jews who don't convert will "face a Christ-less eternity".
The article also includes "the rantings of Ahmadinejad" on a list of threats to the Jewish people, but that's maybe understandable, given Ahmadinejad's previous promotion of holocaust denial. That said, the Giving page solicits funds for "Israel War Relief", with the politics otherwise vague, save for a call to "Stand against terrorism. Stand against antisemitism."
The page is overall well-written and attempts at least a tone of even-handedness, but...yeah. I'm gonna file it with modest confidence under "Christian Zionist", minus the wacky darbyite historical mechanics and hard-linkage between biblical symbols and specific real-world people and events.
No, I believe you. But there is very little overlap of any between those folks and my church body. I've never been affiliated with Jews for Jesus.
I liked some of Jews for Jesus' (intentionally) humorous tracts back in college in the 80s, and was on their mailing list at one point back then. I'm not sure what their theology is like these days in terms of pre/post/etc.-millennialism or fundamentalism.
Their page on the Gaza conflict actually seems fairly similar to that Lutheran group I was discussing above. They clearly think that the modern state of Israel is justified by God's promises in the Old Testament, but pronounce themselves agnostic on whether or not any particular current events have eschatological significance.
Politically, they strive for a neutral tone on the Gaza conflict, professing to help the victims on both sides, but only the ideology and actions of Hamas are explicitly criticized.
Comments
I did tell you this wasn't the UK version of Messianic Judaism which I've seen described before. That "wannabe" imitation truthfully freaks me out. No, both men I spoke up hold membership in the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod as does the congregation one of them leads--and you can't get further from pre-mill, pre-trib types than us. In fact, we are very boring amillenialists, meaning that we trust Jesus is coming back but we don't subscribe to any of those weird timelines and charts. We're like the Roman Catholics or the Orthodox. And we do not encourage cultural appropriation.
These are just ordinary Jews who happen to believe in Jesus. Why does this have to be so hard? Live and let live, I say.
Okay, my apologies.
(Just for the record, the theologically pre-mil version of Messianic Judaism is not, as far as I know, a specifically UK thing.)
I've always thought of it of more of an American fundamentalist thing.
The only Messianic Jews I've met were American. They were over here on the invitation of some supporters who wanted them to influence a Baptist church in that kind of direction.
For the record, my own personal assumption(based on possibly incomplete experience) upon hearing the phrase "Messianic Jews" is that the designated devotees are from the pre-mil evangelical sect(s) I was referencing. Not sure if I personally know a phrase that I would use to describe a Jew who accepts Jesus as the Messiah and practices Jewish traditions in that context, but doesn't follow the darbyite eschatology.
(Stuff of this sort was discussed on a thread I started a few years back about Messianic Jews, with that phrase in the title. I was re-reading parts of it a few days back, but I can't recall what conclusions, if any, were reached about nomenclature.)
It’s very cool. There’s also Murray, the Mitzvah Moose, whose antlers are a menorah!
Well, based on my experience of the phrase's usage, if "Messianic Judaism" can be used to describe eg. a religious Jew who accepts Jesus as his saviour, but thinks the Book of Revelation is just a political allegory for 1st Century Roman colonialism and nothing else, then I would personally try to come up with a distinct subdesignstion for the darbyite guys.
You can take that a slight grain of salt, because I do have an osmotic style of learning and tend to just browse my way into information and analyses, sometimes without hard verification. Though in addition to those casual gleanings, I personally know one(and only one) Messianic Jew, and his congregation is certainly pre-mil. Personally, I'm inclined to stick with that equivalency, but I don't really care what others do.
One question, though...
If I understand you correctly @Lamb Chopped, these two people you know worship in both a Lutheran and a Messianic Jewish congregation? If so, would you happen to know what larger affiliations, if any, the Messianic synagogue has?
Lambchopped, did you mean those congregations are operating under the auspices of a Lutheran church(as opposed to a separate network of Messianic Jewish churches)?
I should probably have said, I know a third Jewish Christian, a woman, who is also a member of that congregation, or was when I saw her regularly (she's moved on to a different job years ago). Again, another Jew-by-birth-and-upbringing--not these weird premil pretrib people you're talking about. (Still having trouble getting it through my head that such people exist)
Interesting. Thanks. One thing...
For the record, "Jewish by birth and upbringing" and "premil and pretrib Messianic Jews" are not mutually exclusive categories. The founder of Jews For Jesus, for example, was such. Plus, a lot of the congregants then and now, I believe.
On a more general point, @Lamb Chopped might be surprised to hear that the perception of US Christianity is largely coloured in the 'popular imagination' over here in Europe by all the fundamentalist Darbyite stuff.
That particular constituency has been the 'loudest' I think and also more inclined to engage in missionary work in 'darkest Europe.'
The Eastern Europeans I meet are aware of indigenous Protestant groups in their home countries but tend to equate evangelical forms of Protestantism with US imports - with health-wealth 'prosperity gospel' or slash-and-burn biblical fundamentalist overtones.
I know that US Christianity is more diverse than that but if you come from a Bulgarian village where an American evangelist has set up shop denouncing Orthodoxy and telling everyone that they'll be healed if only they had enough faith ... then you can understand the reaction.
I liked some of Jews for Jesus' (intentionally) humorous tracts back in college in the 80s, and was on their mailing list at one point back then. I'm not sure what their theology is like these days in terms of pre/post/etc.-millennialism or fundamentalism.
I've just been meandering my way through the website of The Apple of His Eye Mission Society, a Messianic Jewish missionary group operating within the LCMS.
The website's a little byzantine to get around in, but googling "Apple of His Eye Mission: Eretz Israel" will get you a page that includes the idea that the Jewish people "were chosen to be missionaries to the world, a light to the Gentiles"; the modern state of Israel traces its ancestry back to biblical Israel; and Jews who don't convert will "face a Christ-less eternity".
The article also includes "the rantings of Ahmadinejad" on a list of threats to the Jewish people, but that's maybe understandable, given Ahmadinejad's previous promotion of holocaust denial. That said, the Giving page solicits funds for "Israel War Relief", with the politics otherwise vague, save for a call to "Stand against terrorism. Stand against antisemitism."
The page is overall well-written and attempts at least a tone of even-handedness, but...yeah. I'm gonna file it with modest confidence under "Christian Zionist", minus the wacky darbyite historical mechanics and hard-linkage between biblical symbols and specific real-world people and events.
Their page on the Gaza conflict actually seems fairly similar to that Lutheran group I was discussing above. They clearly think that the modern state of Israel is justified by God's promises in the Old Testament, but pronounce themselves agnostic on whether or not any particular current events have eschatological significance.
Politically, they strive for a neutral tone on the Gaza conflict, professing to help the victims on both sides, but only the ideology and actions of Hamas are explicitly criticized.